81 replies to this topic

[Captain Sorzo]

I prefer to throw the bus under Amy.

 

This is quickly followed by throwing land mines under the bus.

[ILOVEVHS]

(VHS still eats his crumpets, laughing at the the thought that they're fighting over shippings when it is simply futile)

[Captain Sorzo]

There's nothing futile about cathartic imagery.

[TheRedStranger]

 *Looks at the twitching, charred mess...*

 

 We can rebuild her. *Pull out a pen and notebook* We have the technology.

 

 Seriously, I have faith the character could work...

 

In EoT I write and introduce Amy later in Season one. I play her off like a female hammer-wielding juggernuat in a small lady-like package, to compliment EoT Sonic as a male lighting-bruiser. Like Sally, I make her similar to Sonic in spunk and a thrist for adventure. But very maternal and soft-spoken when the time's right. She's more introspective, and her crush for Sonic is actually heavily downplayed and it's something she buries deep down. Why? Because she is coy to romance and not sure how to approach darting due to being such a freespirit (kinda like another certain hedgehog). She slaps him in the back of the head a couple of times for saying the wrong things, being impusive, and hotheaded. Yet she can be the same way with people that urk her, and it's easy manipulate her compassion for people are certain personal principles to get under her skin. And she also foils Sally the same way as Sonic, she's snippy with her (on differing issues from Sonic however) but listens to her overall. Where Sally is a realist, Amy is flaming idealist. She has been sheltered from the war for years inheriting power where Sally has earned skill through prowess and wit, yet her strong morals can surprise Sally, as she always tries to force a third option into a moral dillema.

 

 Her backstory will be quite intresting as well, and kind of sad.

[TheRedStranger]

I'd rather just throw Hayao Nakayama and the rest of Sega of Japan's board from the of directors from the late '90s under the bus. After all they are the ones really to blame for how f-ed up the fan base is.

 

Oh yay! Now we conspiring to murder non-fictional demons in suits people. 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6XJjMwMFF5g

 

*Puts his Darth Sidious robes on*

 

Good...good. Soon SEGA will belong to the darkside of the fandom. Lord Bytor, kill them immediatly.

[TheRedStranger]

 

 

I'd rather just throw Hayao Nakayama and the rest of Sega of Japan's board from the of directors from the late '90s under the bus. After all they are the ones really to blame for how f-ed up the fan base is.

 

Oh yay! Now we conspiring to murder non-fictional demons in suits people. 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6XJjMwMFF5g

 

*Puts his Darth Sidious robes on*

 

Good...good. Soon SEGA will belong to the darkside of the fandom. Lord Bytor, kill them immediatly.

 

 

I thought we were talking about cathartic imagery....

 

Also, that's Prince By-Tor: Knight of Darkness, Centurion of Evil, Devil's Prince! Or at least according to Neil Peart.

 

 

 "Fine..."*grumbles and pulls down hood as he walks off set, force chucking George Lucas for making the prequals*

 

"Darth Bytor would have fit the scene better..."

 

. *Tosses Lucas out of Air lock*

 

"Jar-jar is your Amy, Lucas! You made good target  practice for the Grand Plan."

 

*stops in mid-step*

 

You've met the God of Percussion himself?   

[TheRedStranger]

I wish! I did get to see them all in concert though. No, I was just quoting the lyrics from the song; it's the last two lines of the first verse.

 

I can do a good Emperor; he was a badass among the Sith!

 

 I bet that was awesome! Pert, Manjini, and Portanoy are my favorite drummers. Madien's Bruce Dickenson and James Labrie get my tie-vote for best vocalist though. However I love many of Rush's lyrics, they're rather deep.

 

Weird AL is coming over to EKU tommorow, I wish I could go. He's another favorite of mine.

 

 Yes! Yes! Let the hate flow through you. He was the best. Too bad he wasn't properly glorified in Episode I-II-III. He just seems really aribitrary in his plans. Like he made them up as he went along and was incredibly lucky (or the jedi were just that stupid).

