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@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 11:25 AM)

Also I still have to figure out how to set up our e-mail accounts on the new host.

@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 08:19 AM)

As soon as I figure out how to restore it. Sorry, I know I said it'd be done by now, but I didn't expect to have to put up with this DNS crap and other issues that popped up.

@  Uncle Ben : (24 July 2015 - 07:56 AM)

So when's the black theme coming back??

@  Uncle Ben : (24 July 2015 - 07:56 AM)

"Should"

@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 07:27 AM)

That DNS took longer to propagate properly than I thought it would. *Now* we should be back for good, though.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 08:48 PM)

Or it might be because Bluehost *finally* got around to that server wipe (one week after we'd asked for it) and that wiped out our DNS settings. I'm not sure which and I don't really care. In any case, we've severed our last ties with Bluehost, so this will not happen again.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 08:08 PM)

Looks like Bluehost yanked our DNS since our hosting account expired. That's why the site went down a while ago. But as you can see, it's fixed now.

@  Misk : (23 July 2015 - 04:55 PM)

No, they do not.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 04:27 AM)

The goggles do nothing?

@  Misk : (22 July 2015 - 05:50 PM)

My eyes.

@  furrykef : (22 July 2015 - 12:24 PM)

Looks like forum uploads might have been broken since last night. That should be fixed now too.

@  furrykef : (22 July 2015 - 01:33 AM)

Heh, whoops! Server went down for a few mins when I borked the config. Looks like it's back up now.

@  Uncle Ben : (21 July 2015 - 09:09 PM)

It looked like a napkin

@  ILOVEVHS : (21 July 2015 - 09:04 PM)

Fan-fuckin-tastic.

@  furrykef : (21 July 2015 - 08:25 PM)

As for the beaver picture while the forum was down, I think Tim drew it. On a napkin.

@  furrykef : (21 July 2015 - 08:24 PM)

No kiddin' about that "Finally!", Shadow. I am *so mad* at Bluehost for never responding to our support ticket. I submitted it early Friday morning and they *still* haven't answered it!

@  Uncle Ben : (21 July 2015 - 06:37 PM)

Maybe he did that himself

@  Shadow : (21 July 2015 - 05:25 PM)

Say, who made the cute picture of Beaver Chief?

@  Shadow : (21 July 2015 - 05:24 PM)

Finally!

@  RedMenace : (21 July 2015 - 05:02 PM)

Woooo! The site's back up! Three cheers for Kef!


What If Mina Mongoose Was In SatAM?


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213 replies to this topic

#21 fishtheimpaler

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE ("Miko":163et7q6)
But anyway, Being Mina's a supporting character who could really be a source of backbone for Tails, could add humor with Amy, could learn backbone from characters like Sally and Bunnie while contributing some question to Sally's logical thinking and help Sally to develop more too. As for Bunnie, Mina could easily help to try helping Bunnie cope with the issue concerning her beauty and problems in social life concerning her robotic limbs. The others really haven't brought to the surface this issue that open for a lengthier backstory on Bunnie as well and I think Mina's positions on morality and learned/applied wisdom to adventures could help her sort things out. The aspect of babysitting Tails and younger characters like Amy could also put into some occassional misadventures, but it doesn't have to be the central focus of what's going on. Mina also likes to tell stories, so the moral of each of the stories could play a role within helping Mina learn to make a decision on occassion as well. There's a lot of potential on Mina's part. I think the dynamics surrounding the plot all have potential with someone like Mina around. I really don't care about the babysitting or singing becoming a focal point. Many of pastimes othercharacters may do just aren't emphasized, and I'd really just focus on it when it becomes apparently useful to the story. Is questionining boring? I don't think so. Considering that if she's applied on ocassion it could provide for an interesting story. We certainly don't mind Sally questioning Sonic's actions through the use of logic.

We're fighting a war, here. If a character does not contribute something important to the dynamic of that war as a character in some way, they will find themselves being pushed to the wayside. As, perhaps unfortunately, basically happened to both Rotor and Tails in the original series. Rotor's defining characteristic is that he's a nice guy who occasionally supplies technical devices; he almost disappeared after "Subsonic." Tails is a cute little moppet who . . . is not allowed to fight. And that's basically what happens on that front, with some rare exceptions.

Everything you just laid out about Mina is pure window dressing from a basic plotting standpoint. The story is not *about* characters hanging out with one another and reading each other stories. It is about characters fighting a war. When we get to see Tails getting read a bedtime story, or Sally and Sonic having a lover's spat, it's because it's related to a war story--because Sally is actually a robot duplicate, or because Sally's potential new boytoy may be after Knothole's precious resources. If all you have for Mina is that she's a nice girl who wants to hang out with all these characters, she's going to wind up hanging out with Rotor, offscreen, while Tails finally gets something to do and leaves them both in the dust.

Keep in mind, everyone, introducing Mina to Knothole is not the only option. A third season structure in which the FF's visit other locations is available, Mina could wind up a denizen of some such place. At the moment I think it's probably more productive to talk up a bunch of different options rather than write stuff off the table.

#22 Ratty Randnums

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:11 PM

QUOTE ("Talonfire":hyuqozp6)
SatAM is SatAM, it's not SegaSonic, it's not Archie.

