TheRedStranger

 

 

 

Actually...Sega should just step back and let Ian do his own thing with the comic.  People liked "Sonic Other-M" because he could tell a relatively good story while still remaining faithful to the source material.  Hell...I thought playing off when Knuckles was a villian in Sonic 3 to make him a villian in Other-M was pretty clever.  The only reason people hate Ian right now is because even I could tell there was a story Ian WANTED to write...but Sega isn't letting him.  Worse yet...this seems to be coloring people's view of the old Other-M comic since I've seen those who once liked the comic now badmouthing it.

 

Just for the record, I never liked Other M.  While I agree the new main cast was a nice touch, and it had a really in depth story with amazing characterization, it just wasn't my cup of tea.  I didn't like that Two of my favorite characters were turned evil (Knuckles and Tails) without good reason (Miles was just evil.  Period.  And Knuckles's reasonings were limited at best), and too often the Comic felt that Everyone was on the run.  Part of the Charm of SatAM is even though the heroes were at the disadvantage, their victories seemed to mean something.  Other M seemed to focus the other way, victories were fleeting, and the defeats seemed to have more lasting effects.  Also everybody died.  A lot.  And I know sometimes you can't make a comic without killing a few X-Men, but back to the victories scenario, the deaths ALWAYS felt wasted.  Bark dies saving people...but achieves relatively nothing.  Robotnik dies trying to save the team, Bean dies anyways.  In fact the original outcome was everyone died so they sent Sonic home, just for him to use Zonic to cheat and fix everything (hey...Ian was retconing back then too).  

 

Now again, I'm not saying it was BAD, in fact it was really good for a fan story, but it just wasn't my cup of tea.

Just had to get that outta the way. 

 

I agree 100% about letting Ian do his own thing.  

 

Everyone keeps blaming him for everything that is going "bad" but it isn't him.  The Editors have changed the direction, and SEGA has made a few Mandates.  What Ian is actually doing is FIXING said problems.  SEGA or Editors make this demand, Ian manages to squeeze it into the story AND STILL manages to keep the comic interesting.

 

 Bring your issues about Other M to the Fan Fiction thread we have been discussing on. I'd appreciate your insights.

  I agree letting Ian have creative Freedom with Sonic. I still see him as one of us, and he cares about his work (unlike SEGA). I would love to see half these counterproductive yappers forced in his SEGA-weighted shoes. 

 

 

 

I really don't know who the heck is running Sega, but they've been incompetent ever since they hamstrung Sega of America. According to what I've read Sega of Japan was jealous of SOA, so they basically started to micro-manage SOA. Here you have the Sonic franchise, which was Sega's attempt to get a foothold in the U.S. market, so they make this red, white, and blue Hedgehog (after a few stupid other ideas) and tell SOA to do their stuff. And did they ever; they completely fixed the details and made him exactly what would sell in America. We get awesome games, SatAM, and different comic books, they had it all. And then what does SOJ do? They say essentially "us here in Japan know better than you do over there in America" and basically turn an awesome franchise into a mediocre one. I don't think Sega could do any worse if their competitors ran the company; what a bunch a pillocks.

 

The reasons why, I heard, was because communications between them werent that good (and one of the SoA executives possibly being racist). SoA did create a few games for the series, but that all ended when "Sonic X-Treme" entered the picture. The game was a hell of a production to make (some developers fell gravely ill from exhaustion), and the game was ultimately cancelled when it failed to impress its superiors. It was then decided that things would be easier for SoJ to develop the games instead, while SoA simply promoted them.

 

How ironic that their latest game closely resembles this tragic disaster.

 

 

 Bad thing is that SOJ didn't listen to Tom Kalinski and his razor and blades model which got them as far as it did in the first place. SOJ was so focued on outdoing their competion's hardware to make quality games. SOA couldn't really make Extreme all that Extreme in the first place, they were console hopping to much. Third party developers hated them for this. Meanwhile, people were buying consoles like the CD then the 32X just to have replaced a year later with The Saturn and Then The Dream Cast.! Meanwhile Nintendo did it right. They waited and top the 16 bit golden age with a bang and jumped straight into 64 bit system (ignoring the Virtual Boy, which unlike SEGA would have done, tanked it before it could drag them down into the red ink).   

