55 replies to this topic

[Lynchenberg]

You prefer Sonic's homeworld to be nameless?

 

 

 

Um, no. Who said that?

[HeavensChampion]

 

You prefer Sonic's homeworld to be nameless?

 

 

 

Um, no. Who said that?

 

I'm still upset about these changes. You'd think I'd have put it behind me, by now.

[MoKat]

I'm still upset about these changes. You'd think I'd have put it behind me, by now.

 

It's okay to be upset about the changes; you liked things in the comic the way they were.  I get where you're coming from, but things cannot go back to the way they were in the comic because of Pender's lawsuit.  That's why some people are still hatin' on the guy. 

[Lynchenberg]

 

 

You prefer Sonic's homeworld to be nameless?

 

 

 

Um, no. Who said that?

 

I'm still upset about these changes. You'd think I'd have put it behind me, by now.

 

 

Oh. Well, no I don't, but it's not in the writing staff's control. These are Sega mandates. As I said in my post, is the reboot the ideal Sonic comic book I'd want to read? No. Sega's mandates are bad enough, and I'm also not a fan of many of the decisions Ian's made. I really don't like them trying to merge Snively and classic Robotnik (or SatAM Robotnik to people who didn't grow up on the comic) into one character. It does a disservice to both characters. Just have Eggman be that comic's Robotnik, and keep Snively as he was. (I also don't get why he can't still be Robotnik's nephew if Sonic can still be Uncle Chuck's nephew, but that's just nitpicking.) I thought having Muttski become yet another Tails recolour with dog ears was also a terrible decision, it's cringe-inducing for me. If you're going to completely spit on the character, why include him at all? It'd be more respectful to just not use him. And the fact they're all drawn the same way is another thing that bugs me. I don't mind the Freedom Fighter redesigns in theory (Sally wears pants, oh horror,) but I hate how they all have to look like Tails in a wig or with different outfits or colours. The reason all the characters in the games are based on the same two or three models is to save time and money on rigging/modelling. But the comics cast aren't in the games, so they don't have to play by those rules. Yes, they need to look like they're a part of the modern Sonic universe, but characters looking like they belong in the same world and all of them having the exact same model are not the same thing. Look at the Disney film Tarzan for instance. Professor Archimedes and Tarzan are drawn in the same style, they look like they belong in the same world. But they look like completely different characters with different body types, facial construction, builds, and attitudes. Sally as she is now is Tails in a wig with a vest. But with all that said, in terms of the storytelling, dialogue, etc... the comic is a lot better than I expected it to be. The stories work and the art is well done for what it is, despite my grievances. So in general, good show Ian. It's not the ideal Sonic comic I'd want, but you're never going to please everyone.

[LogiTeeka]

Oh. Well, no I don't, but it's not in the writing staff's control. These are Sega mandates. As I said in my post, is the reboot the ideal Sonic comic book I'd want to read? No. Sega's mandates are bad enough, and I'm also not a fan of many of the decisions Ian's made. I really don't like them trying to merge Snively and classic Robotnik (or SatAM Robotnik to people who didn't grow up on the comic) into one character. It does a disservice to both characters. Just have Eggman be that comic's Robotnik, and keep Snively as he was. (I also don't get why he can't still be Robotnik's nephew if Sonic can still be Uncle Chuck's nephew, but that's just nitpicking.) I thought having Muttski become yet another Tails recolour with dog ears was also a terrible decision, it's cringe-inducing for me. If you're going to completely spit on the character, why include him at all? It'd be more respectful to just not use him. And the fact they're all drawn the same way is another thing that bugs me. I don't mind the Freedom Fighter redesigns in theory (Sally wears pants, oh horror,) but I hate how they all have to look like Tails in a wig or with different outfits or colours. The reason all the characters in the games are based on the same two or three models is to save time and money on rigging/modelling. But the comics cast aren't in the games, so they don't have to play by those rules. Yes, they need to look like they're a part of the modern Sonic universe, but characters looking like they belong in the same world and all of them having the exact same model are not the same thing. Look at the Disney film Tarzan for instance. Professor Archimedes and Tarzan are drawn in the same style, they look like they belong in the same world. But they look like completely different characters with different body types, facial construction, builds, and attitudes. Sally as she is now is Tails in a wig with a vest. But with all that said, in terms of the storytelling, dialogue, etc... the comic is a lot better than I expected it to be. The stories work and the art is well done for what it is, despite my grievances. So in general, good show Ian. It's not the ideal Sonic comic I'd want, but you're never going to please everyone.