And this is not SatAM in that sense.
QUOTE ("Talonfire":hyuqozp6)

QUOTE ("Talonfire":hyuqozp6)
Personally, I'd prefer it if they kept the original cast and perhaps introduced some new characters who we haven't seen before. Yes, all Sonic universes have characters that could be introduced, but that's just the thing... we've seen them all before. ...why not include Scratch and Grounder while you're at it, oh and Sonia and Manic! Why not just bring ALL Sonic characters in? It'll be fun!

Because unlike Archie characters they don't greatly increase the likelihood of the new show being picked up.

QUOTE ("Talonfire":hyuqozp6)
My point is that SatAM isn't, and shouldn't become the Archie comics because there's enough confusion about that as it is.

And this will be neither, it is something new, and the inclusion of Mina and a few other Archie characters may help make it a reality, whether you personally like it or not.
Anyone Matt pitches this to is going to want to appeal to more than just a small fanbase of SatAM, that means game characters and yes, using the comics impressive history/success to show that it/these characters can actually work and have a large (not to mention lasting) appeal. Face it, the Sonic comic has more fans than SatAM and was at it's artistic height comparable to it. Appealing to comic fans specifically by inclusion of Mina and other Archie exclusives makes this new project far more likely to get picked up.

Fish, this wouldn't be season three, no company in their right mind would start off at that point just to please a tiny fanbase. And since this is going to be different and this is an entirely different era in television, theirs no reason to think it won't play differently, that's like expecting a modern remake of a film to be a shot for shot duplicate of the original. So there's no reason to think Mina might not work well in the series and as I've said many times, she comes with a built in fanbase and is likely to help bring many archie fans to the table- er, couch.
"I really think of life as a great expression of joy. And if you take yourself seriously you're going to be defeated I'm afraid.
...Maybe that is the whole recipe of life, is to be in on the joke. Because life is a joke and if you're not in on it you're out.
But if you're in on it, you can make it." - Vincent Price

"What have you got to lose? You know you come from nothing you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"
- Eric Idle

#23 Guest_Miko_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:13 PM

Just because Bunnie and Sally provide Tails with stories, doesn't automatically mean that Mina couldn't. While it does serve as bonding time for him and the girls, I'm sure both of them could use someone to step in every now and then when they have to prepare or rest up for a mission late at night. Plus, while the Freedom Fighters are undergoing missions, Mina could easily look after Tails OUTSIDE from bedtime while they're gone if she isn't occasionally chosen to go herself. This would easily give her an understanding of aspects of Tails' personality that might often go overlooked by some of the other characters, who're usually too busy to deal with him--especially during a time where he's growing up. If Tails is eventually developed to become gradually more rebellious against the other characters like he was originally intended, Mina's understanding of him would might be crucial in helping the others deal with him, especially Sonic if or when the conflict arises.

Well it does make sense that someone would need to look after Tails if all the Freedom Fighters were away at night, but such details were ignored back in the original SatAM in favor of showing our heros on a mission.


Of course Tails being told a story a day before a mission or right before one, and using the stories to perhaps apply them to a plot and teach a lesson to him could aid in his development and would be crucial in expanding his character. AND in SatAM the focus wasn't really on Tails. But times are changing. So such details surrounding Tails could be expanded on ocassion if he gets any attention.


To be honest Tails will have to show that he doesn't want to be treated like a little kid before, thus the full emotional impact of Tails's resistance can only be achieved by him being disobedient towards Aunt Sally herself. Mina on the other hand is just some standard babysitter who many of us have never seen interact with Tails before. And since this role amounts to nothing more than a glorified babysitter, why not just use Rosie the Nanny from "Blast to the Past"? Sure she never appeared in the show after that, but at least we'll get a SatAM-continuity bonus by seeing her once more before she disappears into the background after fulfilling her role in Tails's character arc.



1. Because Mina's role doesn't have to be anything other then a babysitter.

2. Because Mina's far more popular today than Rosie ever was.

3. Introducing Mina could provide an interesting story.

Maybe Mina wouldn't read to Tails forever, but she could for awhile, and storytime might just be an opening wedge for her to interact and become closer to more characters. Even if she stopped reading to him, and wasn't his babysitter anymore, she'd still be his friend anyway. This is just a means for them to develop as more as friends.

The thing is that Tails shouldn't be having to go through storytime anymore, he needs to grow out of it. For the sake of keeping the cast of Freedom Fighters at a manageable level, either Sally or Bunnie can be the ones to learn about Tails growing up the hard way.


And they would. But Tails can still develop with Mina's help. Adding a mongoose on occassion is NOT going kill SatAM.


Also, Tails' could use her as someone to convince Sonic and Sally to allow him on dangerous missions if they both in one story agree not to let him go. Mina babysitting Tails could also give leway for him to interact and take part in activities with other characters like Amy, who may drag both Mina AND Tails into her misadventures for Sonic's affections.

I'm not sure how the babysitter is supposed to be the one who tries to convince the guardians to let their kid go with them.


1. Maybe if the babysitter actually went on a few missions here and there. Not only that but and Mina could uinintentionally wind up in misadventures, that expand on the morals presented in their storybooks. Teaching valuable lessons to Tails while giving him the expirience to make Mina see him as fit to be a Freedom Fighter.

2. I think that if Mina were a mole, she'd have to be in on the Freedom Fighting already. So she'd probably be an occassional member of the team regardless.


