81 replies to this topic

[E122Psi]

 

The problem is this is when we get things like the infamous slap scene.  In the situation, which is totally in her character as I've said before many a time

The slap was in character? If it were in character, we wouldn't be seeing so many people complaining about it. I think the slap was antithetical to her character, even considering a mental breakdown (I don't think the breakdown itself was OOC, just The Slap). Claiming that Sonic was being selfish didn't even make the slightest bit of sense (which Sonic called her out on, but that didn't make the fact she did it any more believable), especially considering he was acting the way she'd always acted and the way she'd always want him to act, putting his country's needs above his own. Seriously, where did this idea even come from?

 

I think there are some key traits that it linked to Sal, albeit overblown and played in a pretentious, melodramatic light. It's sorta like taking a slapstick henpecked husband and then playing all his abuse in a deadly serious and dark fashion.

 

Sally is pushy and calls Sonic thoughtless in excess in Satam, she has the credentials of a bad tempered control freak on several occasions (eg. Secret Scrolls) it's just the execution is light hearted and harmless.

 

Now the fact she is so rarely called out on it in either circumstances however...

[RedAuthar]

 

The problem is this is when we get things like the infamous slap scene.  In the situation, which is totally in her character as I've said before many a time

The slap was in character? If it were in character, we wouldn't be seeing so many people complaining about it. I think the slap was antithetical to her character, even considering a mental breakdown (I don't think the breakdown itself was OOC, just The Slap). Claiming that Sonic was being selfish didn't even make the slightest bit of sense (which Sonic called her out on, but that didn't make the fact she did it any more believable), especially considering he was acting the way she'd always acted and the way she'd always want him to act, putting his country's needs above his own. Seriously, where did this idea even come from?

 

Ugh...Again?

 

1) She's somewhere between ages 15-17.  I don't know how many teenagers you know who could take a rejection like that and not blow it out of proportion, especially in a state of instability that she was clearly in.

2) Sonic just died and came back to life.  Based on past events such as her father being nearly killed when attempting to retrieve the Sword of Acorns, and her Mother Being in the Coma, and even having Rotor empty the fuel in the Sea Fox so Tails won't get hurt playing in it, Sally is way overprotective to those she fears to lose.  It wouldn't be the first time she overacted to a situation.  

3) Settling down and having a family, specifically since Elias at the time gave up trying to be king, would be in the best interest for The Kingdom of Acorn.  With the King constantly being either away on business or sick, having someone able to take over at hand would benefit the masses.  On top of that, Sonic is a hero that many look up to, so he is an ideal choice for that role, considering Sally would be doing most of the ruling anyways leaving Sonic mostly as a figure head.  While yes Sonic's skills are best suited elsewhere, Sally wasn't only thinking of herself during the event.

4) On the same note, Sonic wasn't only thinking of everyone else.  On many occasion Sonic has ran away from a romantic or relationship building situation.  He's flat out told the reader he's not ready yet before.  It wouldn't be out of character for Sally to see him using an excuse to avoid doing something he doesn't want to do. 

5) Right before Sonic "died" their marriage and stuff was all set into motion.  It was expected until it was wretched away when Sonic sacrificed himself to save the day.  Would it not be reasonable for Sally to have wished it  to continue where it left off?  To suddenly have her desires to be stolen away again, is she only supposed to take that smiling?  No.  Sally's a rebel, she fights for her dreams.  She didn't want to give up without a fight.  That is completely in her character.

 

Honestly we all look at Sally as someone who is Self-Sacrificing, always planning ahead, and near perfect that we forget that is only her outer shell.  She's allowed to be selfish, immature, and make the wrong decision and still be in character.  

[E122Psi]

As said it wasn't extremely out of character, but I do think it's a plot point that really shouldn't have been used, it's not just 'Sally's a meanie' that gives it infamy, it's considered the height of the comics' pretentious teen drama. I don't think Jon Gray's rather demonic artwork really helped Sally looked sympathetic either.

 

 

Honestly we all look at Sally as someone who is Self-Sacrificing, always planning ahead, and near perfect that we forget that is only her outer shell.  She's allowed to be selfish, immature, and make the wrong decision and still be in character.  