 

 Racism...oh man. Gotta here more about this. I thought the console wars were dramatic as it is... If this story gets any more heated then we will have a corporate Game of Thrones on Our Hands  .

 

 

You can read a lot about it here, but apparently it was Sega CEO Nakayama that liked the idea of "only Japanese making the decisions." Interestingly enough it was Sega Technical Institute in America who was responsible for Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic and Knuckles, and Sonic Spinball. After the whole Sonic X-Treme debacle where SoJ kept up their meddling, (sound familiar), that it moved fully to Japan.

 

 One of the Japanese crew actually defected to SOA from what I heard that's why there is a split between Sonic CD and Sonic 2. SoA deserves more credit, it seems the true Sonic team we know and love was liquidized in 1998. SA and SA2 were good, but it was too late to save the company from bankruptcy. I still think if they trusted their fellows at SoA more Sonic's legacy would be ten fold what it is.

 

 

 I feel these hypothetical American Canon games would quickly overshadow the current ones if done well (and seeing the story quality of the games as of late, that wouldn't be hard). A whole new type of Sonic series would get a lot of coverage in the first place. If it is pulled off real well you would have consumer soverignty in your favor and a money-hungry SEGA by throat.  The tables could turn.

 

Also if works like Sea3on keep being pumped out of decent enough quality and quantity you could easily have SEGA on the edge. Here they are with a market oppurtunity and the fans are just producing their own fresh work to please themselves. Your market suffers unless you appeal to what these writers are appealing to, a story - a series of reasons and plot points that drive the gameplay and make it meaningful.

 

I think the most capable and creative of the fandom should start visualizing themselves in a constant but passive-agressive competition with SEGA and manipulate their intrests for profit towards a direction of story quality and aquiring a solution (or series of solutons) to the above problem. Ironically we should be doing what they did with Nintendo, undercutting their market share with more punchy and guttsy work than a sacharrine italian plumber that repeatedly saves a codependant bimbo than saving multi-colored mcguffins and racing against squaky two-dimensional hawkmen. 'Sega did what Nintendidn't' and got around 65% of the market in the mid-90's. And that stopped the monopoly on games, forcing Nintendo into producing better quality work (eg. a mediocre Zelda 2 vs an amazing A Link The Past). Maybe if a few rise up to make something amazing (Se3on and other possible works like it) these fans will become what Segain't. And that will force Sega's hand. 

 

 

I really don't know who the heck is running Sega, but they've been incompetent ever since they hamstrung Sega of America. According to what I've read Sega of Japan was jealous of SOA, so they basically started to micro-manage SOA. Here you have the Sonic franchise, which was Sega's attempt to get a foothold in the U.S. market, so they make this red, white, and blue Hedgehog (after a few stupid other ideas) and tell SOA to do their stuff. And did they ever; they completely fixed the details and made him exactly what would sell in America. We get awesome games, SatAM, and different comic books, they had it all. And then what does SOJ do? They say essentially "us here in Japan know better than you do over there in America" and basically turn an awesome franchise into a mediocre one. I don't think Sega could do any worse if their competitors ran the company; what a bunch a pillocks.

 

*edit*

You're definitely right, it's up to us fans to run with the flag; SEGAin't gonna do it. That's why I support Sea3on!

 

 Majority of the stock in the company is owned by one fellow called Sammy I do believe. He's rather notorious throughout the fandom. When people petitioned to get Ryan Drummond back on board as Sonic, the creative director for the company (who was a fan like us) sprung on the oppurtunity.  Through a series of interviews and meets with long distances traveled and time and money spent, the fans almost got what they wanted. But this one guy (dropped the ball right in front of God and everyone. Right when the fans were most hyped to see the return of Drummond as Sonic this cheapskate continually refused to pay Drummond's union-fee. And ruined everything. 