[TheRedStranger]

http://www.youtube.c...CwB9yaDNc#t=104

 

This scene is a great metaphore for what I am doing with SEGAsonic in general.

[TheRedStranger]

 Sally is the best female character of all Sonicdom. She foils him perfectly, in both drama, romance, and comedy. She is also a way better role model for young girls than Amy. I think Amy is popular because of adolescent projection. A lot of young girls relate with Amy because they are doating for a heroic male figure in their lives that will somehow magically perfect their lives...such idolatry is saddening as it dangerous. Someone needs to write it where Amy does get the chance to date Sonic but Sonic turns out to not at all what she tought. Deconstruct their stalker-idol relationship and reconstruct it as a mutal and edifying friendship, then if you are begging for Sonamy work slowly from there. Make it a real relationship where people have to comprimise and allow friction from their natural differences. In the end they support each other and edify each other (like any good relationship does). I argue this would make a good moral for a story, but still Sally just works so well with Sonic that it's enjoyable to see them play off each other.

[E122Psi]

As much as I like Sally (especially in concept), I can see her development flaws very clearly, and so can many SEGA fans (who aren't all SonAmy nuts or games purists). A key problem is that Sally has a brilliant concept but it's all skewed as a result of prominent issues in saturday morning cartoons at the time due to watchdogs and attempts to keep things 'PC'.

 

Sally has a great character concept, being a meticulous, hyper cautious foil to Sonic's spontaneous, daredevil attitude. On paper the chemistry between the two could have really expanded on both her's and Sonic's character and made them wonderfully rounded characters.

 

The key flaw however is that it's all slanted. A perfect way of setting this all up is to have the two as flawed equals, having different moments either character's completely different approach falters according to circumstance and the other has a solution. Alternatively both could realize they need to compromise their ethics or even take a third option (likely where other characters could get opportunities to shine).

 

This however doesn't happen, well not technically. It happens A LOT for Sonic, but NEVER for Sally. Almost half of season two is devoted to Sonic's spontaneous approach causing him to be reckless and Sally's tactical 'play it safe' strategy bailing him out, while Sally's meticulous habits aren't shown in a flawed light even ONCE. This has not changed in the comics either, that have spanned for almost 20 years now, stubbornly sticking to the same 'dumb, abrasive male vs smart rational female' shtick that's used in nearly every sitcom since the 50s.

 

This has negative affect on both characters. For Sally, she has no defining flawed moment. Even the odd attempts they do try to give her a token flawed moment it's via a Compressed Vice or her stooping to Sonic's level and taking a risk (eg. Sonic and the Secret Scrolls, almost all of Ian's attempts to 'fix' her) which destroys the point since that still negatively represents traits related more to Sonic than her and isn't something he can properly foil back. The nearest to her getting a legitimate flawed moment concerning her defining aspects is ironically that one moment fans would rather forget. For Sonic, he ends up having all his defining traits diluted into negative aspects to enable Sally as his Straight Man. His whole 'like the wind' personality is simplified into making him reckless and arrogant, and as such needing to be 'corrected' and suppressed by another character who knows better. It's taken to the point that it's considered positive development that he gets emasculated into being Sally's king in the future arc, something that would be considered a complete betrayal of character for any other interpretation of him. There is no compromise in their relationship. Sonic just gave up in everything that represents him because Sally's way is ''better".

 

I feel this is why some find Sal to be rather insufferable and 'Mary Sue-ish', she is designed to be a moral and intellectual superior to the main star, one who is usually far more competent and suave in other medias (games Sonic isn't immune to being reckless, as shown in the new Lost World, but it's moderated with moments of clarity and times his personality does triumph), and even worse she does so by being his complete opposite and rendering his defining aspects incompetent. There's a difference between a strong female equal and a blatant use of 'Positive Discrimination' who is designed to be superior to the male cast and even derail their personalities in their favor. It's a real shame since if not for this one annoying flaw I feel it could have made all the difference in avoiding these slings and arrows and making her a well rounded Ms Vice Girl (though stuff like her blatant spotlight hogging and over the top humanoid design work in later Arche still come into question).

