13 replies to this topic

[Frieza2000]

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Maybe this has been brought up before, but I've never heard it. Someone linked me a video about 4th dimensional topology today and it dawned on me that the Acorn family crest is not a vertical infinity sign. It is, in fact...A MOBIUS LOOP!

 

This may actually be more relevant than just a cute little math reference. Aside from speaking English, we know that the citizens of the Acorn kingdom also call things by the same name as us, so it's likely that this shape is also called a mobius loop (or mobius strip) in their culture, obviously in reference to the name of their planet. It would seem rather audacious to me for a single kingdom to use a symbol for the whole world as their flag unless that kingdom was global. It'd be like a country in our world using the planet Earth as their flag. Unless you're the UN or some kind of world government, you just don't do that, or at least you put something else along with it so that it doesn't look like you consider yourself to represent the whole planet.

 

We know that there were at least two opposing political bodies on Mobius, likely two kingdoms, because the Great War had just ended in BttP. Until now I've assumed that there were probably several kingdoms across the world and that Robotnik just started with this one and, having used it to build his army for him, usurped it and went on to conquer the other kingdoms. But this discovery suggests to me that these kingdoms were the two kingdoms, or even that the Acorn kingdom was the united global power and the war was against some kind of secession, and once Robotnik had suceeded in crushing one as War Minister, he took the other in a coup.

 

What other significance do you think the mobius loop might've held for the people, that the Acorn family would've seen fit to use it as their sigil? Maybe the way that both sides are joined in a continuous strip signified unity or unbroken continuity. It's a really neat little detail!

[furrykef]

Interesting!

The ones on the banners don't look like proper Möbius strips -- it needs an odd number of twists (usually just one) to be one-sided. The one inside the book, though, does appear to have a proper twist, so I'm guessing it is indeed intended to be a Möbius strip.

The one on the book's cover is more ambiguous. It looks like it might have a twist at the underside of the intersection, which is near where it appears inside the book.

I'm not sure the writers thought about the implications of using a symbol with global significance for one kingdom. It's probably just a cutesy sort of easter egg for people who are paying attention.

[Misk]

I never noticed that, that's really neat.

Another possibility (assuming the writers did it intentionally) is that the Great War resulted in the total annexation of the opposing kingdom, leaving Acorn as just one.

If that was the case it would explain how taking control of one kingdom = taking control of the world.

[HeavensChampion]

I never noticed that, that's really neat.

Another possibility (assuming the writers did it intentionally) is that the Great War resulted in the total annexation of the opposing kingdom, leaving Acorn as just one.

If that was the case it would explain how taking control of one kingdom = taking control of the world.

Then what did Robotnik mean by "take over every inch of this planet" in the final episode? Clearly, there are other parts of Mobius not under his control.

[Misk]

I never noticed that, that's really neat.

Another possibility (assuming the writers did it intentionally) is that the Great War resulted in the total annexation of the opposing kingdom, leaving Acorn as just one.

If that was the case it would explain how taking control of one kingdom = taking control of the world.

Then what did Robotnik mean by "take over every inch of this planet" in the final episode? Clearly, there are other parts of Mobius not under his control.

Well I mean, it's not like taking over the capital of a country instantly gives you control of the whole country itself right away (unless you manipulated the system). But ti does mean there's no longer a central authority to coordinate defenses or lend aid to other cities and villages as they fall one by one.

[Frieza2000]

I doubt this is something Ben came up with. It was probably one of those things he talked about where an artist excitedly dragged him downstairs to show off what they'd done. I'm just speaking from a strictly in-story perspective.

 

Well I mean, it's not like taking over the capital of a country instantly gives you control of the whole country itself right away (unless you manipulated the system).

 

Or unless it's so centralized that the elimination of a handful of leaders would effectively disable the rest of the nation (for example, a country of mindless robots run by two humans). Side note: this is the only way an offensive guerrilla war by a force with such vastly inferior numbers and resources has any practical hope of success. Taking out Robotnik himself was the FF's only chance of winning. Barring deus ex machina of course.

