18 replies to this topic

[TheRedStranger]

http://wapo.st/NwHn4k

 

 Obviously we as a voting people have failed to forecast the obvious. How and what do you think about this geopolitical hot bed of a situation between Russia and Amercia?  

[Uncle Ben]

Its just a pissing match right now...

 

But i fear its gonna get worse

[Alextendo]

What is worse? How this situation evolve (or devolve) or the fact that the new Ukrenian coalition are a group of Neo-Nazi, supported by the US goverment?

[TheRedStranger]

What is worse? How this situation evolve (or devolve) or the fact that the new Ukrenian coalition are a group of Neo-Nazi, supported by the US goverment?

 

[Citation needed...Please don't make such claims with out backing them up with dependable sources like Bytor above. He is generally a good example to go by. Note that the goal of this discussion is not to villify any one nation but to understand the issues at hand.]

 

Let's start with Motivation. Why does Russia want Crimea and to push into Ukraine? Bytor has already implied such in his recent analogy. It seems Russia wants acess to the Black Sea like they did with Georgia (which was also over oil).

[Uncle Ben]

I think the only reason why Putin is getting away with this is because he knows Obama wont do much

 

Let's start with Motivation. Why does Russia want Crimea? Bytor has already implied such in his recent analogy. It seems Russia wants acess to the Black Sea like they did with Georgia (which was also over oil).

 

 

Crimea has a 65% Russian-heritage population. Most consider themselves Russian.

[Alextendo]

 

What is worse? How this situation evolve (or devolve) or the fact that the new Ukrenian coalition are a group of Neo-Nazi, supported by the US goverment?

 

[Citation needed...Please don't make such claims with out backing them up with dependable sources like Bytor above. He is generally a good example to go by. Note that the goal of this discussion is not to villify any one nation but to understand the issues at hand.]

*Cough*

 

 

Beside, you can easily look by yourself by a quick research. This situation is well documented already. Don't rely on these corporated mainstream media, because since they are controlled by the goverment, they aren't going to tell you any of this.

 

So, as you can see, i wasn't calling them ''Neo-Nazi'' just for being an asshole. I called them Neo-Nazi because they are a group of Neo-Nazi. I don't know if i should be surprise if not alot of people are unaware of these details (after all, with the media lies and all...)

[TheRedStranger]

Don't rely on these corporated mainstream media, because since they are controlled by the goverment, they aren't going to tell you any of this.

 

That's a very dogey claim to make over a society in which media competes for the next big scoop. You could cast aspercions on SCG with even more arbitrary vehemence and suspicion for being a shady Youtube group with a guy who sounds like he is recording in his garrage, manipulating a series of fragmented primary sources for his own benifit of confirmation bias to further his own publicity and goals.

 

 Hm...this video is rather questionable in assuming that America is delibertly trying to back this group of Ultranationalists specifically which have intermingled themselves into paraliment. And it also uses mainsteam media secondary sources to verify some of it's own claims (like those about Syria). And makes some harsh accusations over the little it shows to represent thousands of competing media outlets.

 

The truth is that Russia and America are indeed playing a game of cat and mouse with the third world (sound familiar?) But to SCG is far to conspiratorial in it's assumptions and seems rather opinionated as well as somewhat paranoid. They same things could have been said over the Jews and the Arabs back in the times of the Six-Day War but that didn't happen. Let's not assume a full scale war will commence shall we? This video seems to affirm the consequent a bit too much for comfort.

 

But you have a point about some of the Obama Administration's questionable geopolitical acts as of late...It seems the current adminstration is big on indirect backbiting, underhand bribery (Obama is giving this current questionable goverment 5 BILLION DOLLARS OF OUR TAX MONEY) and sloppy support of certain groups.

 

Let's remember the forgotten truth about the Carter Administration and capitalist Rhodesia. Carter backed the wrong political horse in their puppetering and it didn't end well. Rhodesia is now communist Zimbabwe, the poorest and one of the most corrupt corrupt nations on Earth. This could happen to Ukraine if not properly and directly (rather than passivly) handled.    

 

 Ben gives us an excellent point. Is Obama and his current adminstration inept? For example Senator Carrey was sent to negotiate over this issue... To which one prominent political analyst bluntly put it: "This is like a cupcake negotiating with a steak knife."  Given what Alex has said about the passive-agressive underhandedness and sloppy geopolitical backing of a very dangerous mixed goverment, what are your opinions of the American responce? And is Puttin testing the waters with this questionable administration?

[Alextendo]

If you don't want to belive that, it's up to you. If you don't trust this video, you can do more research and find others source on your own....or rely on mainstream media (spoiler: not a good idea). But i'll greatly suggest to make research instead of refuting this information without taking the time to take it in consideration. Otherwise, i'll start to belive you'll only want to pick one side and ignore completely the other.