[furrykef]

I dunno. I think the dynamic between Sonic and Sally is meant to be that Sally is the brains and Sonic is the brawn (just in the form of speed rather than sheer strength). So it's only natural that Sally tends to come out on top in intellectual matters, but Sonic still gets shit done. It's clear that the Freedom Fighters would be sunk if it weren't for either one of them, and in that respect I think they are well balanced.

[E122Psi]

 

Welcome again E22Psi! It's nice to have you here!

 

Anyway, while I do agree with you overall that her cautiousness winning out is overplayed, there are times where Sonic's haphazard way wins out; it's just not as quoted by fans. Just look at the first part of Blast to the Past where he jumps off the floating island, which saves their lives, and then if you noticed in part 2 Sally makes the same judgement more or less by having Sonic Launch them up to the Destroyer; it ends up that Sonic saves them again. Also, in Cry of the Wolf it's Sonic who finally destroys the test pod after a couple of failures on Sally's part. Another one is in Sonic and the Secret Scrolls where Sonic chastises Sally and company for flying in the Freedom Stormer and ends up saving their lives when it almost crashes off the cliff. In Drood Henge both Sonic and Tails constantly prove Sally's cautiousness wrong, In Warp Sonic Sonic made up for Sally's short-sightedness that almost cost their ability to make power rings and A big one is in Super Sonic where she doesn't want to risk getting Lazaar's computer, but again if it wasn't for Sonic's "devil may care" attitude Robotnik would have run completely a muck with the computer and the series would've ended there.

I could keep on going with more instances where Sonic's "fly by the seat of your pants way" defeats Sally's cautious way or flat-out saves them from her mistakes. It's just those instances where he is wrong gets more attention or are more memorable scenes; it is also Sally haters fruit picking instances. Heck, if I only focused on certain places in series I could make a case for Antoine being a courageous hero.

 

 

Thanx very much.

 

The thing is that most of Sonic's failed moments are all out displays of his flawed personality. Game Guy and Sonic Conversation are specific moments he acts before he thinks and directly ignores Sally's strategy to take things cautiously. At the end he suffers repercussions that almost get him killed and shows humility (or in Game Guy's case, ignores it until Sally gets a small karmic last laugh).

 

I'm not saying Sally's tactical approach never failed, but it was more just a case of a solid enough plan that still got legitimately outsmarted (or Antoine ruining it), it was not a showcase of a fatal flaw like Sonic's reckless arrogant pratfalls. Drood Henge shows her taking a risk has advantages, but not really in the sense her own direction makes a big mistake, and even if it did we'll never know, because Sally proved a lot more reasonable than Sonic and caved in when he reasoned with her (compared to the multiple instances Sonic ignores Sal until he almost gets the entire team killed). The others were them just going through with a plan (that Sonic agreed with anyway) and then taking another when it failed, not Sally doing something stupid that Sonic plays the Straight Man towards. he was always the character placed in the 'character screws up and learn's the episode's moral' formula (granted this wasn't just against Sally, none of the other Freedom Fighters really had their flaws challenged and forced to overcome them, par maybe Antoine in Hooked On Sonics). Meanwhile Sally was the one who always had to babysit Sonic and make sure he didn't do anything dumb.

 

I don't really feel Warp Sonic and Sonic and the Secret Scrolls are the same because that's more Sally becoming randomly reckless like Sonic than stubbornly keeping to her meticulous ethics, which if anything only furthered the 'taking risks is bad' pattern. In the end that's still a flaw that represents Sonic more than Sally so she is still far less flawed than he is. They shown other flaws like her over competitiveness with Sonic a bit, but I don't think they are as well defined as when she foils him. not to mention don't really display Sonic's clarity as well since not only do they randomly just convert his personality to being cautious, but he's in asshole mode in both them (We're not even implied if Sally actually learned anything from Warp Sonic anyway, especially since Sonic provoked it by acting like a possessive tool throughout the whole thing).