[MoKat]

Maybe this has been brought up before, but I've never heard it. Someone linked me a video about 4th dimensional topology today and it dawned on me that the Acorn family crest is not a vertical infinity sign. It is, in fact...A MOBIUS LOOP!

 

Hrmm...I don't recall that bein' brought up here before. Then again, there's a lot I don't recall.  Heh, good catch there, Frieza.

I agree with Kef tho'; it's probably "just a cutesy sort of Easter egg for people who are paying attention."

(I also agree with Misk about how taking over a country's capital doesn't instantly give ya control over the whole country.) 

[RedAuthar]

I never noticed that, that's really neat.

Another possibility (assuming the writers did it intentionally) is that the Great War resulted in the total annexation of the opposing kingdom, leaving Acorn as just one.

If that was the case it would explain how taking control of one kingdom = taking control of the world.

Then what did Robotnik mean by "take over every inch of this planet" in the final episode? Clearly, there are other parts of Mobius not under his control.

Well I mean, it's not like taking over the capital of a country instantly gives you control of the whole country itself right away (unless you manipulated the system). But ti does mean there's no longer a central authority to coordinate defenses or lend aid to other cities and villages as they fall one by one.

Considering that the majority of the show takes place relatively close to robotropolis, and there are places Robotnik wasn't familiar with, such as Lazaar's tomb-thing, Robotnik likely doesn't control even half of Mobius, even if he has taken over.

[Frieza2000]

It was never shown that Robotnik was unfamiliar with the Forbidden Zone. The fact that he had an entry in his database documenting the legend of Lazar, including the exact location of his tomb, suggests the opposite. I can't think of any places he was tellingly unfamiliar with besides the legendary Floating Island, which even Sally thought was a myth. He even knew about Dragon's Nest.

 

I've actually gone through the whole script before and made a list of items for and against the idea of Robotnik's sphere of influence being global.

 

Global
-Robotnik claims to have roboticized every other living thing except Freedom Fighters in Sonic Past Cool. This is clearly wrong because we later see rats in Robotropolis and flying fish in the Great Forest, but that he would even think it suggests that he's established a presence in every part of the globe.
-The toast from Sonic Racer, “To a free Mobius,” suggests a global scope for Robotnik's empire.
-Sonic confirms mild toxic rain occurs worldwide in Sonic's Nightmare.
-Robotnik believed he had already roboticized all of the dragons.
-“Satellite photos” detected Void activity. That he is able to maintain spacecraft monitoring random places in The Great Unknown suggests that he has a lot of them and that there are no rival groups with weapons that can shoot his satellites down.

 

Limited
-Freedom Fighter uprising on the northern frontier in No Brainer. Frontier of what? His controlled terrirory, or their immediate area?
-In No Brainer, Chuck says the Roboticizer holding cells were full the day before, indicating that Robotnik is still catching quite a few Mobians.
-Mention of a Robotnik “Outpost” in Cry of the Wolf is a further suggestion that his territory has limits, but, like frontier, could be interpereted in a relative sense.

 

All considered, I think the evidence is in favor of global domination. It was always the unspoken impressing the show gave anyway. Anything you guys think I missed? While I'm at, this is as good an excuse as any to attach a file I put together containing the coalesce transcripts of all the episodes, with a few corrections (the transcripts on this site are pretty bad - I'm gradually fixing things in my copy as I notice them).

Attached Files

•  All SatAM episode transcripts.doc   1003KB   1 downloads

[RedAuthar]

Couple of counters to his Global Claims.  

 

-Robotnik claims to have roboticized every other living thing except Freedom Fighters in Sonic Past Cool. This is clearly wrong because we later see rats in Robotropolis and flying fish in the Great Forest, but that he would even think it suggests that he's established a presence in every part of the globe.

