E122Psi

Just to note that Sonic 2 has been updated with the scan mode ability and both hacks have been given a few bug fixes. Also I've started another little project as a tribute to Cavanaugh:

Likely be a while before it's released, the sprites aren't done yet and the arm programming is in very early stages.

She'll likely have a spin-less move set like Sally, and also have a jet hover ability and the ability to run through walls like Knuckles.

 

Nice, I found it. It works good on Kega; I'll check it on my PSP's emulator soon. Great work!

 

I got through the first four levels and I can tell ya, being able to have a projectile certainly has changed the game. Taking away the closeup attacks makes it feel more like SatAM Sally although being able to shoot another direction other than just horizontally would be nice. Other than that maybe making her jump higher to show he acrobatic skills and you're getting close to making it feel like you are controlling Sally.

 

Again, great job.

 

Thanx.

You'll like the newest update on the wiki then. I've added a downward fire by pressing down and fire while jumping. It also works as a double jump.

Some other minor fixes have also been made, Super Sally looks and acts more impressive and the projectile is compatible with more objects (the only one I'm having trouble with is the Wing Fortress capsule, you still need a close up attack for it).

Well Sally's jump is already fairly higher than Sonic's and she also has a somersault move that's handy in places (I've made it so it can break boxes and barriers, but not enemies, also try using just before finishing a loop). I might tweak things a little, but I want to keep her even with Sonic, the projectile breaks certain parts as it is.

I'm also trying to update the Sonic 1 hack accordingly, but it's proving more finicky than I thought. If I figure out the bugs then MAYBE we'll talk about Sonic 3...

Not to mention Sonic is the key reason Robotnik abuses and emasculates Snively (from what I remember one quote from Drood Henge has Sonic pretty much mock gloat to him it, knowing he'd left him with a lot to answer to his uncle). Snively would probably be quite vehement on paying back Sonic and giving him a taste of what he'd put him through (perhaps why he's often also smug when his uncle is tormenting him or the other Freedom Fighters instead; 'let's see how YOU like it').

I noticed Snively seemed to become an increasing joke to Sonic and the others in Season Two. By Cry of the Wolf, even hyper cautious Sally stops taking him seriously and makes handy work of him. It's almost like a build up to his Not So Harmless moment in Season Three, just when the Freedom Fighters start to think he's a pushover, he puts them in their place and shows just how dangerous and ruthless he can be. If I remember correctly this happened in the comics as well.

I suppose this is a bit where Snively gains sympathy, despite being a thoroughly remorseless weasel, he's has practically a 'geek vs bully' chemistry with most people he's up against, being unimposing and treated as a joke.

We will make them all green, and make countless classic fans mad.

 

 Do you guys agree the proportions could use work as well (three heads tall)? I'd depict them at least with five-space head-proportion? In EoT it does Marvel-Rules (think X-men, Iron Man, Ect) with heroic/idealic proportions (six heads). 

I truthfully prefer the whole cute little cartoon proportioning with big heads and matchstick limbs, the taller, bulkier structure used in the comics I think mostly led to the whole humanoid proportioning that I think led to Sally and Bunnie's whole feminine issues with many fans. I think Sally only came off a bit odd because her hands and feet weren't made any larger than her arms and legs, making them look ridiculously small and frail. Something maybe slightly smaller than Sonic's would have looked fine while keeping some amount of femininity to her.

I kinda like how Tazi San designs Sally, which has the same cartoony SEGA sizes but evens out her proportioning a bit more:

http://www.deviantar...dies-2-73281164

I think it's more the fact that they had started developing Daffy so he was more lucid and ambitious and capable of creating more plots...and then kept on going and going and going until he was near equally limited character (screwy Daffy just runs around heckling people, while pompous Daffy spends every short challenging foes he is completely outmatched by). There's millions of 'screwball' archetypes, but there's just as many 'loser antagonist' ones in Looney Tunes.

I liked Mckimson's version since he kept to that mid point where he could take on winner and loser roles and had his ego and delusions of grandeur without losing his cheerful, prankster side. Stuff like 'Ducking The Devil' and 'Dime To Retire' are innovative scenarios neither extreme tried to take on.

That's my point with such erratic characterizations. Why have one when you can have both?

This is why I like the idea for Sally, the early comics' control freak Sally or the later ones' super lucid and virtuous Sally feel one note on their own and don't really hit the mark in terms of sympathetic personality. Combined correctly however you could get a rounded Ms Vice Girl with an adorable inferiority superiority complex (much as Season One almost achieved).