 

I don't mind that at all, I think Sally needs defining flawed moments, but the problem is when it happens, it's so poor executed. It doesn't help pinpoint her character or make her any more vibrant. If anything most cases just link her to the comic's history of angst and pretentious melodrama. Satam's weren't brilliant either but they at least kept it to a simplified 'Break the Haughty' moment like Sonic and Antoine's.

 

I think it's also the problem that a lot of the times Sally is flawed, she doesn't face repercussions for it. Along with the stated problem that Sally's meticulousness rarely got shown in flawed light in the show, the comics tend to try overlook her behaviour. Her friends rarely have the heart to call her out whenever she acts up, and the universe skews things so the circumstances rarely blow up in her face. No one said a word about 'the slap', and when she blamed Sonic for crippling her father, it almost seemed like the universe took elaborate lengths to separate the two for over 20 issues just so she wouldn't have to apologize for it. Even times they do lampshade she's done something wrong they play it too over the top poignant and make it seem unfair on her (eg. getting villains or strawmen such as Hamlin to call her out). Otherwise only she would be humble enough to accept her wrongness and blame herself. 

 

I think this is partly what makes her flawed moments in the comics insufferable for many (no one likes a Karma Houdini) and also kinda punctuates the theory that Sally isn't a naturally flawed character.

[RedAuthar]

As said it wasn't extremely out of character, but I do think it's a plot point that really shouldn't have been used, it's not just 'Sally's a meanie' that gives it infamy, it's considered the height of the comics' pretentious teen drama. I don't think Jon Gray's rather demonic artwork really helped Sally looked sympathetic either.

 

I liked Jon's art.

 

 

As said it wasn't extremely out of character, but I do think it's a plot point that really shouldn't have been used, it's not just 'Sally's a meanie' that gives it infamy, it's considered the height of the comics' pretentious teen drama. I don't think Jon Gray's rather demonic artwork really helped Sally looked sympathetic either.

 

 

Honestly we all look at Sally as someone who is Self-Sacrificing, always planning ahead, and near perfect that we forget that is only her outer shell.  She's allowed to be selfish, immature, and make the wrong decision and still be in character.  

 

I don't mind that at all, I think Sally needs defining flawed moments, but the problem is when it happens, it's so poor executed. It doesn't help pinpoint her character or make her any more vibrant. If anything most cases just link her to the comic's history of angst and pretentious melodrama. Satam's weren't brilliant either but they at least kept it to a simplified 'Break the Haughty' moment like Sonic and Antoine's.

 

I think it's also the problem that a lot of the times Sally is flawed, she doesn't face repercussions for it. Along with the stated problem that Sally's meticulousness rarely got shown in flawed light in the show, the comics tend to try overlook her behaviour. Her friends rarely have the heart to call her out whenever she acts up, and the universe skews things so the circumstances rarely blow up in her face. No one said a word about 'the slap', and when she blamed Sonic for crippling her father, it almost seemed like the universe took elaborate lengths to separate the two for over 20 issues just so she wouldn't have to apologize for it. Even times they do lampshade she's done something wrong they play it too over the top poignant and make it seem unfair on her (eg. getting villains or strawmen such as Hamlin to call her out). Otherwise only she would be humble enough to accept her wrongness and blame herself. 

 

I think this is partly what makes her flawed moments in the comics insufferable for many (no one likes a Karma Houdini) and also kinda punctuates the theory that Sally isn't a naturally flawed character.

That is true.  Sally gets away with a lot more stuff than many of the others.  

[E122Psi]

It's kinda the reason I don't think that 'Fiona gutpunch' moment is all that awesome. The whole premise of her relationship with Khan was her soothing his temper and aggression. Then we get a moment when Sally loses it  herself and risks a potential agreement...and it's treated as completely badass and cool in the narrative. This could have been an ideal moment to show Sal the other side of the boat and how it's not always easy keeping a level head in the face of adversaries, but it's all lost in favor of once again over attempting to make her look strong and 'empowering'.

 

While her chemistry with Sonic is too one sided, she at least usually gets it when she's as reckless as he is, but for Khan it was an outright double standard.