 

Being meticulous isn't always a positive trait. It can stem from equally severe personality defects like being controlling, neurotic or outright obsessive compulsive. (Sally had shades of these flaws, but it never really led to fatal consequences like Sonic's constantly did). Look at characters like Twilight Sparkle from Friendship is Magic or Rabbit from Winnie The Pooh, meticulous cautious characters who have straight man moments, but just as often cause HUGE problems as a result of their 'by the book' attitude and are made to accept their shortcomings.

 

I dunno. I think the dynamic between Sonic and Sally is meant to be that Sally is the brains and Sonic is the brawn (just in the form of speed rather than sheer strength). So it's only natural that Sally tends to come out on top in intellectual matters, but Sonic still gets shit done. It's clear that the Freedom Fighters would be sunk if it weren't for either one of them, and in that respect I think they are well balanced.

I don't really like the idea of Sonic just being dumb muscle, I think that degrades his personality. I admit having brains and brawn (albeit specified) could make him a bit overpowered, though if that was the case they could have just made others such as Bunnie more on his level. Hell give Sal more physical abilities and then limit her intelligence a bit more. Heroes have specified abilities after all.

 

Half the problem with Season Two was oversimplifying Sonic and Sally into the whole brains and brawn department. Sally wasn't just a good hacker and strategistic, she stole Rotor's mechanic role and became more wisdomic as well. Meanwhile Sonic became the sole muscle of the team, with others like Bunnie and Dulcy rarely getting on the action. That seems oversimplistic, you see people who are smart in different areas or superheroes whose powers are good in only specific circumstances.

[TheRedStranger]

Edit: Is this better Kef?

 

 A seasoned writer subtly balances his characters. Sonic shouldn't be a strong idiot. And Sally shouldn't be omniscient but a damsel. For one intelligence and physicallity are ineffectivly too broad for terms to define three-dimensional and credible characters - only a novice writes like that. Ask yourselves these questions. What type of intellgence does Sally excel therein? What type of brawn does Sonic have? There are multiple forms of intellgence. And, multiple forms of strength. For example when I wrote out the character rosters for EoT I realized Knuckles and Bunnie are both heavy-hitters, very powerful characters. Yet despite their broad archtypes they are drastically different from one another. Here is an example from those sheets: 

 

Bunnie and Knuckles are both power houses but one is through a form of mystical power, the master emralds,  and the other is through cybertechnology, thus they have unique secondary and passive abilities. Bunnie is a living multi-tool. She's her own utility belt. She also is more level headed though vulrable to electricity and magic, unlike Knuckles. Knuckles has techniques similar to tuteminus and kinitite from Star Wars, where he can blast you with raw concussive waves or use that same concussive power to block energy based weapons via his punches. However bullets can hurt him, bad. Bunnie can soak up bullets especially with her new collapsable arm shield upgrade. Their martial art skills are different as well. Poor Bunnie, like Beethoven gone deaf, used to be an uber amazing gymnist, acrobat, an excellent kicker-boxer pre-cybernetics for a good five years as Freedom Fighter (Sonic was just 10 when she was 13 and going on solo missions), now she is still very much a kicker but nowhere as nimble (she likes stomps, hard and low kicks, throws, joint-breaks, crushing locks, and vice like holds). She could jump atop a Swatbot and pop it's head open like a grape between her metal legs. Also Knuckles is a fish-out of water when it comes to the modern world, but when it comes to the aracane world and dungeon-crawling he is your man. Bunnie knows the most about the modern pre-coupe world and post-coupe areas besides Robotropolis and Knothole, like for example, Overlander territory. Knuckles is solid on his feet and likes to stay in close (elbows, fists, headbutts, teeth, knees), but he can move, unlike Bunny who merely soaks up damage and is even more sure-footed but nowhere as nimble. Bunnie can use her jet-feet to fly and is impervious to pain and enviromental haszards in her metal limbs. Yet that changes when exposed to EMP weapons and mechanical issues, which need repair and not mend themselves.  Knukles is more vulrable to joint attacks and joint locks. Though Bunny lacks all but any rudimentary sense in her hand and legs, she has the best hearing on the team.