If you think this would be a good chance for Tails to interact with Amy, then why not just make things simple and make Amy the babysitter who abandons her responsibilities in favor of her schemes for Sonic's affections?


Amy is only 2 years older then Tails. She's his peer. If anything, Mina would be watching over both of them.


I bet that Tails and Amy could become very great pals under this situation; both see Sonic as their hero (they can even bicker over who is Sonic's greatest fan) and both would have a desire to show their worth as Freedom Fighters. Eventually they will both end up proving themselves in combat (after some mishaps obviously) and become full-fledged Freedom Fighters. With such a dymanic, we wouldn't need a glorified middlewoman like Mina involved.


And Mina, their caretaker can't be in on it in similar fashions as mentioned above? Logically speaking ,the first person to know they're gone is likely to be their caretaker, and they'd be in on the mission too anyways. She can also serve to teach easily impressionable children lessons while trying to take care of them on their misadventures? Similar to Julayla and Sally? Again as Shorty mentioned, Mina can also provide someone in AMY'S court. Tails thinks romance is gross, and everyone else would put Sally first, or would simply fail to take her seriously. That doesn't even deal with the ways Mina can support the other characters. Amy is far too invested in things like clothes and shopping to truly understand the value of things deep down. A lesson Mina should at least offer to help Bunnie come to grips with it. Amy is very Sonic centered, and wouldn't really care about the other characters that much. Any characters who do wind up in Amy circle get suckered into her schemes. She doesn't really have many dynamics to offer compared to Mina. Speaking of Amy she'd need a new outfit. There's no way she'd get around with that "trendy" outfit in SatAM.



SatAM is SatAM, it's not SegaSonic, it's not Archie.


Again, so what? Adding Mina does not necessarily mean the show is transforming SatAM to Archie. It also pretty obvious that Mina would have to be modified somewhat to fit SatAM, and would play a different role considering the difference in status quo.

As for Amy fans being upset with Sally, well I don't know what to tell you except too bad.


Which is what this is all about, another Sonsal shipper...If you want to say your peice about Mina please at least discuss this in terms of storytelling.



SatAM is its own thing and should be treated as such. Yes it has Sonic, Tails and Robotnik but that doesn't mean it has to include Amy because the modern Sonic fans don't like Sally. Sally will upstage Amy even if she is included because let's face it, Sonic is interested in Sally while in no continuity does Sonic consider Amy little more than an annoyance. Let's not forget that as she is, she'd be a useless Freedom Fighter. What are you going to do? Turn her into a warrior? Well that would annoy the SegaSonic fans because she's not a warrior in the games. She has a ridiculously large hammer yes, but she rarely uses it effectively and it wouldn't fit in with the SatAM setting. Replace it with a sword or something? Good luck in using that effectively against SWAT Bots.

If you want to keep the SatAM feel you're not going to please the SegaSonic fans no matter what you do, so the "Sally upstaging Amy" argument is moot. As for Archie comic characters like Mina, as I said before... no point.



Granted you can't please them all, but you can please a lot more of them by at least adding Amy and Knuckles and increasing Tails' role to the series so it's not moot. And you're right you do have... no point. I don't want Mina simply because I don't like the fact she came from the comic. Sorry but that arguement's pretty weak and lies only on your own personal biases to the comic. Mina could be changed to fit in SatAM, and her dynamics with the characters don't demand SatAM to change.

#24 Guest_Talonfire_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:29 PM

I'm not a "SonSal" shipper, I don't really careabout such things. My point was that, that's the direction the original writers were heading in, so just spontaneously switching it to another character just to please Archie or SEGA fans would not be a good idea. It'd be unprofessional if nothing else.

And this revival isn't season 3? Funny, the impression I got from all of Matt's posts was that he wanted to pick up where season 2 left off. So yes, essentially it is a resurrection of SatAM.

#25 Guest_Miko_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:40 PM

QUOTE ("Talonfire":2vzfk53o)
I'm not a "SonSal" shipper, I don't really careabout such things. My point was that, that's the direction the original writers were heading in, so just spontaneously switching it to another character just to please Archie or SEGA fans would not be a good idea. It'd be unprofessional if nothing else.


What was the original direction the original writers were heading in? SonSal you mean? One of the problems with not reading everyone's opinions before responding is that you get an erroneous ideas. The basis of Mina isn't simply about making fans happy. We also think she could fit with the story. Also when dealing with a franchise, what you consider "unprofessional", is practically expected. With Superman cartoons there's Lois Lane. With X-men cartoons you'll always find characters like Wolverine or Cyclops. It's not unheard of. I'd also like to know what you mean by

#26 Guest_Talonfire_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:48 PM

I did read your opinions, but that doesn't mean I can't have my own and look at the directions the story could realistically take. I'm not flaming you here, just a friendly debate.

And what do I mean by what?

#27 Guest_Miko_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:54 PM

QUOTE ("Talonfire":2xfzfb16)
I did read your opinions, but that doesn't mean I can't have my own and look at the directions the story could realistically take. I'm not flaming you here, just a friendly debate.

And what do I mean by what?


Darn! Sorry I thought I deleted that. To answer your question read the first sentence. In any case, I'd felt you hadn't read because you only seemed to be understanding our beleifs towards Mina as "it's for the fans." If you want to talk about the other characters, there are seperate topics.