The other Freedom Fighter Groups counters this claim.  Ari's group, Dirk and Pollo, the Wolf Pack, Griff's people, they all are resistance groups Robotnik hasn't Robotisized.  Also the Cannibals from Fed Up with Antoine adds in groups that aren't attempting to free Mobius yet are still free/against Robotnik's tyranny.  

 

 

 

-“Satellite photos” detected Void activity. That he is able to maintain spacecraft monitoring random places in The Great Unknown suggests that he has a lot of them and that there are no rival groups with weapons that can shoot his satellites down.

 

Harmonic Sonic acts as if the Spy Orb is Ro-Butt-nik's first attempt at a spy satellite.  And it was destroyed rather quickly all things considered.  If he has any other satellites they're either really small or not all that threatening.  Also since they never caught Uncle Chuck's network, or the Freedom Fighters travelling back and forth they don't do him much. 

 

Not saying Robotnik isn't a Global Power, if not the most Powerful one, but he likely doesn't actually control that much of the planet.  Also we really don't know how much of the planet is underwater.  Assuming it is Earth Like, he wouldn't control a full third of the planet.  

[furrykef]

There's also the problem that Robotnik can't effectively manage areas he's too far away from. He would need governors to manage distant regions, and there's no sign of any in the series.

[Frieza2000]

The other Freedom Fighter Groups counters this claim. Ari's group, Dirk and Pollo, the Wolf Pack, Griff's people, they all are resistance groups Robotnik hasn't Robotisized.

But they do call themselves Freedom Fighters so...that doesn't make his statement inaccurate. You've right about the cannibals, but one group of 5 hiding in the woods is hardly a consideration when you're boasting about your ubiquitous control. A better example is Griff's hidden city of 30 people. But, in both cases, they're hidden. He believes he's roboticized everything, which suggests there are no major land masses he hasn't established control on (that he knows about).
 

Harmonic Sonic acts as if the Spy Orb is Ro-Butt-nik's first attempt at a spy satellite. And it was destroyed rather quickly all things considered. If he has any other satellites they're either really small or not all that threatening.

There's actually a big difference between geosynchronous satellites and low orbit spy rigs. Something like the International Space Station flies much closer to the Earth than a satellite. Something made to detect stuff like "electromagnetic radiation" would be even closer. Close enough for a horseshoe magnet to bring it down. Man I hate that episode.
 

Also since they never caught Uncle Chuck's network, or the Freedom Fighters travelling back and forth they don't do him much.

Yes, if nothing else we must admit that his security is pretty laughable in every sense, even for the 90s. Even in his home base, his enemies can sneak around in the streets and in major buildings like power plants that power the whole city (twice in one week!) and not get caught by guards or surveillance devices. Even the NSA runs circles around him these days. But that's just the usual Storm Trooper style incompetence necessary to facilitate the story, not an indication of scope.
 

Uncle Chuck's network

Hm? He was a lone operative. Unless you mean all the coordination involving the blind drop, or his network of listening bugs.


Given some of the plot holes we ended up with and how loose they played with the continuity it's definitely possible to interpret this either way. As far as what Ben intended, he did answer this question. Sort of:
 

[Did Robotnik roboticize almost the entire population of Mobius, or were the regions aside from Robotropolis kept under martial law?] When Len decided to bring Pat and me in on the second season exclusively... we had to sit down and decide the final details of the universe. It had just been an unconnected series of episodes up until then. So, we watched all 13 from the first season, then brainstormed. And I don't know if we specifically addressed that issue, but it would have been R's intention to spread his tentacles far and wide. But the freedom fighters had kept him confined to a large degree - and least so we decided. I think. The direct answer to the R question - is that it wasn't important in the greater scheme of the original 11-episode arc of the second season. Now that you mentioned it, we had freedom fighter groups around the planet - so they must have been fighting him off.

There's also the problem that Robotnik can't effectively manage areas he's too far away from. He would need governors to manage distant regions, and there's no sign of any in the series.