It gets worse. The fee was measly, but under investigation he allegedly had been spending company money on 5-star hotels, steak diners, all the while doing their bussiness talks. Drummond and SEGA get their pockets drained and the fans get let down. 

 Top it off. Craig did the job for "donuts and coffee money". Unfair for him too.

 I suspect SEGA's board of directors are senile, disconnected from their product and sub-culture that consumes it,  or just inept bussiness men. First rule of making a bussiness is to "plug the holes" at the bottom of your metaphorical customer bucket. You gotta retain your consumers as well as expand your numbers. If it's just a constant wash through you will only maintain or most likely loose profit over time. Moral of your story: your fans are like your daily vitamins to your bussiness they help it grow big 'n' strong, or a lack of them will give it rickets.

acstrife, on 06 Sept 2013 - 8:50 PM, said:

Alright guys, seriously lets try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum.

Alextendo, you are way out of line.  You need to cool down.

Indeed, argumentum ad homenum (argument agains the man, not the argument: eg. You are a stupid meany head, and therefore wrong in your cosmology) will only cloud our minds on this important issue and be counterproductive overall.

 Alex and Reed, if you have personal problems with me take them up with me personally like civilized young men. I'd rather you cuss me out and call me names in private than offend the rest of this community with your bullying, playground antics.

So far I have seen only seen insults and assertions from my opponents - neither careful nor considerate explanations, sources, evidence, or any simulacrum to rational argumentation. If they can't take the heat on one issue they just flee to the next.

I believe they need little more logical rope to which to hang their own ethos and logos within the boundries of this issue... It seems they have already done most of the work for me.  I think I have proven my point (especially within my former qoutes of great scientific men and evidential discussion of my most carefully studied field of science as both a student and journalist: biology)  that "religious" people can be rational, scientific, and loving; and, that "irreligious" people can be the opposite, even to the level of ideological inquisition and intellectual imperialism. Ultimately these labels are always in some way imperfect, for faith and science are a forever concatenated: every formulated hypothesis, every notion, every move we make is not made in the absolute trust of our own intellect but a reaching out beyond it in order to learn more. It's based in our prime presupossitions as paticular persons.

"From a knowledge of God's work we shall know Him."

 Robert Boyle, founder of modern chemistry.

 As for those who defended me thank you.

As for those who have tried to offend me, I forgive you.

 As for those who have personal questions about this topic but don't want to get in a flame war, well, all you have to do is PM me. I will either awnser these questions to the best of my abilities, or lead you to writing from professionals that specialize in the inquired subject.

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:31, Jesus.

 God bless, Fellow Freedom Fighters.

So this is my living space for the next 9 months

 

I remember living in a dorm...I hated it. It's actually an intresting and dramtic story though.

By the looks of it.

 

You know since we have a game, comic, SatAM, other one i got one (im counting this one as other)

 

How would you have ended Sonic X

For the 4 Kids Version...at episode one.

 Obama manipulated uncritical people with buzzwords and hollow concepts to get into office. "Hope" and "change" are meaningless terms without academic clarification and proper execution. If people just asked questions like "What the hell do you mean by change, what are you changing, and how does it benefit America?" We'd might have someone a bit more competent in the Whitehouse.   

 He is indeed a stubborn anti-colonial ideologue with a whole lot of personal baggage that deludes his sense of policy. Those are most volatile of politicians (IRS scamming religious charities and conservatives, Gaza, and a foul-mouthed sycophant for a vice-president show how inept and ideologically bankrupt his current administration is). He has no idea of economic, social, and political consequences. Overall, he can't see the world for what it is, but what he wants it to be...so much danger in that.