 

Both have the same archetype, yet are vastly different characters and that;s not fully including their personalities and mentalities.

 

 The moral of the story is this. When you write multiple characters you wish to foil don't just say this one is all X and none of Y and the other character is vice versa. That is why Sally is great in the first place, because though she is logical and scientifically inclined but also is an impulsive and hotheaded at times when her wants, ego-centered perceptions, and feelings cloud her judgment. She can't stand to be wrong. She takes great pride in her intellgence, and makes she slips inronically in the same egocentric territory Sonic stumbles into from time to time. He thinks he's all that one way, she thinks she's all that in another. They are passionate characters and they have both want to be in control of the situation ("I am right, you're wrong, as usual." *heads on out in dangerous territory on a hunch with Antoine, just to screw with Sonic *.)

 

  

[furrykef]

Please don't use black text. It's unreadable against the black background of my preferred forum theme unless I select the text. ^^;

[TheRedStranger]

Please don't use black text. It's unreadable against the black background of my preferred forum theme unless I select the text. ^^;

 

I'm sorry Kef. How and what way do you prefer it?

[TheRedStranger]

 

 

Thanx very much.

 

The thing is that most of Sonic's failed moments are all out displays of his flawed personality. Game Guy and Sonic Conversation are specific moments he acts before he thinks and directly ignores Sally's strategy to take things cautiously. At the end he suffers repercussions that almost get him killed and shows humility (or in Game Guy's case, ignores it until Sally gets a small karmic last laugh).

 

I'm not saying Sally's tactical approach never failed, but it was more just a case of a solid enough plan that still got legitimately outsmarted (or Antoine ruining it), it was not a showcase of a fatal flaw like Sonic's reckless arrogant pratfalls. Drood Henge shows her taking a risk has advantages, but not really in the sense her own direction makes a big mistake, and even if it did we'll never know, because Sally proved a lot more reasonable than Sonic and caved in when he reasoned with her (compared to the multiple instances Sonic ignores Sal until he almost gets the entire team killed). The others were them just going through with a plan (that Sonic agreed with anyway) and then taking another when it failed, not Sally doing something stupid that Sonic plays the Straight Man towards. he was always the character placed in the 'character screws up and learn's the episode's moral' formula (granted this wasn't just against Sally, none of the other Freedom Fighters really had their flaws challenged and forced to overcome them, par maybe Antoine in Hooked On Sonics). Meanwhile Sally was the one who always had to babysit Sonic and make sure he didn't do anything dumb.

 

I don't really feel Warp Sonic and Sonic and the Secret Scrolls are the same because that's more Sally becoming randomly reckless like Sonic than stubbornly keeping to her meticulous ethics, which if anything only furthered the 'taking risks is bad' pattern. In the end that's still a flaw that represents Sonic more than Sally so she is still far less flawed than he is. They shown other flaws like her over competitiveness with Sonic a bit, but I don't think they are as well defined as when she foils him. not to mention don't really display Sonic's clarity as well since not only do they randomly just convert his personality to being cautious, but he's in asshole mode in both them (We're not even implied if Sally actually learned anything from Warp Sonic anyway, especially since Sonic provoked it by acting like a possessive tool throughout the whole thing).

 

Being meticulous isn't always a positive trait. It can stem from equally severe personality defects like being controlling, neurotic or outright obsessive compulsive. (Sally had shades of these flaws, but it never really led to fatal consequences like Sonic's constantly did). Look at characters like Twilight Sparkle from Friendship is Magic or Rabbit from Winnie The Pooh, meticulous cautious characters who have straight man moments, but just as often cause HUGE problems as a result of their 'by the book' attitude and are made to accept their shortcomings.

 

Even though it was more apparent when he messed up, you have to admit though he saved the day a lot. Sonic couldn't win and be perfect all of the time or the show wouldn't have been as emotional as it was; that was part of Len Johanson's edict that the Freedom Fighters had to lose some. And also it was part of Sonic's makeup to be reckless and disobey, be a rebel and not listening to authority.