Usually for each character there's an incarnation of them that, while still maybe not perfect, has the basic setup and characteristics working that shows their potential to be a good character. Tails was great in the OVA, while I liked Amy in early Sonic X (before her Flanderization). Sally was mostly there in Satam Season One (there were still mentioned limitations and inconsistencies, but her characterization seemed about right on average), though there are shades of other points I think add to her character (eg. her more stroppy disposition in the early comics or more developed Straight Man moments in some Season Two episodes, which helped show the two greater extremes of her personality).

Generally when there is a character with many inconsistent depictions, my favored choice is the one that tries most to be a compromise of all or most of them, since not only is it the best of both worlds, but it means they have a more palpable number of facets and depths to their personality (eg. Chuck Jones and Bob Clampett made two very different versions of Daffy Duck that ran on somewhat strict formulas, though Robert Mckimson gets my vote just for trying to merge them both together to make a very versatile character).

I do think that works but as said it would have been more effective if Sally had the same development as Sonic and shown coming to accept that sometimes she needed his support too. In this sense, both approaches learning to work together than against each other, rather than just one learning to co operate with the more reasonable one.

It might just be down to the fact that as you said, Sonic's moments were a lot more conspicuous than Sally's, being a full display of his key flaws and how detrimental they could be (complete with a standard episode Aesop), and so generally ended up with him looking like a bumbling fool. Sally's errors were more subtle, so she never really undignified herself like that or was made to face the same degree of humility concerning her shortcomings, and so lacked the same vulnerability as him. I think that's what some mean by the whole 'perfect' thing, even when she is flawed she never falls flat on her ass like Sonic does. As said before though, it's not as if any of the other Freedom Fighters went through this either (par Antoine, but he rarely ever learned from it).

Haven't done any Nintendo hacks, only have resources for the main four Sonic games for the Genesis (how much you can edit a game is somewhat reliant on resources and tools made for it). I'd advise going on Retro for the SEGA games though, they're very helpful and there's tons of editing tools to help out.

I don't mean that Sonic shouldn't have flawed moments, it's just that whenever the two had a tiffle over spontaneous vs meticulous methods, Sonic was the only one that really got his flawed nature spotlighted. Sonic represents spontaneous and so screwed up mulitple times by being reckless, overconfident and not thinking things through. Sally represents meticulous but never really got the bad side of it spotlighted, just it wasn't a guaranteed win. As with those previous cases, Sally could only make genuine flawed errors by being reckless like Sonic which deviates from the opposite chemistry they tried to make. Almost all the examples of Sally making an oversight you mentioned are Sally being spontaneous and taking a stupid risk like Sonic does in his flawed moments, not making a meticulous plan that is short sighted. Similarly the one time Sonic is her straight man is when he is being the tactical cautious character, not due to his own unique positive aspects.

You said it yourself, Sally foils Sonic thoroughly. She opposes his defining flaws and acts as pacifier to them, specifically because she is his polar opposite. Sonic doesn't really do the same back, he bodyguards her and soothes her when she's down, but because Sally rarely screws up in a manner that opposes his personality, he can't really foil her in the same way, at least not in a way that is specifically down to his unique positive aspects. In Sonic's Nightmare he doesn't oppose Sally's plan (and why should he, it only failed because Ant ruined everything), and for some random reason, he still seemed to be the one getting rammed into his head to be more careful at the end. He sorta got proved right in Sonic Racer, but again that was Antoine's stupidity that led to Sally's team failing. Sally never failed specifically due to acting like Sonic's opposite so he couldn't foil her back to the same degree.

If I can try make a proper comparison, say Sonic had the same characterization in the show as always, but never made mistakes due to his recklessness. In fact all his mistakes were being the exact opposite, being a neurotic worrywart or cowardly, either way something that does not represent his defining approach. Do you think Sal's dynamic with him would have worked so well and her positive aspects would have gotten as much opportunity to shine? Do you think Sonic's flawed side would have developed as well strictly from this method as well?

Also keep in mind the fact it's not just being flawed but accepting you're flawed and trying to learn from it, hence show's having 'morals'. Sonic was put through the fact he made a fatal error and had to make amends and usually apologize for his idiocy. Aside from Secret Scrolls, Sally was never called out for making a mistake or under any notion that she had to change her approach or show humility, and as said, even at that time it was skewed due to her having Sonic's flaw at the time. I think this is why, as you discussed in another thread, Sally can be seen as 'perfect' AND 'a bitch' at the same time, she can be flawed in her ways, but the universe skews things so she doesn't need to face consequences for them, while Sonic and Ant can't get away with nuthin'.