I am an army brat, my father and my father's father are and were military men. I have many people I care about who wear my nation's uniform, and all of them call him one thing: "Zero". Why? Because he has zero military experience (seriously, he is making a mess of our military, cutting important budgets left and right, and he is casting a ballot to throw our young men and women into another war?). He is also doing soldiers very dirty...half of my friends after all their toil overseas are just being heartlessly furloughed by old Dr. Obamnik. Obamacare for one is a giant "cool story bro", naive and destructive (I know of two businesses that I frequent are going bankrupt and three people who are forced to file bankruptcy because it's just about to happen - imagine when it hits the fan. Our budget can't take the strain...

 I am a CLT (a community living tech) who works with the disabled so they can achieve independence when it comes to basic life skills; my current client needs the social-safety net because he has special needs. When that social security is divided up into nothing, he and various others like him might not have the needed resources to survive or thrive. His yearly budget is already in danger... Instead, people who are perfectly capable of getting healthcare (or at least save some money in an emergency budget like I do - seriously do this, you will be doing yourself a favor) won't be getting it. Also, when some idiot gets drunk and crashes his car, knocks someone up, or gets an STD - guess who is paying the medical bill, us. When we are busy sharing wealth in a consumerist culture, it quickly becomes consumed. The individuals must produce capital by his works for the community, if he wishes to prosper.

To put it simply: If you are capable, if you don't work you don't eat.

 I'd encourage willful charity and social policy that supported altruists and philanthropy over a forced mass-socialism any day. Sad thing about Obama's welfare policies is that they don't fare well for those who actually need it, the elderly and the otherwise disabled.

 I agree Romney would have done better, he is a man of management and logistically capable. Though I still (after thoroughly studying their doctrine) would be hesitant to have a Mormon in the Whitehouse. I'd fear the connection to the LDS church would cloud his judgment when it comes to social policy.

 Look at it this way: A plumber might keep up appearances, he might speak of lofty things, but ultimately what matters is if he can whip out a plunger and get crap done. And if he or his cronies are making up names and setting people against each other in mindless debate, than he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 I vote Princess Sally. She'd get the job done! She always does. Our first furry president!   

Shit, I probably should have made the question "How would you write Sonic?". I meant if you were in Sonic's shoes what would you do as the question originally, if you don't want to answer that then do how would you write Sonic then, I'm flexable.

If I was Sonic, I'd first buy a pair of pants...I'm just too modest to be running around dressed up in only dress gloves and track sneakers.

 Then I would actually kill Eggman. Not kidding. I'd run half-across the world then just punch his face in. Then I'd surprise Scourge... 

 Scoruge: "In the end you are no different than me, Sonic... All it takes is one bad day-"

*Spin-dashes his head open*

 Sonic:"And I might just do something just like that. Now, who's up for some chilidogs?"

*Loots Scourge's corpse of it's wallet*

 Sonic: "Scrourge is buying! "

I honestly thank God I am not in Ian's postion...

 As fans we might not be able to profit from our fan-story's and art but we can express our love for the frachise any way we want without executive meddeling. One wrench in the gear can ruin everything.  SEGA should keep it's mouth shut and trust the writers a bit more and give them more slack to do intresting things with the characters.  

 I actually wish they'd break off and do another comic that can shake up the continuity and deviate in other complex and dramatic directions. It could be as different as The Brave and The Bold and Batman The Animated Series from the 90's. Same characters nut different conclusions, and different tone.

 

"...At least it's not Amy...(Yes, I don't like Sonamy, kill me!)"

 

You get props in my book. Though i gotta admit i would have rather have Amy than Elise... AND THAT IS SAYING SOMETHING

 

Goodness knows I wouldn't date my codependant stalker if I had one...

Roboticization. How does it work?

 

 

 Some very well-sourced observations!