Again, in Super Sonic if he hadn't flat-out ignored Sally and went for Lazaar it would've been game over, and actually in Sonic Conversion they ended up freeing Uncle Chuck and increasing their intelligence gathering capabilities. What about Hooked on Sonics? He was being reckless fighting the shredder and won, plus got all of the accolades. In Sonic's Nightmare was another time where Sally's plan failed and Sonic had to come up with something to save the day.

Sally can make bone-headed moves as well: in Sonic Boom if you notice Sally just heads into the Dark Swamp without asking for directions from NICHOLE and only after Antoine asks about where they are going and like I also said earlier In Blast to the Past 2 she had Sonic shoot up in the air out of the sliding tree without a thought about how they'd land.

I agree with FurryKef, I think they worked together as a team the best; Doomsday Project was the best of instance of this. Although, yeah, she was a bit overdone in the second season, but she was also a great character.

 

 

A part of me thinks Sonic does have some advantage over Sally as a quick improviser, someone who can be brillant in an extemporanious way. Sonic has pulled some smart moves from under his sleeve in a jam "When the hedgehog brains a cookin'..." And that is not even delving into kinistetic apprehension, which is indeed takes a lot of brains.

[E122Psi]

I don't mean that Sonic shouldn't have flawed moments, it's just that whenever the two had a tiffle over spontaneous vs meticulous methods, Sonic was the only one that really got his flawed nature spotlighted. Sonic represents spontaneous and so screwed up mulitple times by being reckless, overconfident and not thinking things through. Sally represents meticulous but never really got the bad side of it spotlighted, just it wasn't a guaranteed win. As with those previous cases, Sally could only make genuine flawed errors by being reckless like Sonic which deviates from the opposite chemistry they tried to make. Almost all the examples of Sally making an oversight you mentioned are Sally being spontaneous and taking a stupid risk like Sonic does in his flawed moments, not making a meticulous plan that is short sighted. Similarly the one time Sonic is her straight man is when he is being the tactical cautious character, not due to his own unique positive aspects.

 

You said it yourself, Sally foils Sonic thoroughly. She opposes his defining flaws and acts as pacifier to them, specifically because she is his polar opposite. Sonic doesn't really do the same back, he bodyguards her and soothes her when she's down, but because Sally rarely screws up in a manner that opposes his personality, he can't really foil her in the same way, at least not in a way that is specifically down to his unique positive aspects. In Sonic's Nightmare he doesn't oppose Sally's plan (and why should he, it only failed because Ant ruined everything), and for some random reason, he still seemed to be the one getting rammed into his head to be more careful at the end. He sorta got proved right in Sonic Racer, but again that was Antoine's stupidity that led to Sally's team failing. Sally never failed specifically due to acting like Sonic's opposite so he couldn't foil her back to the same degree.

 

If I can try make a proper comparison, say Sonic had the same characterization in the show as always, but never made mistakes due to his recklessness. In fact all his mistakes were being the exact opposite, being a neurotic worrywart or cowardly, either way something that does not represent his defining approach. Do you think Sal's dynamic with him would have worked so well and her positive aspects would have gotten as much opportunity to shine? Do you think Sonic's flawed side would have developed as well strictly from this method as well?

 

It's like how Sonic X Sonic was the opposite problem. He had the same sort of cocky attitude and all, but was thoroughly infallible in his methods, he could take a gamble and charge through anything no problem (like Sally, he could lose at times, but not really in a way that was directly due to a flaw in this approach of his, he was NEVER made to be reckless). Anyone who opposed Sonic's methods was seen as less competent than him, falling victim to a Complainer Is Always Wrong moment and ending up his butt monkey. Do you think Sal would have been able to foil this version of Sonic as well?