QUOTE ("fishtheimpaler":2xfzfb16)
QUOTE ("Miko":2xfzfb16)
But anyway, Being Mina's a supporting character who could really be a source of backbone for Tails, could add humor with Amy, could learn backbone from characters like Sally and Bunnie while contributing some question to Sally's logical thinking and help Sally to develop more too. As for Bunnie, Mina could easily help to try helping Bunnie cope with the issue concerning her beauty and problems in social life concerning her robotic limbs. The others really haven't brought to the surface this issue that open for a lengthier backstory on Bunnie as well and I think Mina's positions on morality and learned/applied wisdom to adventures could help her sort things out. The aspect of babysitting Tails and younger characters like Amy could also put into some occassional misadventures, but it doesn't have to be the central focus of what's going on. Mina also likes to tell stories, so the moral of each of the stories could play a role within helping Mina learn to make a decision on occassion as well. There's a lot of potential on Mina's part. I think the dynamics surrounding the plot all have potential with someone like Mina around. I really don't care about the babysitting or singing becoming a focal point. Many of pastimes othercharacters may do just aren't emphasized, and I'd really just focus on it when it becomes apparently useful to the story. Is questionining boring? I don't think so. Considering that if she's applied on ocassion it could provide for an interesting story. We certainly don't mind Sally questioning Sonic's actions through the use of logic.

We're fighting a war, here. If a character does not contribute something important to the dynamic of that war as a character in some way, they will find themselves being pushed to the wayside. As, perhaps unfortunately, basically happened to both Rotor and Tails in the original series. Rotor's defining characteristic is that he's a nice guy who occasionally supplies technical devices; he almost disappeared after "Subsonic." Tails is a cute little moppet who . . . is not allowed to fight. And that's basically what happens on that front, with some rare exceptions.



I don't agree there, Fish. One of the things about SatAM is that they put dynamics before plottyness and steaming manfiyght abilities. Antoine for instance had a dynamic that was intended to evoke comedy in the series, and he was never totally absent from the series. Rotor however never had a serious dynamic with ANY of the characters, especially Sonic or Sally so he was naturally gone. Tails while he worships Sonic, failed to establish a dynamic that was beyond the adoring kid. What does Tails' adoration for Sonic do for him as a character? The cartoon could never adequately answer this question and ignored him.


QUOTE
Everything you just laid out about Mina is pure window dressing from a basic plotting standpoint. The story is not *about* characters hanging out with one another and reading each other stories. It is about characters fighting a war.


When you get to making it about the fighting, and remove the heart element that involve these dynamics, we're running into Sonic X, DBZ territory, and that's not what SatAM's about.

QUOTE
When we get to see Tails getting read a bedtime story, or Sally and Sonic having a lover's spat, it's because it's related to a war story--because Sally is actually a robot duplicate, or because Sally's potential new boytoy may be after Knothole's precious resources.


And Tails getting a bedtime story to expand on a later decision that's relevant to the plot does make the act related it.


QUOTE
Keep in mind, everyone, introducing Mina to Knothole is not the only option. A third season structure in which the FF's visit other locations is available, Mina could wind up a denizen of some such place. At the moment I think it's probably more productive to talk up a bunch of different options rather than write stuff off the table.


I think given the loss of her mother by choosing such friends, she'd really have to be attatched to them in order for such a decision to be so hard in the first place. I couldn't see her logically just saying "see yuh!" Besides it wouldn't be any different from making her an occassional focus in Knothole.

#28 Guest_Talonfire_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:01 PM

QUOTE
When you get to making it about the fighting, and remove the heart element that involve these dynamics, we're running into Sonic X, DBZ territory, and that's not what SatAM's about.


This is true, rewatch a few episodes of SatAM. There's barely any action at all, and the action scenes that are there, are quite brief. SatAM was more about story than flashy fight scenes.

#29 Guest_BigBrother_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE ("Miko":2g7n3ufs)
1. Because Mina's role doesn't have to be anything other then a babysitter.

2. Because Mina's far more popular today than Rosie ever was.

3. Introducing Mina could provide an interesting story.


QUOTE
And they would. But Tails can still develop with Mina's help. Adding a mongoose on occassion is NOT going kill SatAM.

Any other female character can preform the same tasks that you describe, whether she may be Sally, Bunnie, or even Amy. I fail to see how Mina has unique qualities that make her better-suited to this job.

QUOTE
1. Maybe if the babysitter actually went on a few missions here and there. Not only that but and Mina could uinintentionally wind up in misadventures, that expand on the morals presented in their storybooks. Teaching valuable lessons to Tails while giving him the expirience to make Mina see him as fit to be a Freedom Fighter.

2. I think that if Mina were a mole, she'd have to be in on the Freedom Fighting already. So she'd probably be an occassional member of the team regardless.

I thought the point of having Mina as a babysitter was to have someone watch over Tails if Sally and Bunnie were both on a mission, but what happens when Tails' aunts and the babysitter are away? If Tails needed a babysitter, logically Sally would have recuited a regular Knothole citizen who did not go out on missions and so would always be available if her services were needed. Therefore, either Mina is out there preforming missions or is stuck on the home front with Tails. Babysitters can't have their cake and eat it too.

QUOTE
Amy is only 2 years older then Tails. She's his peer. If anything, Mina would be watching over both of them.