 

 I find it odd though that they seem pretty happy that he was dead (especially Bunny). And that they knew what the Wind Tunnel could do. There is enough evidence to say Sonic had malice of forethought, just the once maybe. As for some intances I could see how he might not risk it at the expence of others (the spin-dash is a dangerous technique, you sacrifice accuracy for power, since your vision is obscured). I for one wouldn't want to accidently get my past self, friends, or family killed. As for Heads or Tails, well, would you really murder someone in front of an orphaned, scarable, child primed for deep mental scarring while in an all around life threatening situation, or would you bail with the kid to fight another day? Perhaps, Robotnik's cybernetics make those attacks impractical. And perhaps they prefer him alive for one reason, his brain. They want to know how the newer model roboticzors work...what way is better than...coaxing... it out of the mouth of it's very maker?

 

 Roter was also using hyberbole. Catching Robotnik would be more honor-worthy and challanging than killing him off right (though absurdly impractical and contrived, which was what Roter was going for rhetorically). It might reveal that they don't have a prefrence for killing and would love another option, but the alternative might still be on the table if the chips are down.

 

 As for any other in-story explanations as to why they did "not take the shot?"

 

Ps. I'd kill him in a heart-beat, but I wouldn't enjoy it. He has such a wonderful sense of humour!  Just look how he punked Antoine!

 

 

For me Bunny sounded more amazed and/or in disbelief by what had just happened rather than happy, but that's my interpretation. As for malice with the wind tunnel I cannot say for certain if their ends were for Robotnik and company to be flung off the cliff, and when it went off on them earlier in the episode they were able to overpower the wind. Plus, it's not like they could aim the wind tunnel.

 

Honestly outside of the fact that this was a Saturday morning cartoon that you don't normally see deaths; I would agree with Uncle Ben, if they had no choice. For all of his faults Ken Penders had Sonic pegged as far as having Sally die or severely injured to make him go over the edge like he did in Endgame. If you hurt someone Sonic loved severely enough or killed him/her I think he would definitely kill.

 

*edit*

After looking over the scene in question I never heard or saw anything that indicated malice. It was more along the lines that they were trying to get rid of the stealth orb that was tracking them. If anything it was Sally's plan to use the wind tunnel and Sonic went along, so if there was any premeditation of killing Robotnik it was Sally that had most of the intent. I also looked at Bunny again and it was definitely disbelief she was emoting. Although the way Sonic said "Believe it." did have a certain harsh tone to it.

 

 Makes sense. My inner villan has always told me, that Sally would be the easiest to sway to the dark-side via a series of morally questionable decisions in the name of the greater good.

 "I sense great hate in you, young Acorn..."

 Sounds like Sonic is please with that fact. *rubs hands together* "Good...good..."

" Love of this     is inversly proportional to the sensible appraisal of this  , because of this   (especially in the case of teenaged, Sonic-X fangirls)." -

The First Law of Sonsal.

I think I might've indirectly unvieled some of my personal biases....

 

I don't believe she is.  However she does tend to lean on the lucky side and things tend to go her way and she tends not to make mistakes.  

 

Now the reason for this is because she quadruple checks her work, plans very carefully, and Sonic tends to save the day anyways.  Read the comic or watch the show you'll see she makes mistakes, has her own problems, and is very much not a Mary Sue. 

 

Totally agree, it's weird how people just miss all of her mistakes.

One of my favourites was when she chastised Sonic for jumping off the floating island in Blast to the Past, but then later on she has him shoot up the sliding tree to get aboard the destroyer not thinking about how they would land; she then begs for Sonic to think of something and he uses the anti gravity in his shoes to keep them from being killed, but that's in SatAM, not the comic.

 

 Sonic and Sally are as similar as they are different. For all their differing good qualities, they are still both headstrong, bold, wisecracking snarks with a bit of an ego. Due to their positions that gets expressed diffrently among them, but it is still there. Another example is when Sonic saved the Freedom Stormer, Sally wanted to refuse and deny that she needed Sonic and Sonic refused to let her get away with it (the "we were in a plane"/ but "where would you land?" argument). Both of them wanted to show they had the guts and the glory to keep the situation in check, but in the end Sally had to admit Sonic had indeed saved them from a bad flub.