Honestly, I think Sally's older design looked much more like a Tails clone before the reboot. The furry cheeks didn't help either. At least now, I can tell them apart by their faces.

So it's okay for the game cast to share common traits, but not the comic cast? If they're to fit the style, they need to take some influence from their appearances. But none of them are outright clones either, they're still identifiable by their key characteristics; Sally still has her facial markings, vest, and red hair; Antoine still has his sword and pointed snout, Rotor is still large, but in a different way to help separate him from Big the Cat; and Bunnie still has her erected ears, robotic parts, and jumpsuit.

Even the game characters have slight differences in body shape. Amy's body is more pateate compared to Rouge's larger, more curvaceous shape; and Blaze's body is less rounded and more flat-chested. Likewise, Sonic and Espio's bodies are more lean and streamlined compared to the barrel-chested Knuckles (to a degree) and Vector. If anything, it's the children (Tails, Cream, Marine, Charmy) who tend to have identical-looking shapes; which makes sense since they haven't matured yet.

Since SatAM Robotnik is now off-limits, it makes sense for some of his traits and elements to be reused for a character closely associated with him, since he's still allowed to appear. And from what I can tell so far, Snively's current depiction could be an interesting step in his development as a character; starting out as Eggman's lackey and eventually becoming his own villainous self.

Also, Sonic is officially no longer Uncle Chuck's nephew in the new universe. Chuck is described as being an uncle-figure to the Freedom Fighters, which is why they call him that. Same thing goes for Sonic. One could imagine that they're still related, but it can't be stated outright.

And honestly, I kinda like the new Muttski. Sure, it's an odd change, but honestly, how does it butcher the character when he hardly had one in the first place? At least this version has the potential to be an interesting character. Heck, from what we know from his backstory so far, he was close friends with Tails back when Dr. Robotnik/Eggman invaded Mobitropolis.

[Lynchenberg]

Largely, it comes down to personal taste. So I'm not going to argue most of those points. Also, note that I've been complimentary towards Flynn on a technical level, even though it's not what I'd want to see in the comics. However, when it comes to the new designs, you're flat-out wrong. If you think the new Sally (and Muttski and basically everyone now) aren't all based on the same model Tails is, you are incorrect. Yes, Sally's looked like a Tails clone (in the comics) for a while now, starting with Tracy Yardley's work (which is well-drawn on a technical level, mind you.) But this just made it all the more blatant. I'm not talking about surface details like cheek fuzz, but the facial construction and proportions. She's just Tails or Marine with a few surface changes. Whether that's good or bad is up to personal taste. Some people really love the Sega style where everyone looks more or less the same, but I don't. You can't argue with taste.

[LogiTeeka]

Largely, it comes down to personal taste. So I'm not going to argue most of those points. Also, note that I've been complimentary towards Flynn on a technical level, even though it's not what I'd want to see in the comics. However, when it comes to the new designs, you're flat-out wrong. If you think the new Sally (and Muttski and basically everyone now) aren't all based on the same model Tails is, you are incorrect. Yes, Sally's looked like a Tails clone (in the comics) for a while now, starting with Tracy Yardley's work (which is well-drawn on a technical level, mind you.) But this just made it all the more blatant. I'm not talking about surface details like cheek fuzz, but the facial construction and proportions. She's just Tails or Marine with a few surface changes. Whether that's good or bad is up to personal taste. Some people really love the Sega style where everyone looks more or less the same, but I don't. You can't argue with taste.