In The Void we find out that he had "commanders," who apparently did manage some stuff. I'd assume they were robots, but it's possible they were traitorous Mobians.

[RedAuthar]

[Did Robotnik roboticize almost the entire population of Mobius, or were the regions aside from Robotropolis kept under martial law?] When Len decided to bring Pat and me in on the second season exclusively... we had to sit down and decide the final details of the universe. It had just been an unconnected series of episodes up until then. So, we watched all 13 from the first season, then brainstormed. And I don't know if we specifically addressed that issue, but it would have been R's intention to spread his tentacles far and wide. But the freedom fighters had kept him confined to a large degree - and least so we decided. I think. The direct answer to the R question - is that it wasn't important in the greater scheme of the original 11-episode arc of the second season. Now that you mentioned it, we had freedom fighter groups around the planet - so they must have been fighting him off.

 

....so in otherwords it wasn't planned out either way so it is your own personal interpretation.....

 

It's like why Super Villains all seem to attack the New York Area, sure there is 49 other states to attack but for the sake of story we'll focus generally on that area.  

[HeavensChampion]

 

The other Freedom Fighter Groups counters this claim. Ari's group, Dirk and Pollo, the Wolf Pack, Griff's people, they all are resistance groups Robotnik hasn't Robotisized.

But they do call themselves Freedom Fighters so...that doesn't make his statement inaccurate. You've right about the cannibals, but one group of 5 hiding in the woods is hardly a consideration when you're boasting about your ubiquitous control. A better example is Griff's hidden city of 30 people. But, in both cases, they're hidden. He believes he's roboticized everything, which suggests there are no major land masses he hasn't established control on (that he knows about).
 

Harmonic Sonic acts as if the Spy Orb is Ro-Butt-nik's first attempt at a spy satellite. And it was destroyed rather quickly all things considered. If he has any other satellites they're either really small or not all that threatening.

There's actually a big difference between geosynchronous satellites and low orbit spy rigs. Something like the International Space Station flies much closer to the Earth than a satellite. Something made to detect stuff like "electromagnetic radiation" would be even closer. Close enough for a horseshoe magnet to bring it down. Man I hate that episode.
 

Also since they never caught Uncle Chuck's network, or the Freedom Fighters travelling back and forth they don't do him much.

Yes, if nothing else we must admit that his security is pretty laughable in every sense, even for the 90s. Even in his home base, his enemies can sneak around in the streets and in major buildings like power plants that power the whole city (twice in one week!) and not get caught by guards or surveillance devices. Even the NSA runs circles around him these days. But that's just the usual Storm Trooper style incompetence necessary to facilitate the story, not an indication of scope.
 

Uncle Chuck's network

Hm? He was a lone operative. Unless you mean all the coordination involving the blind drop, or his network of listening bugs.


Given some of the plot holes we ended up with and how loose they played with the continuity it's definitely possible to interpret this either way. As far as what Ben intended, he did answer this question. Sort of:
 

[Did Robotnik roboticize almost the entire population of Mobius, or were the regions aside from Robotropolis kept under martial law?] When Len decided to bring Pat and me in on the second season exclusively... we had to sit down and decide the final details of the universe. It had just been an unconnected series of episodes up until then. So, we watched all 13 from the first season, then brainstormed. And I don't know if we specifically addressed that issue, but it would have been R's intention to spread his tentacles far and wide. But the freedom fighters had kept him confined to a large degree - and least so we decided. I think. The direct answer to the R question - is that it wasn't important in the greater scheme of the original 11-episode arc of the second season. Now that you mentioned it, we had freedom fighter groups around the planet - so they must have been fighting him off.

There's also the problem that Robotnik can't effectively manage areas he's too far away from. He would need governors to manage distant regions, and there's no sign of any in the series.

In The Void we find out that he had "commanders," who apparently did manage some stuff. I'd assume they were robots, but it's possible they were traitorous Mobians.

 

I think the commanders could have also been humans, too.