 

For everyone else (and for you too, Redstranger...but only if you want to see), here's a video on the subject of the Russian in Crimea:

 

 

PS: Don't pretend that there is any communist country left to this day, because there is no one. Even China and the DPRK aren't communist country anymore.

PS2: A link for info about the Neo-Nazi Party in Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia....olitical_party)

[Alextendo]

After a quick search, i easily found some other source about the group of facism.

 

http://www.alternet....o-nazis-ukraine

 

http://www.infowars....n-kiev-ukraine/

[Alextendo]

@Alextendo: thanks for the info

No prob comrade

[TheRedStranger]

 

 

Given what Alex has said about the passive-agressive underhandedness and sloppy geopolitical backing of a very dangerous mixed goverment, what are your opinions of the American responce? And is Puttin testing the waters with this questionable administration?

 

It's very simple: entities within U.S./E.U. are using Ukraine for their own national interests, just as Russia is. Russia has essentially reclaimed the land that once belonged to it; for those who do not know Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 when they were all part of the USSR.

Personally I see this as "Comrade Wolf" drawing a line in the sand telling Europe and America to go no further. And for those who believe in American exceptionalism and think; "We'll just go in and kick their pinko commie asses" think again, Russia is a real threat and America is spread way too thin to tangle with the great bear.

 

@Alextendo: thanks for the info; I've actually been hearing whispers through various media sources about this for a time now. In fact I remember from a German news paper back when Russia invaded Georgia there were allegations about American special forces (CIA) on the ground fighting against the Russians; the same is alleged right now by the government of Venezuela: they expelled American diplomats for allegedly insighting violence.

 

 

Given the state of our Military due to the Obama Administration yes. Much like the Carter Administration I fear we have an inept command that is pulling out the fangs of our military and being passive agressive (which ironically is more damaging) thus people are taking advantage. I have discussed the issue of our nations military with many within the military up at Frankfort, and they hate the current administration, calling Obama "Zero" (for his lack of tactical intellgence and military experiance). My father is an ex-solider turned logistical merc for the U.S Army and he is seeing people who are purple heart veterans being cast aside by these arbitrary budget cuts.  Putin and his big russia-centric, imperialistic bear wants what they "own" back (though technically they were an independant nation long, long before and let's remember that Russia is being very agressive about other surrounding territories). This is different in some respects from the way we gave away the Pannama cannel. We orchestrated and funded it's construction where other big nations failed to do so and haven't threatened with troops to take it back since 1999. Russia wants a warm-water port in the Black Sea and to etch their way back east. The people are just collateral. 

 

Maduro is paranoid. But I wouldn't be suprised if the CIA is mucking about with Venezula for our nation's "benefit" in it's own way.

 

 Alex, there has never been a true communist nation. There never will be. Communism is not merely dead, it was always stillborn. People are naturally divergent and resist collectivism And I am not denying Fascist influence in the nation. I agree with you on many aspects, but I don't agree with the videos conclusions and responces to others (for example the one Crimiean video can be called out to be a argumentum ad homenum smear that doesn't entertain it's arguments) or the ethos of the speaker. I think the best way to find truth is through a multiplicity of sources. Being parnoid about "mainstream" media leads you to become just as epistomologically selective. This discussion in itself is what I desired for cross examination.

[Uncle Ben]

Just gonna leave this here...

 

[Alextendo]

Being parnoid about "mainstream" media leads you to become just as epistomologically selective. This discussion in itself is what I desired for cross examination.

It's not about being ''paranoid'' on the subject of mainstream media. These media are now litterally corrupt to the core. We simply couln't trust them anymore. Furthermore, it didn't started yesterday, even during the cold war the corruption was already established. Just the coveraged of the ''Gulf of Tumkin even'' of 1964 is a clear exemple of how long it goes. So in the end, i simply can't trust these media since they change or denied the fact too many time to be reliable.

[Alextendo]

 Alex, there has never been a true communist nation. There never will be. Communism is not merely dead, it was always stillborn

It's not to me, nor you or anyone to judge what could really be considered a ''true'' communist nation. Also, i might be wrong, but i think this subject has been already debunked and prooved wrong. I'm not gonna say anything more on this topic right now for 2 reason:

 

1-it's getting late (no, really! As i'm writting this, it's nearly midnight)

2-I always prefer to be 100% sure that what i said is true and accurate. Making mistake and realise that i would be wrong would cause backlash agaisnt me and for good reason.

 

For those reason and also because it's not really the topic for that subject, i won't go any further. But if you want to talk about it, then sure, why not? I'll be glad to join this debate.

 

Anyway, i'll go now. Good night everyone (unless it's not night when you'll read this)

[TheRedStranger]

 

Being parnoid about "mainstream" media leads you to become just as epistomologically selective. This discussion in itself is what I desired for cross examination.