 

Also keep in mind the fact it's not just being flawed but accepting you're flawed and trying to learn from it, hence show's having 'morals'. Sonic was put through the fact he made a fatal error and had to make amends and usually apologize for his idiocy. Aside from Secret Scrolls, Sally was never called out for making a mistake or under any notion that she had to change her approach or show humility, and as said, even at that time it was skewed due to her having Sonic's flaw at the time. I think this is why, as you discussed in another thread, Sally can be seen as 'perfect' AND 'a bitch' at the same time, she can be flawed in her ways, but the universe skews things so she doesn't need to face consequences for them, while Sonic and Ant can't get away with nuthin'.

 

 

 

A part of me thinks Sonic does have some advantage over Sally as a quick improviser, someone who can be brillant in an extemporanious way. Sonic has pulled some smart moves from under his sleeve in a jam "When the hedgehog brains a cookin'..." And that is not even delving into kinistetic apprehension, which is indeed takes a lot of brains.

 

I kinda saw that too, Sonic should have the advantages of being spontaneous, resourceful and improvisional, but flaws like being reckless and lacking in basic planning. Sally should be more cautious and tactical, but inflexible and over reliant on a plan. It's just that we rarely saw this flawed side of Sal. Something like her making a supposedly full proof plan, and then being unable to think of plan B when something goes wrong and panicking for example. Or maybe just being the opposite of Sonic's lack of planning through and over thinking every detail to a flaw and getting nowhere. Anything that brought out a clear character flaw in this method like how Sonic does with his.

 

As said Sal was at least The Finicky One in Satam (she seems kinda non discript in Archie though) but she never really got any 'morals' or moments of error from it.

[E122Psi]

 

 

It's like how Sonic X Sonic was the opposite problem. He had the same sort of cocky attitude and all, but was thoroughly infallible in his methods, he could take a gamble and charge through anything no problem (like Sally, he could lose at times, but not really in a way that was directly due to a flaw in this approach of his, he was NEVER made to be reckless). Anyone who opposed Sonic's methods was seen as less competent than him, falling victim to a Complainer Is Always Wrong moment and ending up his butt monkey. Do you think Sal would have been able to foil this version of Sonic as well?

 

Not really, and that's mostly due to the Sonic X/Game Universe being more about Sonic just kicking butt than teamwork.

 

*EDIT*

 

Again, I say though that if Sonic had not been impulsive and reckless over Sally's objections in Super Sonic they would have totally lost; in that case Sally's careful approach was glaringly wrong.

 

To be fair lots of other characters in the SEGA incarnations get personality based Aesops (Knuckles got many over his gullibility, Cream got one over being too pacifistic in Battle, not to mention multiple cases in the Adventure series). Along with Sonic having a very clear reckless moment in Lost World, the SEGA versions tend to hand personality pivoted stories more often than the American ones.

 

The thing is that example is VERY contrived, Sonic was still being reckless, just it came as a convenience since Robotnik coincidentally got his hands on the device beforehand and Lazarr turned out to be good.  He didn't anticipate any of it so it wasn't really a moment of clarity for him. The problem was not pivoted by Sal as much as Sonic's antics came in handy in all the crap coming together.

 

I may just see this because Sonic's moments were clear cut blatant in formula. 'Sonic wants to take a risk' - 'Sally anticipates it and wards him off' - 'Sonic doesn't listen and takes said risk' - 'Sonic gets in trouble' - 'Sally's tactics bail him out' - 'Sonic learns lesson about being reckless', along with the fact that Sonic was far more likely to suffer a whopping humiliation conga and look like a clown. In cases such as the above you had to think very carefully whether Sally had actually done anything wrong, and even then she didn't face development or humility from it.

[furrykef]

I'm sorry Kef. How and what way do you prefer it?

To be honest I prefer text without any fancy formatting. ^^;

[E122Psi]

 

 

The thing is that example is VERY contrived, Sonic was still being reckless, just it came as a convenience since Robotnik coincidentally got his hands on the device beforehand and Lazarr turned out to be good.  He didn't anticipate any of it so it wasn't really a moment of clarity for him. The problem was not pivoted by Sal as much as Sonic's antics came in handy in all the crap coming together.

