32 replies to this topic

[Prince ByTor]

The other day I noticed that on the Sonic News Network Wiki page that they split SatAM Sally and Archie Sally on two separate pages, which is okay I guess.

That got me thinking, are all of the Freedom Fighters from Archie completely separate characters from their original incarnations on SatAM even though they were based on them? I can see it both ways, or perhaps, as Archie has done so many times, just waved a magic wand and say they are the same characters from "another dimension."

 

Anyway, does anyone else have thoughts or opinions on the subject?

[TheRedStranger]

Well let's list the descrpencies between the two, focusing on where their timelines overlap (because future issues of the comics can be handwaved off as character development/growth/change..

[Prince ByTor]

Well, for one I can think of off the top of my head is Rotor was called Boomer early on in the comic.

[Uncle Ben]

short answer: Yes

[RedAuthar]

Yes.  While having Similar histories, The Universe of SatAM and Archie Didn't always line up, even before the retcon.  Naugus is a prime example of that.  

 

Actually the Archie Comics hinted at Robo-Robotnik being the Robotnik from the SatAM universe originally, and the Cyborg Sonic being the original, however that has always seemed far-fetched to me.  

[Prince ByTor]

Yes.  While having Similar histories, The Universe of SatAM and Archie Didn't always line up, even before the retcon.  Naugus is a prime example of that.  

 

Actually the Archie Comics hinted at Robo-Robotnik being the Robotnik from the SatAM universe originally, and the Cyborg Sonic being the original, however that has always seemed far-fetched to me.  

 

Also, it always bothered me that in Robo-Robotnik's original timeline that they just "nuked" everybody so nonchalantly. So if it was the case that his world was the world of SatAM, were the writers from Archie killing off the Freedom Fighters that we actually love?

[LogiTeeka]

Considering the universe which the Archie comics takes place is called "Mobius Prime", I guess that makes the SatAM universe one of the many variations spun-off from it. So basically, the Archie Mobius is the source of all the American continuities (even perhaps the fictional AoStH*).

However, Mobius Prime is only one of many versions of Sonic's homeworld which exist throughout the multiverse. You also have Earth (SegaSonic), Planet Freedom (the OVA), and other versions of Mobius located in separate dimensions (Sonic X and the Fleetway comics). Considering their completely different histories, it's safe to say that they don't share the same multiverse that Mobius Prime has.

What's also interesting to note is that the Archie comics is the only Sonic series to acknowledge the existence and make contact with other continuities (e.g. Archie Sonic has teamed up with the Sonic Underground once, Archie Shadow had an encounter with the cast of "Sonic X", Robo-Robotnik is hinted to be the SatAM Robotnik, and the SegaSonic world is said to be the original reality which Mobius Prime stems from. And according to Ian, one of the universes caught in the battle between Nega and the Zone Cops is the Fleetway universe).

* = I don't count AoStH as an actual universe, on account of the final episode implying it was all fictional.

[TheRedStranger]

Who here despises the very concept of a multi-verse as trite, forced, convoluted, depreciating of the uniqueness of the now non-unique characters and mileu, and lazy/sloppy writing? Especially when it comes to making characters. Look at amazing villans that foil their heros like...

 

 

 

 But here at Archie. Nope, let's just make an anti-Sonic and give him a leather jacket ! Note I'm not criticizing Scourge but what came before him. Honestly I think Satam is "it" for meta-fictional reasons of quality and potential. You have better foundation to build more. And with Blast from the Past You Can Retcon some material you didn't like via a butterfly effect. It's more workable and managable. I take some concepts from the comic for EoT, but they're completly subverted and put on their head. The Satam elements stick (except Dulcy...people are going to like what I do with her). 

 

 And then you got this....http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Luna_Zone So original.

[Prince ByTor]

Whilst I detest the whole idea of explaining away all the continuities with the "magic wand" that is this Sonic Multiverse, as long as Sega and all of the fanbases keep everything so fractured I really see no other way of making all of the continuities not mutually exclusive.

That why I personally am of the opinion to keep SatAM and SegaSonic there own separate things where one exists without the other and there is no interaction. In other words, just because a person, place, or thing is in one continuity does not mean that it must exist in all.

[E122Psi]

Keep in mind the comics were loosely tied to Satam to begin with. They were based on the early bibles and concept work used for the pilot episode (eg. Sally's design, Rotor being called Boomer and most of the cast being significantly more goofy in tone), and the stories were much more akin to the setup of AoSth (along with utilizing some characters from the other show at times as well) not to mention heavily adapted pieces from the games themselves and added it's own lunacy on top. While it has always wanted to tie in with the show and other medias, I think it has always been a rather separate continuity.