[E122Psi]

If you are talking the comics then what about #225; she got killed for rushing in headlong into an unknown situation. And then you could also say that #229 was the ultimate "smackdown" for her character; she let Robotnik live and ignored him as a threat and then didn't realize what he was up to until it was too late. She paid, (or could be still paying), for it by being turned into a robot, weaponized and used against her friends for over 2 1/2 years to the glee of the all the Sally haters out there. I can't name another character that has been more abused for her mistakes.

It's just that most attempts to show Sally are flawed (especially under Ian's pen) are designed more to make her The Woobie and how horribly she is treated. Also as said they don't really develop her personality outside the ability to overlook some important details. It doesn't really expand her traits, any character can make an oversight. It's not akin to Sonic's oversights, which originate specifically from traits such as being cocky and a lack of tact. They could make her completely incompetent, but if it isn't originated from some sort of consistent personality flaw, she's just an Everyman with a load of Compressed Vices.

 

It's punctuated by the fact that, unlike her with Sonic or Khan, Sally doesn't really have anyone as a straight man who points out these aspects (and if there is they're usually designed to be unsympathetic). Yeah she made an oversight with Eggman or not thinking Snively would try anything, but no one else in the whole team said a thing about it either, so they're no better.

 

While Sonic's flawed episodes in Satam were done in a tad too much excess, I think they got the formula and execution right for the large part. Character acts flawed (with someone else warning them about it), do something that causes trouble and pretty much end up the Butt Monkey until it is fixed and they learn from their mistake. He is granted enough pathos to not look unsympathetic, but looks flawed enough that it doesn't overwhelm the fact he's done something wrong and has to learn. Why is it so hard to do it for Sally. or any other Freedom Fighter for that matter?

[furrykef]

As for The Slap, all I can say is this: any time the audience goes "yeah right" or "what the hell was that crap?", the writing has failed. There's no amount of justification after the fact that will undo it. So I maintain that, regardless of any logic that may apply, The Slap was bad writing.

[E122Psi]

Usually for each character there's an incarnation of them that, while still maybe not perfect, has the basic setup and characteristics working that shows their potential to be a good character. Tails was great in the OVA, while I liked Amy in early Sonic X (before her Flanderization). Sally was mostly there in Satam Season One (there were still mentioned limitations and inconsistencies, but her characterization seemed about right on average), though there are shades of other points I think add to her character (eg. her more stroppy disposition in the early comics or more developed Straight Man moments in some Season Two episodes, which helped show the two greater extremes of her personality).

 

Generally when there is a character with many inconsistent depictions, my favored choice is the one that tries most to be a compromise of all or most of them, since not only is it the best of both worlds, but it means they have a more palpable number of facets and depths to their personality (eg. Chuck Jones and Bob Clampett made two very different versions of Daffy Duck that ran on somewhat strict formulas, though Robert Mckimson gets my vote just for trying to merge them both together to make a very versatile character).

[furrykef]

The thing with the early Daffy Duck was he was a generic screwball character. The proto-Bugs Bunny and Screwy Squirrel were just like him, as were a few other characters. The later Daffy Duck had a personality that's unique to him.

[E122Psi]

I think it's more the fact that they had started developing Daffy so he was more lucid and ambitious and capable of creating more plots...and then kept on going and going and going until he was near equally limited character (screwy Daffy just runs around heckling people, while pompous Daffy spends every short challenging foes he is completely outmatched by). There's millions of 'screwball' archetypes, but there's just as many 'loser antagonist' ones in Looney Tunes.

 

I liked Mckimson's version since he kept to that mid point where he could take on winner and loser roles and had his ego and delusions of grandeur without losing his cheerful, prankster side. Stuff like 'Ducking The Devil' and 'Dime To Retire' are innovative scenarios neither extreme tried to take on.

 

That's my point with such erratic characterizations. Why have one when you can have both?

 

This is why I like the idea for Sally, the early comics' control freak Sally or the later ones' super lucid and virtuous Sally feel one note on their own and don't really hit the mark in terms of sympathetic personality. Combined correctly however you could get a rounded Ms Vice Girl with an adorable inferiority superiority complex (much as Season One almost achieved).

 

Concerning Sylvester, I admit he was the one villain I always thought was more disproportionately treated than the others, though less often by Tweety (this is ironic since most of his shorts were made by Friz Freleng, who was wary about Elmer Fudd being so pathetic he made Bugs look like a bully).