 

I may just see this because Sonic's moments were clear cut blatant in formula. 'Sonic wants to take a risk' - 'Sally anticipates it and wards him off' - 'Sonic doesn't listen and takes said risk' - 'Sonic gets in trouble' - 'Sally's tactics bail him out' - 'Sonic learns lesson about being reckless', along with the fact that Sonic was far more likely to suffer a whopping humiliation conga and look like a clown. In cases such as the above you had to think very carefully whether Sally had actually done anything wrong, and even then she didn't face development or humility from it.

 

 

But isn't that how "being reckless" would turn out? By definition you can't be reckless AND plan for something to happen; you'd be relying on luck and your skill at handling such situations. Really, it's the way it works out and in the instances I pointed out if Sally is the tactician then she failed in her duty in a similar way that Sonic does when he is reckless. Sonic, screwing up when he's being reckless is much more conspicuous than if Sally screws up in not taking everything into account when planning.

For Sally to be proven wrong by the definition you are giving would require Sally to plan a mission in her normal careful manner, Sonic coming up with a plan that goes about it the most chaotic way possible, Sally ignores his advise and goes about it in her normal tactical manner, which ends up horribly failing because of her planning, and then Sonic saves her despite her pedantic behaviour, shoves it in her face, forcefeeding her humble pie, proving that she should be more spontaneous; essentially embarrassing her in front of everyone.

 

I think that kinda pinpoints the problem however, you say Sonic's traits are still being reckless even in a positive sense. Sonic doesn't have to act irresponsible to be spontaneous, more opportunistic and willing to take a gamble perhaps, but not completely tactless and suicidal, that only furthers the idea that his way of doing things is far more flawed than Sally's. You can still be spontaneous and to some extent be thinking things through rather than just randomly charging at things like a Leeroy Jenkins. Take Sonic in Colors for example, going about things in a rather quick spontaneous pattern, but based on some resourceful or Genre Savvy assumption.

 

Say Sally made a plan, a very careful plan, albeit to an equal flaw. It's ridiculously complex, is too reliant on everyone doing everything to extremely difficult precision and probably takes a lot of time. Not to mention should the slightest change be made in the layout the plan would fall apart, with Sally likely unable to improvise a plan, Sonic could maybe have an alternate plan, one that is maybe more of a gamble, but is far more simple to plot out, and he is being resourceful enough to ensure there is an easier way out should it fail (especially since he's likely traveled through most of Robotropolis to have more knowledge about it than Sal). This could also maybe a point to showcase Sally's well meaning insistence on order, being more controlling and overbearing this time and trying to keep Sonic on a leash while he's trying to explain the problem, or perhaps keeping him out of the mission entirely, in fear his risk taking ruins everything. This keeps with the usual dynamic, Sonic has problems following orders, while Sally is too fond of giving them.

 

Alternatively maybe Sally would be inflexible to the point of refusing to take action whatsoever, insisting on a very slow process that doesn't involve any potential risks before going into harms way at all, allowing Robotnik to gradually close in on them (I suppose this would be a less contrived variation of 'Super Sonic').

 

The Aesop may be difficult (though I don't think it would hurt to show Sally in a more clownish light, so long as it wasn't outright mean spirited), a big remedy would be to simply not make Sonic act like a bad winner about it (Sally was sympathetic in some cases Sonic screwed up, eg. Sonic Conversation), half the point is for him to get a moment of clarity anyway, and he was capable of showing a kinder side without outright breaking character. If you really wanted to keep it restrained, you could maybe have Sonic doing something reckless earlier, making Sal's overboard strategy more sympathetic and emphasizing Sonic has learnt from his mistake and has gone through things more carefully this time (albeit still in a way that defines his direction), further punctuating the idea of a compromise in ethics.

 

I suggest you look at other shows and how they handle a meticulous finicky character's moment in the spotlight. Take Twilight Sparkle's limelight episodes in Friendship Is Magic (especially "Look Before You Sleep" and "Lesson Zero"). Talespin's "I've Only Got Ice For You" is another good example.