It's not about being ''paranoid'' on the subject of mainstream media. These media are now litterally corrupt to the core. We simply couln't trust them anymore. Furthermore, it didn't started yesterday, even during the cold war the corruption was already established. Just the coveraged of the ''Gulf of Tumkin even'' of 1964 is a clear exemple of how long it goes. So in the end, i simply can't trust these media since they change or denied the fact too many time to be reliable.

 

 

  Don't forget their is a multplicity of competitive journalistic entities spanning the globe here that can not be generalized or homogenized into one ephmeral group and to say there's been a slippery slope of degredation as this specific divergent industry has increasingly become more accountable and undermined by survaillance culture and more independant journalism is questionable. If one is caught hiding X another will capitalize on it by trying to hound them out with more objective journalism. Bytor gave a great example of this in the Venezula discussion where one Fox journalist was called out for his blithe comments on the Great Depression, he was then held accountable.

 

Then who are you to judge that aforementioned judgement?  This in itself is statement about a judgment about weighing the nature of communism. The second responce was the logical fallacy of begging the question, Petitio Principii.

 

Sleep, Alex, don't get your blood boiling and rest...it's late where you are and this is not the ultimate topic of the current dialogue at hand. Enjoy your rest.

Just gonna leave this here...

 

 

Is it getting Cold in here...or is it just me?

[TheRedStranger]

Hm...I always knew something was up with the NYT as well. They always seemed to support Obama's administration. no matter what. It always unsettled me...and something she says confirmed my suspicion. This is also solid proof that there is an increasing accountability not decreasing. The problem is US! We the people act like we the cattle and never think critically about the issues and arguments given. Look at public school...how many of you took a required class in Logical Reasoning? How many of you can tell me the difference between an abusive and circumstantial ad homenum? The truth is the more discerning and rational your populace is as a whole , the more free they become. Nobody can fool them easily of without being heavily resisted and pointed out.

I actually did an experiment once while in High-School. I asked a series of kids what they thought of Bush. They scowled and called all sorts of names and what mere entertainers said about him...Then I asked WHY he was bad, questioned them....They all went dumbfounded. It was as if I questioned an axiom. These people are now voters. Think hard on that. One yuck with a question-begging one-liner is enough to make them fling their ballot to one way or the other. Infotainment is the propaganda of the 21 century. It literally tricks the brain into passively accepting the info by appealing to the limbic system through flashy graphics and sound-bites rather than the prefrontal cortex where critical thought is produced. Passive consummation of media encourages non-critical thinking and gullibility.

Bytor, remind me to discuss with you the implications of John Dewey on public schooling in America. And the time I caught The Guardian of guard.

[brmsort]

So there are all sorts of players in this conflict, and they are all trying to spin the public's opinion in their favor. So what is the truth? Who knows! But what do I know?

1. Russia is its own nation with its own interests.

2. Ukraine is its own nation with its own interests.

3. Russia procures a portion of the Ukraine by military action.

 

So I see two legitimate players in this conflict: Russia and Ukraine. It is not any of our business even if we can construe that it endangers our "assets" abroad. This whole issue is between two sovereign states -- it is for them to work out.

[TheRedStranger]

So there are all sorts of players in this conflict, and they are all trying to spin the public's opinion in their favor. So what is the truth? Who knows! But what do I know?
1. Russia is its own nation with its own interests.
2. Ukraine is its own nation with its own interests.
3. Russia procures a portion of the Ukraine by military action.

So I see two legitimate players in this conflict: Russia and Ukraine. It is not any of our business even if we can construe that it endangers our "assets" abroad. This whole issue is between two sovereign states -- it is for them to work out.

Remember this effects the EU and thereby us and our allies. Putin
is trying to push his way to the Mediterranean because Russia's economy is really bad off and he knows the western powers like America won't do anything with a eunuch in office who wants to throw more of our tax money in this questionable pit the way he does with militant and terrorist harboring Pakistan. Due to globalization and the bad blood of the Cold War...I do not see it being that easy. It's a line of dominos, once Putin, who is ex-K.G.B and "won" a questionable third term in office, puts his hands on Crimea and sees he can get away with it...then we have problems.

Obama is pulling some very elitist moves here. He is just freezing the accounts of big money politicos. If you want Putin to kowtow stab at his nation with embargoes and sanctions on the whole country and urge the EU to do the same. He needs to pull out of Ukraine and let the vote for Crimean independence be given without Russian guns floating about their heads...

And this speaking Russian thing thus Crimeans want to be Russian is silly. I speak English...but I won't go back being Brittish.

[TheRedStranger]

http://www.businessi...-economy-2014-3

I don't know. Let's compare notes. I have read their economic advisor is not pleased right now...