 Dude, I'd be with Sonic on this one...nobody would get me on that crapsack "air-jaloppy". I'll take the ole ground transport. 

The reason why the games are getting considerably bland is due to Sonic Team playing it safe. They tried making dark and epic games with lots of drama, but the end result was a bunch of flack from snobby, nit-picky critics who hated the new approach and wanted to go back to the basics.

 

For some games, the storytelling worked (i.e. SA1, SA2, Rush, Rush Adventure, Black Knight), while others didn't (i.e. Shadow, 06, Secret Rings). Unfortunately, the ones that didn't work received the most attention and were used as prime examples for the critics to attack stories and characters in the Sonic series.

 

The ones that did receive praise were the ones with hardly any story in them (i.e. the Advance series, Sonic 4, Colors, Generations). Because of their success' both critically and financially, it's easy to see why Sonic Team is heading in this direction.

 

As of the moment, the Archie comics are the only series left that tries keeping it dramatic.

  Story will always be more marketable in the end. We are seeing the market change towards this. This isn't the 90's anymore. The gaming-phenomena is now a permenant hallmark of global, post-modern culture and it's market is vast.  Look at cinematic games like Uncharted, Mass Effect, the Last of Us, and The Walking Dead. The market is trending towards theses games. Japanese game companies need to realize that continutiy is needed for a good momentum for promising succeessive sales. If you make stories more interconnnected and flow from one to the next, you assure fans will buy the next if they enjoyed the last. Look at the Zelda series for example and it's horrifically fractured canon, you can buy one game and then skip the rest. The story doesn't invite you to enjoy the next adventure or look into the past ones. You would have more dedicated fan base otherwise, and the hype you could coax out of your community would be tremendous. With the internet culture as it is, your fans would be your best advertisers.

 I have seen a lot of good critques out their that urge these frachises to step up their game story wise, despite their critique of the games aformentioned. I know a brainless sucker is born everyday and they will happily buy a story crafted for the lower common demoninator, but that is a fickle audience to have (when the new COD comes out they'll ignore a good platformer and then sell their kidney (or parent's kidney) to get it, even though it's the same as the last, and the last, and the last...).  Gamers are a sub-culture now, and that sub-culture is maturing and soon they will want more. Either give them an amazing linear story (Arkham) interactive story (Mass Effect), or the ability to create their own story (Minecraft, The Sims). There is your most stable market.

Also, there is a hidden option here, a road not commonly taken. And you could split the frachise into two consistant continuties.  Just like DC and Marvel do with Batman and Spider Man, create a Sonic continuity for one group and then another, much like story-lite Megaman and and story-heavy Megaman X. It will take time, but I see the market is rapidly shifting towards the cinematic-quality of story-telling. In fact I see games having the power to transcend the cinema, you can control the pacing and outcome of the story in a video game. Imagine a Sonic game that had the Satam tone and the open world of Arkham? Tell me, would you buy that? Would you want other's to buy it and slip the word to all your friends?

 The comic's style adn tone is the future of Sonic as a whole, I feel it in my bones. The fans need to realize that they have just as much responsibilty for maintaining the franchise as SEGA. Every critque must be constructive, feedback must be constant, and the ones that aren't helping better the franchise and are just nitpicking  should just be pounced and verbally buried by a legion of rational minds. Don't ask what Sega can do for you, ask what you can do to manipulate the capitalist market to get what works. It's called consumer soverignty, excercise that power. The better the communication between producer and consummer, the better the product. In a broad and maturing market and burgeoning culture that is hungry for greater stories and advancing quality, the potential for a high-grossing story-driven Sonic game, is as inevitable as a sunrise. Ian Flynn has already indirectly admitted in interviews that he has collaborated with Sega for certain games. Sonic The Dark Brotherhood, actually had Swatbots and a deeper story. Too bad the production was rushed, that game could have been triple A.