[RedAuthar]

As for The Slap, all I can say is this: any time the audience goes "yeah right" or "what the hell was that crap?", the writing has failed. There's no amount of justification after the fact that will undo it. So I maintain that, regardless of any logic that may apply, The Slap was bad writing.

Agreed.  The writing, heck the idea and implementation was bad.  

 

However I can see where the idea originated and that was not.  They just should have let it stay an idea and not use it, or use it under different circumstances.

[E122Psi]

 

As for The Slap, all I can say is this: any time the audience goes "yeah right" or "what the hell was that crap?", the writing has failed. There's no amount of justification after the fact that will undo it. So I maintain that, regardless of any logic that may apply, The Slap was bad writing.

Agreed.  The writing, heck the idea and implementation was bad.  

 

However I can see where the idea originated and that was not.  They just should have let it stay an idea and not use it, or use it under different circumstances.

 

I do like the idea of Sonic and Sally having a serious disagreement that shows that there are some huge incompatibilities with their approaches and life choices. It was just all done very badly, and in the form of pretentious romantic angst, what's more the execution kinda made Sally look like a vicious bitch, especially with a very small Sonic just gazing at her with tearful puppy eyes. Ultimately it didn't really culminate to anything either. They just kept Sally in the background for a while until a plot fix could make her a Freedom Fighter, made a light reference to how super duper sorry she was and it was forgotten. Ian even made a future arc showing Sonic caving into Sally's decision that caused them all this heartbreak, which makes the tiffle completely pointless.

[E122Psi]

I kinda looked over Season Two again. To emphasize my point, there are pretty much six episodes IN A ROW where Sally has to fix the mistakes Sonic's stupidity or abrasiveness causes:

 

* Game Guy: Sonic falls for Ari's trap despite Sally's warnings. Sally takes part in a rescue mission. Sonic actually has the nerve to say he was right because Ari turned sides after and gets a karmic electric shock for it.

 

* Sonic Conversation: Sonic deroboticizes Chuck against Sally's warnings. She helps him out of the swamp so he can save Tails and Antoine, who were captured by Chuck because of his hastiness. Sally is left getting him out of his BSOD from guilt afterwards.

 

* No Brainer: Sonic is reckless-ya-di-ya- Sally warns him -blah,blah,blah, we know the formula now. Sonic gets brainwashed and Sally and Chuck break him out of it and reverse all the damage he caused by revealing Knothole to Snively.

 

* Blast To The Past: Sally warns Sonic to concentrate, leading to his '32,chillidog' chant that pretty much ruins the entire mission and almost gets them killed.

 

* Fed Up With Antoine: Sonic spearheads leaving Antoine with the bikers. Had Sally not done research, Sonic's decision would have got Antoine killed and eaten.

 

* Dulcy: Pretty sure there around THREE mini-moments Sonic screws things up and needs to be saved by her or Dulcy, almost a forth since she has to pretty much drag Sonic away from gloating at Robotnik.

 

Comparing this to the ONE instance Sally was 'wrong' in Drood Henge (which was far more subtle and unlike all of Sonic's didn't involve her carrying the Idiot Ball and nearly killing herself or someone else), I find it hard to buy the theory that Hurst intended them to be equals but simply didn't find as many opportunities for Sally's shortcomings. He may have tried to be shrewd about dumbing down Sonic (eg. making Ant his constant Straw Loser and giving Sally a couple of brief BSODs) but I think it was pretty clear who was intended to be the moral and intellectual superior of the two.

[E122Psi]

Sorry to TRIPLE post but I was wondering, did Hurst or any other Satam staff have anything to say concerning fan criticism of Sally (which I'm pretty sure was rampant long before his passing) or any other Freedom Fighter for that matter (concerning statements about the cast, I know Sally and Dulcy were Hurst's favorites and Len Janson had a personal dislike for Rotor but that's it).

 

There seems less point asking about the Archie staff since Ian talks regularly with fans, and seems to be pretty much spelling out 'Sally is NOT a Mary Sue' as clear and blatant as possible in half his stories' narrative.