Does not compute. As a Simpsons' fan, I remember one episode when the older brother was being watched over by his sister who was two years younger than him. Sometimes the reality of age can be thrown out for the greater good of the plot. After all, these are the same Freedom Fighters who let Antoine "le Fuel" participate in missions time and time again. Based on that example, then it wouldn't be too suprising if they select babysitters who may not exactly be the best picks.

And you're forgetting the obvious: Tails will end up maturing in this show even if doesn't appear to be aging at all. If a 10-year old has the capacity to become an effective child soldier and pilot, then surely someone 2 years older than him will have at least some ability to watch over a child?

QUOTE
Amy is far too invested in things like clothes and shopping to truly understand the value of things deep down. A lesson Mina should at least offer to help Bunnie come to grips with it. Amy is very Sonic centered, and wouldn't really care about the other characters that much. Any characters who do wind up in Amy circle get suckered into her schemes. She doesn't really have many dynamics to offer compared to Mina. Speaking of Amy she'd need a new outfit. There's no way she'd get around with that "trendy" outfit in SatAM.

Last I checked, Sonic's so invested in living a carefree life that he can't be bothered to dedicate his life into putting Dr. Eggman out of commission once and for all. Otherwise he'd get bored whenever he has a sudden urge to save the world.

Oh wait, that's just Sonic as he exists in the universe of the current games. Just as the SatAM Sonic exibits different motivations, so would an SatAM Amy. It goes without saying that the Amy Rose who lives a comfortable life in Station Square would act vastly different from the Amy Rose who has to live under the threat of a totalitarian dictatorship every single day. With that in mind, Amy should be free to develop a personality that fits within the SatAM-universe and not bound to how the games portray her.

#30 fishtheimpaler

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:39 PM

QUOTE ("Talonfire":1w4d2yle)
QUOTE
When you get to making it about the fighting, and remove the heart element that involve these dynamics, we're running into Sonic X, DBZ territory, and that's not what SatAM's about.


This is true, rewatch a few episodes of SatAM. There's barely any action at all, and the action scenes that are there, are quite brief. SatAM was more about story than flashy fight scenes.

True, but most episodes center around a plot by Robotnik and the FF's efforts to stop it. I think you're downplaying how the comedy element of Antoine was in large part designed to function in a war context (incompetent coward-it's funny! :/), and how your sense that Rotor and Tails just "had no dynamic at all" is specifically a problem of them having nothing to bring them into plots oriented around stopping Robotnik.

"Heart" is present, of course, and makes the show, but the show at least historically, has not had many episodes that were not related to combat.

One could alter the tone of the show in a reset pitch, of course.

#31 Ratty Randnums

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:52 PM

QUOTE ("Talonfire":1riqqax4)
I'm not a "SonSal" shipper, I don't really careabout such things.

Uhuh
QUOTE ("Talonfire":1riqqax4)
My point was that, that's the direction the original writers were heading in, so just spontaneously switching it to another character just to please Archie or SEGA fans would not be a good idea. It'd be unprofessional if nothing else.

How so? Whatever happened to
QUOTE ("Talonfire":1riqqax4)
let the writers of a possible continuation of SatAM come up with their own ideas

Oh that's right, you support creative freedom so long as it conforms to your opinion, so "you don't like it = unprofessional/bad idea" of course, it's all so simple now!
QUOTE ("Tail on fire":1riqqax4)
and only include characters that they HAVE to use.

Because character driven stories, character development and greatly increasing the number of regular viewers are leik ttly a bummer amirite?

QUOTE ("Talonfire":1riqqax4)
And this revival isn't season 3? Funny, the impression I got from all of Matt's posts was that he wanted to pick up where season 2 left off. So yes, essentially it is a resurrection of SatAM.

QUOTE ("Ratty":1riqqax4)
no company in their right mind would start off at that point just to please a tiny fanbase.

"I really think of life as a great expression of joy. And if you take yourself seriously you're going to be defeated I'm afraid.
...Maybe that is the whole recipe of life, is to be in on the joke. Because life is a joke and if you're not in on it you're out.
But if you're in on it, you can make it." - Vincent Price

"What have you got to lose? You know you come from nothing you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"
- Eric Idle

#32 Guest_Talonfire_*

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 07:51 PM

QUOTE
Uhuh

Romance in fiction doesn't interest me, least of all between two animal characters.


QUOTE
Oh that's right, you support creative freedom so long as it conforms to your opinion, so "you don't like it = unprofessional/bad idea" of course, it's all so simple now!


Think what you want about me, I have little concern for the matter. I support creative freedom as long as it makes sense in the context of story telling. Don't believe me and operate under the impression that I think only my opinion matters? Oh well, not my loss, remind me not to debate with you again.

QUOTE
Because character driven stories, character development and greatly increasing the number of regular viewers are leik ttly a bummer amirite?


???

QUOTE
no company in their right mind would start off at that point just to please a tiny fanbase.


You're Matt? Since when?

#33 Guest_Miko_*

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 01:09 AM

1. Because Mina's role doesn't have to be anything other then a babysitter.

2. Because Mina's far more popular today than Rosie ever was.

3. Introducing Mina could provide an interesting story.


Ah, I see the lapse. I've got a lot of ideas floating in my head about this. So, I think Mina could be his babysitter in Knothole, with that as the only profession she really involves herself in. I mean yeah I can see occassional tasks like helping Rotor with his latest invention with Bunnie, but I could particularly see Mina's helping with Tails' development.