 

Welcome again E22Psi! It's nice to have you here!

 

Anyway, while I do agree with you overall that her cautiousness winning out is overplayed, there are times where Sonic's haphazard way wins out; it's just not as quoted by fans. Just look at the first part of Blast to the Past where he jumps off the floating island, which saves their lives, and then if you noticed in part 2 Sally makes the same judgement more or less by having Sonic Launch them up to the Destroyer; it ends up that Sonic saves them again. Also, in Cry of the Wolf it's Sonic who finally destroys the test pod after a couple of failures on Sally's part. Another one is in Sonic and the Secret Scrolls where Sonic chastises Sally and company for flying in the Freedom Stormer and ends up saving their lives when it almost crashes off the cliff. In Drood Henge both Sonic and Tails constantly prove Sally's cautiousness wrong, In Warp Sonic Sonic made up for Sally's short-sightedness that almost cost their ability to make power rings and A big one is in Super Sonic where she doesn't want to risk getting Lazaar's computer, but again if it wasn't for Sonic's "devil may care" attitude Robotnik would have run completely a muck with the computer and the series would've ended there.

I could keep on going with more instances where Sonic's "fly by the seat of your pants way" defeats Sally's cautious way or flat-out saves them from her mistakes. It's just those instances where he is wrong gets more attention or are more memorable scenes; it is also Sally haters fruit picking instances. Heck, if I only focused on certain places in series I could make a case for Antoine being a courageous hero.

 

Thanx very much.

The thing is that most of Sonic's failed moments are all out displays of his flawed personality. Game Guy and Sonic Conversation are specific moments he acts before he thinks and directly ignores Sally's strategy to take things cautiously. At the end he suffers repercussions that almost get him killed and shows humility (or in Game Guy's case, ignores it until Sally gets a small karmic last laugh).

I'm not saying Sally's tactical approach never failed, but it was more just a case of a solid enough plan that still got legitimately outsmarted (or Antoine ruining it), it was not a showcase of a fatal flaw like Sonic's reckless arrogant pratfalls. Drood Henge shows her taking a risk has advantages, but not really in the sense her own direction makes a big mistake, and even if it did we'll never know, because Sally proved a lot more reasonable than Sonic and caved in when he reasoned with her (compared to the multiple instances Sonic ignores Sal until he almost gets the entire team killed). The others were them just going through with a plan (that Sonic agreed with anyway) and then taking another when it failed, not Sally doing something stupid that Sonic plays the Straight Man towards. he was always the character placed in the 'character screws up and learn's the episode's moral' formula (granted this wasn't just against Sally, none of the other Freedom Fighters really had their flaws challenged and forced to overcome them, par maybe Antoine in Hooked On Sonics). Meanwhile Sally was the one who always had to babysit Sonic and make sure he didn't do anything dumb.

I don't really feel Warp Sonic and Sonic and the Secret Scrolls are the same because that's more Sally becoming randomly reckless like Sonic than stubbornly keeping to her meticulous ethics, which if anything only furthered the 'taking risks is bad' pattern. In the end that's still a flaw that represents Sonic more than Sally so she is still far less flawed than he is. They shown other flaws like her over competitiveness with Sonic a bit, but I don't think they are as well defined as when she foils him. not to mention don't really display Sonic's clarity as well since not only do they randomly just convert his personality to being cautious, but he's in asshole mode in both them (We're not even implied if Sally actually learned anything from Warp Sonic anyway, especially since Sonic provoked it by acting like a possessive tool throughout the whole thing).

Being meticulous isn't always a positive trait. It can stem from equally severe personality defects like being controlling, neurotic or outright obsessive compulsive. (Sally had shades of these flaws, but it never really led to fatal consequences like Sonic's constantly did). Look at characters like Twilight Sparkle from Friendship is Magic or Rabbit from Winnie The Pooh, meticulous cautious characters who have straight man moments, but just as often cause HUGE problems as a result of their 'by the book' attitude and are made to accept their shortcomings.

Hi there.

Nice to be here. I'm a member of several other Sonic forums if anyone recognizes me, as well as a fan artist and ROM hacker.

I'm quite talkative (especially about my own opinions) so get ready for a long day...