[RedAuthar]

 

But here at Archie. Nope, let's just make an anti-Sonic and give him a leather jacket ! 

Do note that the concept of a Multiverse and Anti-s came from DC comics first.

 

Also, at least when he was Anti-Sonic, the character had an excuse, he was Sonic from a dimension where the heroes were villains and vice-versa.  Scourge is just a lamer recolor of Sonic who takes on the "Bad Attitude" traits from Shadow.  His design is lazy, his appearance is pretty much the same as every "Cinos" in existence, and other than being an "Evil Sonic" for the sake of being a "evil Sonic" he still has no personality.  Yes he's slightly more of a creative idea, but everything now is "just cuz" instead of "just cuz he's from the Anti-Mobius"

[TheRedStranger]

 

 

But here at Archie. Nope, let's just make an anti-Sonic and give him a leather jacket ! 

Do note that the concept of a Multiverse and Anti-s came from DC comics first.

 

Also, at least when he was Anti-Sonic, the character had an excuse, he was Sonic from a dimension where the heroes were villains and vice-versa.  Scourge is just a lamer recolor of Sonic who takes on the "Bad Attitude" traits from Shadow.  His design is lazy, his appearance is pretty much the same as every "Cinos" in existence, and other than being an "Evil Sonic" for the sake of being a "evil Sonic" he still has no personality.  Yes he's slightly more of a creative idea, but everything now is "just cuz" instead of "just cuz he's from the Anti-Mobius"

 

 

And remember what they did after all that? How they trimmed the fat? Shouldn't we all learn from our mistakes? 

 

  Honestly...I find his whole Rogue's gallery besides Satam Robotnik and maybe SA Eggman to be rather lack-luster.

[furrykef]

Archie and SatAM were different continuities from day one. Archie Sonic started as an odd mishmash of SatAM, AoStH, and the games. SatAM 'cause of the SatAM cast (pink Sally and "Boomer" instead of "Rotor" aside -- both were holdovers from an earlier phase of SatAM's development), and Robotnik using his SatAM design; AoStH because of Scratch, Grounder, and Coconuts; the games because of the plentiful rings (which didn't work much like SatAM's power rings at first), chaos emeralds, elements like springboards, etc. And there were game adaptations in the comic from the earliest days, too, like Sonic Spinball was featured in Sonic #6, and Sonic 3 was featured in Sonic #13.

Archie didn't reboot the continuity after switching to being based mostly on SatAM continuity (and even then they occasionally had Crabmeat, and maybe even Scratch and Grounder), which also happened early on (the transition was mostly complete circa Sonic #20), which meant that Archie's continuity quickly became inconsistent with itself, never mind with SatAM. This occasionally manifested in strange ways; one early issue talked about Mobius's many moons, which seemed to fit a whimsical AoStH-like world, but a later issue somewhere between #20 and #40 (I don't remember which one) talked about the moon, as though Mobius had just one. Basically the older material was simply ignored whenever it was inconvenient.

[TheRedStranger]

Archie and SatAM were different continuities from day one. Archie Sonic started as an odd mishmash of SatAM, AoStH, and the games. SatAM 'cause of the SatAM cast (pink Sally and "Boomer" instead of "Rotor" aside -- both were holdovers from an earlier phase of SatAM's development), and Robotnik using his SatAM design; AoStH because of Scratch, Grounder, and Coconuts; the games because of the plentiful rings (which didn't work much like SatAM's power rings at first), chaos emeralds, elements like springboards, etc. And there were game adaptations in the comic from the earliest days, too, like Sonic Spinball was featured in Sonic #6, and Sonic 3 was featured in Sonic #13.

Archie didn't reboot the continuity after switching to being based mostly on SatAM continuity (and even then they occasionally had Crabmeat, and maybe even Scratch and Grounder), which also happened early on (the transition was mostly complete circa Sonic #20), which meant that Archie's continuity quickly became inconsistent with itself, never mind with SatAM. This occasionally manifested in strange ways; one early issue talked about Mobius's many moons, which seemed to fit a whimsical AoStH-like world, but a later issue somewhere between #20 and #40 (I don't remember which one) talked about the moon, as though Mobius had just one. Basically the older material was simply ignored whenever it was inconvenient.

 

Indeed they wanteduse  what they thought would work from the material given to make profitable issues, and they then threw out the rest. Though it carries a lot of the spirit of Satam due Satam having the most substance to inspire more narratives, It's more a loyal once loyal spirtual sucessor than a spin-off of Satam.