And they would. But Tails can still develop with Mina's help. Adding a mongoose on occassion is NOT going kill SatAM.


Any other female character can preform the same tasks that you describe, whether she may be Sally, Bunnie, or even Amy. I fail to see how Mina has unique qualities that make her better-suited to this job.


So I suppose we can replace say Sally, Sonic, etc with one another because occassionally their strengths overlap, showing how the other is so not needed because "they can do it". When it comes to the characters, YES on occassion they're going to be capable of doing something that someone very strong in that area does. Sally and Bunnie never really found it important to tell Tails stories about things with moral or wise lessons. Nor did they applicate this for Tails' development. Again, Mina's babysitting can serve a greater purpose to the story then the kind of babysitting Sally and Bunnie did, in the sense that as the voice of morality/wisdom Mina is using her time with Tails as a means of stimulating his development. Amy herself has a particular problem with having the maturity, self control, and dedication to persue doing something for someone other then Sonic.Amy's relationships even in the games are cold and distant to the other characters. She doesn't invest much time into forging real relationships with others because she's so fixated on Sonic. Also Bunnie and Sally can continue to babysit Tails, but it doesn't change that Mina's method of taking care of him could have a much better impact on his development. The important thing is that Mina's time with Tails serves a specific purpose and can impact the plot. Not that the act of babysitting can be done by someone else.


1. Maybe if the babysitter actually went on a few missions here and there. Not only that but and Mina could uinintentionally wind up in misadventures, that expand on the morals presented in their storybooks. Teaching valuable lessons to Tails while giving him the expirience to make Mina see him as fit to be a Freedom Fighter.

2. I think that if Mina were a mole, she'd have to be in on the Freedom Fighting already. So she'd probably be an occassional member of the team regardless.

I thought the point of having Mina as a babysitter was to have someone watch over Tails if Sally and Bunnie were both on a mission, but what happens when Tails' aunts and the babysitter are away? If Tails needed a babysitter, logically Sally would have recuited a regular Knothole citizen who did not go out on missions and so would always be available if her services were needed. Therefore, either Mina is out there preforming missions or is stuck on the home front with Tails. Babysitters can't have their cake and eat it too.


You're assuming that Mina's going to be called to a mission if there isn't someone like Rotor, or Sally or Bunnie to watch him. Even if Mina weren't there, there would have to be someone available to babysit Tails. Mina doesn't have to be Tails' only babysitter, either. Whether she is or not isn't important. Ocassionally Mina may be called to a mission and won't be able to babysit Tails but that doesn't mean this has to be a frequent problem. And when Tails does become a Freedom Fighter I can see it becoming even easier on the dynamic because of the fact that Tails could easily have a lot of his missions when Mina has missions. He's not going to miss out on being babysat.


Amy is only 2 years older then Tails. She's his peer. If anything, Mina would be watching over both of them.

Does not compute. As a Simpsons' fan, I remember one episode when the older brother was being watched over by his sister who was two years younger than him.



Lisa is actually a lot more mature than many people twice her age, let alone Bart. Amy's maturity on the other hand is about on par with Tails.


After all, these are the same Freedom Fighters who let Antoine "le Fuel" participate in missions time and time again. Based on that example, then it wouldn't be too suprising if they select babysitters who may not exactly be the best picks.


It doesn't change that Mina's dynamic couldn't offer something to Tails' character development, which is what really matters. On the same token, Sally especially places great importance on age, demonstration of maturity, and it's provision of responsibilities. That's one of the issues Tails hadn't been Freedom Fighting in the first place. I doubt Amy, a character whose as one track minded or immature, would be considered old enough to have the responsibility to babysit Tails.


And you're forgetting the obvious: Tails will end up maturing in this show even if doesn't appear to be aging at all. If a 10-year old has the capacity to become an effective child soldier and pilot, then surely someone 2 years older than him will have at least some ability to watch over a child?


Tails has the the wits and physical capacity to be a pilot and soilder. It doesn't mean he's emotionally prepared, or non-impressionable. Developing on these aspects of Tails can warrant character development and help him to understand what it means to be like his hero Sonic. Amy hasn't demonstrated the maturity to watch Tails, and if she were, her entire dynamic with Sonic's shot in the foot. Thus removing the purpose for Amy to be featured in the first place.



Amy is far too invested in things like clothes and shopping to truly understand the value of things deep down. A lesson Mina should at least offer to help Bunnie come to grips with it. Amy is very Sonic centered, and wouldn't really care about the other characters that much. Any characters who do wind up in Amy circle get suckered into her schemes. She doesn't really have many dynamics to offer compared to Mina. Speaking of Amy she'd need a new outfit. There's no way she'd get around with that "trendy" outfit in SatAM.

Last I checked, Sonic's so invested in living a carefree life that he can't be bothered to dedicate his life into putting Dr. Eggman out of commission once and for all. Otherwise he'd get bored whenever he has a sudden urge to save the world.