[RedAuthar]

I kinda looked over Season Two again. To emphasize my point, there are pretty much six episodes IN A ROW where Sally has to fix the mistakes Sonic's stupidity or abrasiveness causes:

 

* Game Guy: Sonic falls for Ari's trap despite Sally's warnings. Sally takes part in a rescue mission. Sonic actually has the nerve to say he was right because Ari turned sides after and gets a karmic electric shock for it.

 

* Sonic Conversation: Sonic deroboticizes Chuck against Sally's warnings. She helps him out of the swamp so he can save Tails and Antoine, who were captured by Chuck because of his hastiness. Sally is left getting him out of his BSOD from guilt afterwards.

 

* No Brainer: Sonic is reckless-ya-di-ya- Sally warns him -blah,blah,blah, we know the formula now. Sonic gets brainwashed and Sally and Chuck break him out of it and reverse all the damage he caused by revealing Knothole to Snively.

 

* Blast To The Past: Sally warns Sonic to concentrate, leading to his '32,chillidog' chant that pretty much ruins the entire mission and almost gets them killed.

 

* Fed Up With Antoine: Sonic spearheads leaving Antoine with the bikers. Had Sally not done research, Sonic's decision would have got Antoine killed and eaten.

 

* Dulcy: Pretty sure there around THREE mini-moments Sonic screws things up and needs to be saved by her or Dulcy, almost a forth since she has to pretty much drag Sonic away from gloating at Robotnik.

 

Comparing this to the ONE instance Sally was 'wrong' in Drood Henge (which was far more subtle and unlike all of Sonic's didn't involve her carrying the Idiot Ball and nearly killing herself or someone else), I find it hard to buy the theory that Hurst intended them to be equals but simply didn't find as many opportunities for Sally's shortcomings. He may have tried to be shrewd about dumbing down Sonic (eg. making Ant his constant Straw Loser and giving Sally a couple of brief BSODs) but I think it was pretty clear who was intended to be the moral and intellectual superior of the two.

Well in all fairness we all know Sally is the smarter one.  That was picked up right away. 

 

Game Guy: Sonic Saved himself while Sally pretty much sat uselessly outside AND passed up the opportunity to defeat a FROZEN ROBOTNIK which would have saved Sonic anyways. Not her brightest moments.

 

No Brainer: Except they HAD to have Sonic back.  They couldn't function without him.  Sally even admits to him being the leader here.  

 

Aaaaaaaand I haven't watched the other three recent enough to analyze them.  

 

The thing is Sally is Sonic's superior in Intellect, however that doesn't make her superior.  Sonic saves her in many episodes, and it was Sally who trusted Grif nearly exactly how Sonic trusted Ari that nearly led to Knothole's destruction.  Sally doesn't usually make mental mistakes, but Sonic is usually the one who has to physically solve any problems she comes across. 

[E122Psi]

The thing is I feel most of the time personality matters over powers, because that's what makes the character more. That theory only gives the idea that if Sally had Sonic's powers, she'd practically be a more efficient version of him. While we had an episode in Season One that shown Sonic could do things without powers, it started to become less believable Season Two (in fact he arguably endangered the team more often than Ant).

 

I say this also primarily because of how often people say they are great foils for each other. I like to think it is more than just 'Sally babysits Sonic and he's her dumb muscle'. I'd rather they actually gave her powers to even it out rather than just going for the old cliche of making her a wiser, purer and all around better person personality wise. Intelligence can be divided into so many fractions and divisions, I think it's really oversimplifying to say Sally is sound in most or all of them and that she never makes significant errors.

 

Sally still saved Ari to set Sonic's rescue in motion (though Sonic still had the nerve to say he was right all along). While for No Brainer, of course he is useful since as stated, he is the dumb muscle that can work if directed by someone with half a brain. For Warp Sonic, it was a mistake, but Sonic's jerkishness only exacerbated it and help set it in motion. Unlike Sally in Game Guy, he was right for all the wrong reasons. A Straight Man or good foil he is not. And as said that was a Season One episode, where Sally was actually allowed to make errors.

[RedAuthar]

And what about the two nameless/faceless Mobians that get roboticized near the start of Blast to the Past? Sally blames herself for not thinking of all the possible answers and it is Sonic who points out she just can't do that.

Again Sally's mistakes are more implied and between, since the show revolves around Sonic, but they are still there. Heck Sonic and Sally (the episode) is caused by Sally getting caught which nearly destroys the Freedom Fighters. And it's Sonic and Tails who figures it out.