I'm not denying the influence, it's clearly there. But at the same time, they're not outright clones either.

Take my fan-character, Coal the Wolf, for example.



His design is heavily inspired by Tails (he even started out as a recolor originally), but he has lots of other key features to help separate him apart. The same thing applies to the Freedom Fighters' new designs. It's not a bad thing to copy from others, you just need to make it unique and identifiable.

[Lynchenberg]

I didn't say it was a bad thing, but I personally like it better when the characters all look a bit different on a basic construction level. Like how Sally looked different to Tails or Sonic in SatAM, or the character designs in Disney films, like the example I gave of the Professor and Tarzan. For me, surface changes like "well she has hair and I got rid of the cheek fuzz," aren't enough. It's all taste. Nice drawing by the way.

[LogiTeeka]

I didn't say it was a bad thing, but I personally like it better when the characters all look a bit different on a basic construction level. Like how Sally looked different to Tails or Sonic in SatAM, or the character designs in Disney films like Tarzan. For me, surface changes like "well she has hair and I got rid of the cheek fuzz," aren't enough. It's all taste. Nice drawing by the way.

Yes, but at the same time, you don't want the styles to clash either. Otherwise, it would look quite distracting.

In Disney's "Tarzan", all the characters were given directions and had their designs finalized by an artist or group of artists to make them all fit the 3D, realistic style of the film.

The same just can't be said for SatAM. Sonic's cartoony appearance clashes heavily against the semi-realistic-looking Mobians of the show. Where you can see the joints in Sally's arm or her fur move in a breeze, Sonic's arms were like noodles and you couldn't tell if he had actual fur or not. Heck, you couldn't even tell if the white of his eyes was actually part of his eyes either. Were most of the Freedom Fighters resembled their real-world counterparts to a degree, Sonic looked much more alien in appearance. It's like pairing Bambi with Bugs Bunny; it just doesn't fit. I mean, Robotnik was heavily redesigned to fit the show's tone, so why wasn't Sonic?

If I had to redesign Sonic to fit the show's motif, he probably would've looked something similar to this:

[Lynchenberg]

I'd actually agree with you that was a fault with SatAM, although I don't agree it was a problem with the core Freedom Fighters. Sally, Sonic, Tails, Bunnie, and Rotor were all different on a fundamental level, but still looked like they belonged in the same world. When it comes to Ari, Lupe, and the others, it clashed a lot more. I think you can give the characters different basic characteristics and still have it fit. Sally had joints in her arms yes, but she wasn't the supermodel Steven Butler or J Axer drew. Sonic's rubber hose arms worked, because you can have some characters be cartoonier than others as long as you don't overdo the anatomy on any of them.

 

Let's take your Bambi example. Yes, Bugs Bunny would clash beside Bambi, but it's not because of his level of caricature. It's because he wasn't designed to be part of that universe. Thumper doesn't clash with Bambi, but it's not because he's as anatomical as Bambi. Let's take a minute and break down the designs. If you look at the film, Bambi's the only one who really has joints or anatomy that somewhat resembles his real animal counterpart. Thumper's design more closely resembles a human infant with very little anatomy. Only the surface details like the muzzle, ears, and tail reveal his species. The difference is they were still carefully designed to appear as part of the same universe, despite the completely different caricature approaches and construction.

 

Going back to Sonic, I think those designs you posted clash a lot more with the SatAM models than Sonic's redesign in the show did. And there was a redesign. Sonic's SatAM model is not quite the same model as in the Sega games or Adventures. It's designed with the illusion that it looks the same, so kids would recognize it as Sonic. But when you break it down, it was adapted to fit within the show. Those drawings (which are great, nicely drawn pictures) would look really out of place next to Princess Sally as she was in the show. Sonic doesn't.

[LogiTeeka]

Eh. I guess I just don't see it that way.