[LogiTeeka]

Also, at least when he was Anti-Sonic, the character had an excuse, he was Sonic from a dimension where the heroes were villains and vice-versa. Scourge is just a lamer recolor of Sonic who takes on the "Bad Attitude" traits from Shadow. His design is lazy, his appearance is pretty much the same as every "Cinos" in existence, and other than being an "Evil Sonic" for the sake of being a "evil Sonic" he still has no personality. Yes he's slightly more of a creative idea, but everything now is "just cuz" instead of "just cuz he's from the Anti-Mobius"

When you put it that way, both concepts sound incredibly dull; the original "anti-Sonic" being a pathetic attempt at an evil Sonic, and Scourge, while a better attempt, was still the lame idea he started off as.

But if that's the case, who's the "better" anti-Sonic?
Shadow? Nah, he's just a misguided rogue who happens to look like him.
Metal Sonic? Uh uh, he's more of an obstacle than an arch-rival.
Jet the Hawk? Pfft, he wishes.

Really, when you get down to it, there isn't a lot of options. Seems like Scourge is the ideal choice.

[Hammer]

Hey, when and how did they exactly "hint" that Robo-Robotnik was SatAM Robotnik? I mean, couldn't his dimension be just another dimension similar to Mobius Prime and SatAM's?

[RedAuthar]

 

Also, at least when he was Anti-Sonic, the character had an excuse, he was Sonic from a dimension where the heroes were villains and vice-versa. Scourge is just a lamer recolor of Sonic who takes on the "Bad Attitude" traits from Shadow. His design is lazy, his appearance is pretty much the same as every "Cinos" in existence, and other than being an "Evil Sonic" for the sake of being a "evil Sonic" he still has no personality. Yes he's slightly more of a creative idea, but everything now is "just cuz" instead of "just cuz he's from the Anti-Mobius"

When you put it that way, both concepts sound incredibly dull; the original "anti-Sonic" being a pathetic attempt at an evil Sonic, and Scourge, while a better attempt, was still the lame idea he started off as.

But if that's the case, who's the "better" anti-Sonic?
Shadow? Nah, he's just a misguided rogue who happens to look like him.
Metal Sonic? Uh uh, he's more of an obstacle than an arch-rival.
Jet the Hawk? Pfft, he wishes.

Really, when you get down to it, there isn't a lot of options. Seems like Scourge is the ideal choice.

 

The difference is Shadow never claimed to be an "Anti-Sonic".  The Racist World of SEGA of Japan Sonic just assumed because he's a male Hedgehog he had to be Sonic.  

 

Metal is more of a malfunction.  In the games he started of as your stereotypical evil doppelganger fight, however was boosted to Grandeur with things such as Sonic OVA and the Comics.  Gamewise it wasn't until Sonic Heroes did Metal Actual show any interest in becoming the "Real Sonic".  

 

Jet isn't really a fair comparison because out of all the suggestions he is the one who is trying to be another Sonic the least.  He just is a rival for the title of fastest thing alive.  

 

When he was Anti-Sonic, Scourge didn't claim to be anything but.  He only wanted to be a better evil-Sonic than Sonic was good.  However when he became Scourge he tried to be something different....by being a better evil-Sonic than Sonic was good.  Again, Anti-Sonic's design isn't all that great, but he was designed to be an "Anti-Sonic" so it works.  Scourge is designed to be "something more" but doesn't do anything to make himself anything more than "Anti-Sonic".  

 

Hey, when and how did they exactly "hint" that Robo-Robotnik was SatAM Robotnik? I mean, couldn't his dimension be just another dimension similar to Mobius Prime and SatAM's?

I forget....I'll see if I can find it again after work today...

 

But it was something to do with the Similar Histories of the Two Robotniks and the darker feel of Cyborg Sonic's history.  "Speculated" would probably come off as a better word than "Hint".  

[Hammer]

I'll wait until someone confirms it, but I find it hard to believe that they added something that hinted that the timeline Robo-Robotnik comes from is actually SatAM's and not any other. I mean, how could it be? "Humans in Earth watched my timeline through TV and heard me speak in Jim Cummings's voice".

 

Speculation, as you say, seems a lot more likely.

[furrykef]

I think SatAM was still up in the air when Robo-Robotnik was introduced. I mean, it might have been sorta cancelled already, but I don't think the nail was in the coffin yet. So it certainly couldn't have been Archie's original intention because they'd be stepping on the toes of a show that might still go on. They could retcon it like that later on, but, well, why? I don't see a point.

[Hammer]

Well, the Wolf Pack was introduced in Archie way before Endgame if I remember well, and it included a note telling readers to watch Cry of the Wolf, so SatAM was close to its end.

That also tells us that (at least some) of the episodes happened in Mobius Prime too.