Apples and oranges. Eggman's affected Sonic's life and world far differently then Julian. Eggman is also not the menace that Julian is and is seen as a joke. It's really not uncommon for Sonic to underestimate things in SatAM. But in any case, with clear threats to the world like Chaos, Iblis, etc. Sonic is very dedicated to taking them down. Sonic's also very cocky like in SatAM so it doesn't matter to him what Eggman throws his way, he'll stop it. He also doesn't look back to consider past mistakes. He doesn't have a voice of reason or morality that says "Robotniks' schemes have caused a lot of problems, learn from Sonic Adventure what happened to Chaos. Could you live with what happened if Robotnik's schemes DID create an even greater devestation?" Sonic is very much so what happens when you pit SoJ's character into a SatAM enviornment. The only difference is that the game's version of Sonic has a bit of a pokerface. This is portrayed with INCREDIBLE subtleness in the games. So much so that most westerners don't notice it exists. What Sonic's inner side (or honne) is anyone's guess. Likewise the idea Sonic could have inward insecurities that he doesn't really express to anyone, is also possible.


Oh wait, that's just Sonic as he exists in the universe of the current games. Just as the SatAM Sonic exibits different motivations, so would an SatAM Amy. It goes without saying that the Amy Rose who lives a comfortable life in Station Square would act vastly different from the Amy Rose who has to live under the threat of a totalitarian dictatorship every single day. With that in mind, Amy should be free to develop a personality that fits within the SatAM-universe and not bound to how the games portray her.



Again. I don't mind the history of the character changing. But its as I've said with Metal Sonic, and so on. It's one thing to modify the history of the character if the gist of them's the same. If the characterization and the dynamic have to be stripped there's no point in putting them in because they no longer resemble the character who they were supposed to portray. Besides, if Amy matured she'd still be a threat to Sally =). But seriously, I think a genuine idea about what AMY herself can contribute in her own unique way, needs to be considered.

#34 Guest_Talonfire_*

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 05:46 AM

QUOTE ("Miko":2joj22q6)
QUOTE

Again. I don't mind the history of the character changing. But its as I've said with Metal Sonic, and so on. It's one thing to modify the history of the character if the gist of them's the same. If the characterization and the dynamic have to be stripped there's no point in putting them in because they no longer resemble the character who they were supposed to portray. Besides, if Amy matured she'd still be a threat to Sally =). But seriously, I think a genuine idea about what AMY herself can contribute in her own unique way, needs to be considered.


And this is one of the biggest reasons I'm iffy about the addition of pre-existing Sonic characters from other universes. For example one of Shadow's defining traits is his background and Maria plus Gerald Robotnik couldn't possibly fit into the setting if Matt indeed goes with the original SatAM origin of Robotnik. If you can't keep the background and personality at least remotely similar (Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik excluded since they didn't have fleshed out histories and personalities back then), then what is the point? You might as well create a new character that suits the character you're trying to portray. That way you won't upset existing fans for that character, and people may actually end up liking the new guy.

Characters like Metal Sonic are another story. Metal Sonic has no real personality, and has so many backgrounds that it doesn't really matter how he's designed.

#35 Ratty Randnums

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE ("Talonfire":2l13qmqx)
Think what you want about me, I have little concern for the matter. I support creative freedom as long as it makes sense in the context of story telling.

You never explained how brining in a few new characters doesn't make sense in the context of storytelling. As a story progresses new characters do typically tend to appear. And how limiting his ability to tell stories as such makes sense.

QUOTE ("Talonfire":2l13qmqx)
Don't believe me and operate under the impression that I think only my opinion matters? Oh well, not my loss, remind me not to debate with you again.

Okay it's fine that you can't disprove me, it seems you're just not big on backing up your statements happy.gif

QUOTE ("Talonfire":2l13qmqx)
QUOTE
Because character driven stories, character development and greatly increasing the number of regular viewers are leik ttly a bummer amirite?


???

I always called it sarcasm, that's what the netspeak is used to indicate. :3 "Use only the characters they HAVE to", following your mandate there, maybe Matt could just have Sonic traveling in a existential void through space pondering the mysteries of life, he uses his speed, but in the end he just can't outrun himself...
Or one could bring in characters that would bring depth and storytelling potential and, in Mina and maybe one or two other Archie characters case, lots of new viewers and a better chance to be picked up. Dunno :3


Ohh so he does understand sarcasm sometimes:
QUOTE ("Talonfire":2l13qmqx)
QUOTE
no company in their right mind would start off at that point just to please a tiny fanbase.


You're Matt? Since when?

Matt is an entire production company, and is pitching the idea for the show to himself?! Since... well, I hope you already get the picture by naow this time :3
"I really think of life as a great expression of joy. And if you take yourself seriously you're going to be defeated I'm afraid.
...Maybe that is the whole recipe of life, is to be in on the joke. Because life is a joke and if you're not in on it you're out.
But if you're in on it, you can make it." - Vincent Price

"What have you got to lose? You know you come from nothing you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"
- Eric Idle

#36 Guest_Talonfire_*

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 08:37 AM

QUOTE ("Ratty":2og1ypzh)
You never explained how brining in a few new characters doesn't make sense in the context of storytelling. As a story progresses new characters do typically tend to appear. And how limiting his ability to tell story's as such makes sense.


Hmm, I have no problem with new characters and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I dislike the idea. I just feel that if they want to introduce new characters, they should go with completely fresh, or SEGA characters (preferably the former). Archie is pretty hated in the SEGASonic community from what I've seen, so introducing characters that originate from Archie's storyline doesn't strike me as a good idea. I'm an open minded guy, but that doesn't mean I have to support the pro-Archie folks.