With Bambi, he was designed to be realistic because actual fawns are quite boney in appearance. But Thumper was given a more plump appearance because actual rabbits are quite chubby; especially young ones when their fur is fluffier. And if you look closely, he too has limbs and such. It's just more subtle since the amount of fur makes it harder to notice. This, coupled with animator Marc Davis having designed them both pretty much confirms that Thumper is still very much up to code in the film's style.

With Sonic, it just bugs me when I see him paired with something that clashes against his design. His interactions with Elise 06 being one of the worst examples. Sonic is very cartoonish in design, from his large head, hands, & feet; noodle-like limbs, small body, unusual-styled eyes and bright blue color. So naturally, you'd expect everyone else to have a similar thing going. Sally and the rest have incredibly large heads, but that's pretty much the extant of it. If it weren't for that, they'd be pretty realistic in appearance. The only time the rest of the Freedom Fighters came close to matching Sonic's style was during the pilot episode, but all that was changed when they tried taking the show in a darker, more serious direction. It seems uneven when you're the only unusual, brightly colored character in the whole cast.

I dunno. Maybe it's just me.

[Lynchenberg]

Yeah, maybe. Because I can't see it. If you mean "realistic" in terms of actual animals, I don't think the SatAM cast resembles the animals they're based on much at all. Sonic's a farther cry from a hedgehog than Rotor is from a walrus or Sally is from a squirrel, but they still look completely different. Do you mean realistic in terms of humanoid figures? Well, if you were talking about how Steve Butler or Spaz drew Sally in comparison to Sonic, I'd agree. They gave them clear musculature, even going so far as to add bone and sinew. But in SatAM? Their bodies are VERY steam-lined, they've got joints in their arms and legs and that's about it. There's no tendons or even a realistic figure aside from a bit of a bust, and perhaps a hair more of an elbow than Sonic. Sally's body is essentially a jellybean. It's really no more major a difference than how Bambi looked compared to Thumper, in fact, it's probably less of one. Also, while Thumper does have joints, he really doesn't look much like an actual rabbit. I'd recommend looking at pictures or videos of human babies and comparing it to Thumper, then doing the same but with rabbits. Thumper owes a lot more to them than to real rabbits. In fact, so does Bambi himself, although he is slightly more true to real deer. But even that's more in his movements than his character design. But regardless of whether or not you think Bambi and Thumper are "realistic," the fact is they're two very different designs that don't clash. I don't see why the same can't be done with Sonic characters. As I wrote earlier, in the games it's obviously to save time on rigging and modeling. But in the comics there's really no reason for it. In theory, I'm fine with updating the characters. I have no problem with Sally wearing shorts or having a closed shirt. I'd be fine with her having noodle arms or whatever too. I just want her (and the entire cast) to have unique faces, proportions, builds, and other quirks that mark them as individuals. 

[MoKat]

 I really don't like them trying to merge Snively and classic Robotnik (or SatAM Robotnik to people who didn't grow up on the comic) into one character. It does a disservice to both characters.

 

 

I totally agree with this^

 

Meh, but that was probably a result of Sega mandates as well; they seem to have some sort of cow over their main characters having family members around.

Ian probably gets away with "Uncle" Chuck because other characters use "Uncle" as a term of endearment (*thinks somebody mentioned that before somewhere*).

[sonicroc]

I'm finally [almost] completely caught up in the comics! Yay me!!!

 

(Btw, now that I've finished Waves of Change, I gotta give this one to RedAuthar: The ending was pretty stupid. "CHAOS?!" Yeah...)

 

If I had a button in front of me that would go back in time and make it so the reboot never happened, I wouldn't. I think I'm actually enjoying the comics now better than ever before. The werehog story, and the Sonic the Fighters arc (I've only read part 1) are just so much fun! Everything just feels so fresh to me.

 

And Ian Flynn no longer has to walk carefully to avoid tripping over two decades of continuity. Now he can do whatever the heck he wants. This is truly Ian Flynn Unleashed!