Agreed Season Two has less mistakes by Sally.

[E122Psi]

I guess it's largely Sally's fallible moments aren't as tightly connected to her personality as Sonic's and seem less a matter she has to improve or change like he does. Cases such as 'Sonic and Sally' was just down to bad luck or being legitimately outsmarted. Other like Blast to the Past or several of her instances in Archie were more basic oversights or even her taking on Sonic's recklessness, which seems more like a Compressed Vice given how meticulous she is. Sonic's numerous flawed moments were repeatedly down to his trademark cockiness or becoming reckless, which seemed more a case he has to compromise or learn to control parts of his normal personality, so it seemed a lot more like he was the one who had to learn. There were implications Sally's meticulousness caused issues, but we never saw it in full display of how much of a hindrance it could be to her or her trying to overcome it.

 

Also as said, because of this Sonic couldn't really foil Sally back as well as she so accurately played Only Sane Man to his flaws. Sally could support Sonic just by being herself and utilizing her own defining positive aspects. Sonic either had to randomly gain the same meticulous cautious approach as her, or just came off as jackass making things worse (as said Warp Sonic). Otherwise the best he could do is give her a pat on the back.

 

Hell most of the times Sally makes a mistake in Archie, he and everyone else are oblivious to it. No one warned her about leaving Snively in 200, or not watching out for NICOLE in the Iron Dominion arc. Yeah Sally is tactician so it is partially more her responsibility, but Sonic and everyone else were just as dumb about it so it's not really an individual flawed moment like Sonic's, which he could have specifically avoided if he followed Sally's thinking rather than his own.

 

The fact Archie depicted Sonic finally giving in to Sally's plans of becoming king (without any suggestion of her compromising her own lifestyle) only further implies it is Sonic that needs to change while Sally is fine going the way she is, so long as she doesn't falter from her normal approach.

[RedAuthar]

 

The fact Archie depicted Sonic finally giving in to Sally's plans of becoming king (without any suggestion of her compromising her own lifestyle) only further implies it is Sonic that needs to change while Sally is fine going the way she is, so long as she doesn't falter from her normal approach.

Though that storyline was many times over considered Non-Canon and only "one of many possible outcomes".  It's a bit of an unfair example (partially because it is the only one we've been given thus far).

 

 

Cases such as 'Sonic and Sally' was just down to bad luck or being legitimately outsmarted.

Sort of like in "Fed up with Antoine" where Sonic just didn't know anything and made a bad call.  

 

You also have to remember the cartoon and the comics are "Sonic the Hedgehog".  He gets a lot more panel/screen time than any other character so his flaws are more numerous as he just has more time to make them. 

[E122Psi]

 

You also have to remember the cartoon and the comics are "Sonic the Hedgehog".  He gets a lot more panel/screen time than any other character so his flaws are more numerous as he just has more time to make them. 

 

I think the reason people pinpoint Sally for this problem however is because by Season Two and later points of the comics, she's practically a co lead, and appears on screen almost as much as Sonic does. The other Freedom Fighters had similar limitations, but were treated as periphery characters (par maybe Antoine who similarly has criticism with odd fans). It can be sort of understandable why people got irritated by Sally being boosted to bigger and bigger roles (usually at the expense of other characters) but getting little of the humanization that usually comes from it. She was getting more of the good, but actually less of the bad compared to her smaller earlier roles, which I suppose could tie into her looking like she had been glorified, intentional or not. Hence why we get endless complaints along the lines of 'Oh, it's more about Sally than Sonic, and how super awesome she is'.

 

In the more likely case, I suppose it was maybe Hurst being too formulaic, taking somewhat limited foils for Sonic and then thinking that alone has star material, hence we get Sally in a main role every episode and Antoine getting his own shorts but without any modifications to their personality to accommodate it (this is likely also the reason Sally's comic mini series is rather dull, her character is not built to be lead material but to foil the main character, so it was mostly just her sanely and generically going through the mission or focusing on more abrasive side characters like Geoffrey).

 

As for Mobius Years Later, just because it was Non Canon doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be developed properly and within the character's personality. It still means the writers think it is within reasonable possibility for Sonic and Sally to end up that way.