QUOTE
Okay it's fine that you can't disprove me, it seems you're just not big on backing up your statements happy.gif


Backing them with what? This is little more than an opinionsuggestion thread. I don't support the inclusion of Mina for various reasons, if you do more power to you.


QUOTE
I always called it sarcasm, that's what the netspeak is used to indicate. :3 "Use only the characters they HAVE to", following your mandate there, maybe Matt could just have Sonic traveling in a existential void through space pondering the mysteries of life, he uses his speed, but in the end he just can't outrun himself...
Or one could bring in characters that would bring depth and storytelling potential and, in Mina and maybe one or two other Archie characters case, lots of new viewers and a better chance to be picked up. Dunno :3


Well this was the source of my confusion. I don't recall speaking out against depth and great storytelling in what you quoted. The thing is, you don't NEED Archie characters for great storytelling and depth, you can easily create your own. Bringing in new characters doesn't necessarily mean you have to pull them from Archie's vault.

QUOTE
Matt is an entire production company, and is pitching the idea for the show to himself?! Since... well, I hope you already get the picture by naow this time :3


I'm not an idiot like you seem to believe, but you're missing my point. From what I've read, Matt is interested in continuing SatAM in order to help it live up to its potential. It's true that someone like SEGA may be skeptical, but this is where compromise comes in. Agree to add a few SEGA characters and such, and you might get a continuation. Just because it seems impossible, doesn't mean it is.

Sorry if my posts are coming across as confusing. Sometimes I tend to be vague.

#37 Guest_Miko_*

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 08:56 AM

QUOTE
Well this was the source of my confusion. I don't recall speaking out against depth and great storytelling in what you quoted. The thing is, you don't NEED Archie characters for great storytelling and depth, you can easily create your own. Bringing in new characters doesn't necessarily mean you have to pull them from Archie's vault.



That's wasteful. Making a new character when we have one already in stock that can do the exact same thing. It's unecessarily adding even more characters to the Sonic franchise. The only thing you've said is "I don't like the comic" this isn't about whether you like the medium she came from. This is about how well she'd compliment the story. If you think making a new character from scratch needs to be done, please explain why. But don't say so for the sake of saying so.

#38 Guest_Talonfire_*

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 08:59 AM

Not really, Mina is an Archie character so Archie uses her; therefore she's not being wasted. I don't see why the writers should be stuck with only using pre-existing characters, they should have the freedom to create their own. Can you imagine what SatAM would have been like if they just stuck with Sonic, Tails and Robotnik and the other minor Sonic characters at the time, and introduced no new characters?

#39 Guest_Miko_*

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 09:07 AM

QUOTE ("Talonfire":3r62vtwy)
Not really, Mina is an Archie character so Archie uses her; therefore she's not being wasted. I don't see why the writers should be stuck with only using pre-existing characters, they should have the freedom to create their own. Can you imagine what SatAM would have been like if they just stuck with Sonic, Tails and Robotnik and the other minor Sonic characters at the time, and introduced no new characters?


Yes, and clutter up the Sonic franchise. Again, you're just saying no Mina because you want Matt to make a new character whose essentially what she was. You're not saying at all that Mina cannot fit. Besides, Archie rarely uses Mina, and they've never been particularly well at writing her. In any case, it is wasteful because you add even more characters to the Sonic franchise. You've provided no means of explaining why what Mina has to offer is nothing, and how a new character doing it would be too much better.


QUOTE
For example one of Shadow's defining traits is his background and Maria plus Gerald Robotnik couldn't possibly fit into the setting if Matt indeed goes with the original SatAM origin of Robotnik. If you can't keep the background and personality at least remotely similar (Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik excluded since they didn't have fleshed out histories and personalities back then), then what is the point?



The fact that all the game characters, even Sonic and Tails getting their backstories slashed means demonstrates that the essence of the character is not simply their backstory. If you can reproduce the dynamics of the character, as well as their personality, its fine as far as SatAM's concerned. It's important to note that I can understand the distaste for game characters who cannot produce a specific purpose to the characters already in the show. Besides I'm not arguing about Shadow the hedgehog. This topic is about Mina. How does the gist of Mina's backstory suddenly become incompatible with SatAM? If you want to discuss the broader subject of non SatAM characters, there's a place for it

QUOTE
You might as well create a new character that suits the character you're trying to portray. That way you won't upset existing fans for that character, and people may actually end up liking the new guy.



A slight change in backstory's not going to sink Mina's chances, nor Knuckles. If that were true SatAM would be a lost cause. The gist of her backstory is fine with SatAM, can provide emotional conflict, and Mina as a character has something to contribute to the series.

#40 Guest_Talonfire_*

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 09:16 AM

So what you're saying is that Archie and SEGA have the right to create brand new characters, but the writers of a SatAM revival can't? I'm sorry, but I simply don't agree. This isn't about what medium Mina comes from, this is about her being an already existing character who has her chance in the Archie comics. If you don't like how Archie portrays their own character, then tell them. I see no reason to restrict the freedom of the writers even further just for that. If the writers want to include the character, fine, but somehow I can't see that happening since most professionals prefer working with their own characters.




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