 

I went back and read a few old issues of Sonic, and lo and behold... they're still there. It's as fun to read them as ever. It doesn't feel like they're leading up to the newest comics, but it never really did. The old comics just feel so completely different than they do now under Ian Flynn.

 

If you ask me, the reboot is not by any means the biggest transition the comic has undergone. If you're not convinced, pull out random comics throughout the series' length compare them. The idea that the comic was always on one giant timeline was always entirely superficial.

 

Some people have claimed that the reboot "ruined their childhood." But no, your childhood is safe. Now we are getting something new. And awesome.

 

So yeah, just my two cents. (Or was that four cents?)

[Lynchenberg]

I don't think the point of this thread is that folks "hate" the reboot or think it "ruined their childhoods," they'd just like to see their favorite Penders characters appear again. I actually think the reboot's made the comic better than it's been in years. As previously stated, I do have my grievances with some creative decisions, but that's par for the course of any work of art. Overall, the drawing looks nice again, the core Freedom Fighters are acting in character again, and the stories are fun, well-written and sometimes even have a touch of depth. All-in-all, it's a good kids book and I'm happy that the SatAM Freedom Fighters are living on in it, even if it's not exactly what I would do with them or would like seen done with them. 

[sonicroc]

Well said. *bro fist*  Nice to have on here, btw! (even though your avatar is terrifying.)

 

Anyway, what's all this talk about Snively and SatAM Robotnik being combined into one character? As far as I can tell, he's 100% Snively, just with a name change (and a beard). If I changed my middle name to Lincoln, I wouldn't consider myself to be half me and half Abraham Lincoln.  :P

 

Or are you guys thinking of the fact that he is [for now] trusted by the "good guys'" military? I don't know, I think that's more just them trying to find a new role for Snively in this new universe, since his role as Robotnik's henchman has been usurped by Orbot and Cubot. Personality-wise, he's still acting exactly like the Snively we all love to distrust.

 

But I have to agree, when I first read the words "Dr. Julian Snively," I was like, "NOOOOO!!!! DON'T DO THAT!!!" But then I realized that he used to be called Snively Robotnik, so there's always been some name confusion between the two of them. As long as he is still "Snively," all is well. I was just worried they weren't gonna bring him back at all, lol...

 

Also, what are you guys talking about when you say Uncle Chuck isn't Sonic's uncle anymore? This one I have literally no idea where it's coming from...

[Lynchenberg]

Well said. *bro fist*  Nice to have on here, btw! (even though your avatar is terrifying.)

 

Good to see you too! It's Doctor Blasphemy from Brat Pack, I love Rick Veitch's artwork.

 

 

[Nightmus]

Sorry for a probably out of place question, but could you please fill me in on which characters belong to Ken Penders? From this thread I gathered that from original Satam it is only Robotnik, is that so?

 

Also is Sally's redesign linked to the Ken Penders vs Archie lawsuit? Or was it just restyling for the sake of it?

[RedAuthar]

 

 

Also is Sally's redesign linked to the Ken Penders vs Archie lawsuit? Or was it just restyling for the sake of it?

No.  Sally's redesign would have happened anyways.  They revealed it was going to be part of her Deroboticization.  

[Nightmus]

I see. I'm not used to that look at all, prefer the old one. I can't help it but her new look constantly reminds me of Lola from recent Looney Tunes show restart. She looks too light-hearted, unfocused and not self-confident. The problem is that the Looney Tunes show is a comedy sketch in modern world setting, Lola had little to no personality before the redesign and she's portrayed as a crazy ditz. None of that applies neither to Sonic show, nor to Sally as I've seen in Satam.

 

Is she also doomed to have a secondary role in comics from now on? Or was the plan for Sonic to be left single and for fans to dream of whatever shipping they like themselves? I sure hope for the whole thing to end someday on a Sonally ending, but that's just me.