564 replies to this topic

[TheRedStranger]

Freedom Fighters are fighting for "freedom" - but what do they mean by that? If they are fighting for personal freedom why do they support a monarchy that has even the unilateral the power to demilitarize a whole nation (and possibly a whole planet)? Why would someone who fights for personal freedom and emancipation of Robians support the restoration of such a monarchy?

[Prince ByTor]

Freedom Fighters are fighting for "freedom" - but what do they mean by that? If they are fighting for personal freedom why do they support a monarchy that has even the unilateral the power to demilitarize a whole nation (and possibly a whole planet)? Why would someone who fights for personal freedom and emancipation of Robians support the restoration of such a monarchy?

 

They were "Freedom" they were fighting for was freedom from the tyranny of Robotnik, period. Whatever change of governance would come after his defeat and probably would happen; I would expect to at least a reduction in the power of the monarchy afterwards; if anything they'd end up being figureheads and at worst they'd go the way of the French monarchs.

[E122Psi]

 I believed that he felt Snively had strengths where alternatively Julian had weaknesses and vice versa, something only Julian saw rather than his eager-to-please nephew noting until possibly years later. However, rather than letting Snively be a right-hand man, Julian preferred to maintain total control of the operation as to where he didn't fall into the same trap with Naugus most likely.

I'm not sure about that. Robotnik seems a type that would be too deluded to admit he had ANY remote weaknesses. It is quite apparent in Season Two, he disregards any of Snively's arguments (if not outright threatens him for even implying he could be wrong in his strategy), generally only valuing him as a yes man or someone he can blast his ego onto.

 

As mentioned Robotnik is egotistical, and for most egotists it's not enough that THEY know they're brilliant. Given his goals involved robbing everyone of their sentience, it seems he would still need someone around to reflect his feelings of pride and remind him of his godliness. This would also explain why he valued something like Cluck or gave some of his robots sentience and intelligence, which otherwise could run the risk of treachery. He wanted intelligent life around to value him.

 

I could be wrong though, Cluck and nearly all such cases were gone by Season Two, and as proved in the final episode, Snively was despensible even just on the grounds of a bad mood.

[TheRedStranger]

 

Freedom Fighters are fighting for "freedom" - but what do they mean by that? If they are fighting for personal freedom why do they support a monarchy that has even the unilateral the power to demilitarize a whole nation (and possibly a whole planet)? Why would someone who fights for personal freedom and emancipation of Robians support the restoration of such a monarchy?

 

They were "Freedom" they were fighting for was freedom from the tyranny of Robotnik, period. Whatever change of governance would come after his defeat and probably would happen; I would expect to at least a reduction in the power of the monarchy afterwards; if anything they'd end up being figureheads and at worst they'd go the way of the French monarchs.

 

 

What might this process look like?

[Prince ByTor]

Best case it would probably be similar to what we see with Great Britain, we'd have real power going to an upper and lower house and some ceremonial power still with the monarchy. This is the best-case, and I would see a leader like Sally being able to lay down her "legitimate power" for the people to make their own political decisions.

 

However, if the monarchy decided not to abide by the peoples' wishes, then you'd see a civil war erupt, which would possibly end horribly for the crown.

[TheRedStranger]

Best case it would probably be similar to what we see with Great Britain, we'd have real power going to an upper and lower house and some ceremonial power still with the monarchy. This is the best-case, and I would see a leader like Sally being able to lay down her "legitimate power" for the people to make their own political decisions.

 

However, if the monarchy decided not to abide by the peoples' wishes, then you'd see a civil war erupt, which would possibly end horribly for the crown.

 

Do you think a Constitutional Monarchy is plausible?

[Prince ByTor]

The short answer is yes. But the better question would be: would the populous and the monarchy have the stomach for more war after The Great War and the war with Robotnik?

[RedAuthar]

The short answer is yes. But the better question would be: would the populous and the monarchy have the stomach for more war after The Great War and the war with Robotnik?

Yes.  Right after the French Indian War and The Revolutionary War in America, people were constantly up and about "rebelling" against any law the states or Articles of Confederation they didn't like.  I think the same thing would happen on Mobius.  Once Robotnik is out of the way, people would feel they actually had the power to change something and would be more willing to do it.  More willing to fight for it.

 

On the other side, they just fought tooth and nail to restore the monarchy of old.  They wouldn't give it up again without a fight.

 

So a Civil War is almost unavoidable...kinda depressing actually. 

[TheRedStranger]

 

The short answer is yes. But the better question would be: would the populous and the monarchy have the stomach for more war after The Great War and the war with Robotnik?

Yes.  Right after the French Indian War and The Revolutionary War in America, people were constantly up and about "rebelling" against any law the states or Articles of Confederation they didn't like.  I think the same thing would happen on Mobius.  Once Robotnik is out of the way, people would feel they actually had the power to change something and would be more willing to do it.  More willing to fight for it.

 

On the other side, they just fought tooth and nail to restore the monarchy of old.  They wouldn't give it up again without a fight.

 

So a Civil War is almost unavoidable...kinda depressing actually. 

 

 

He's right, big chance of that happening: 

http://en.wikipedia....iskey_Rebellion

 

Results of the fight like the ones above can vary in damage and loss of life.

 

Thoughts about a civil war?

Let's look into it.

[RedAuthar]

Regardless what anyone does, I think the Mobians would be unsatisfied with the Monarchy being unable to protect them the first time.  This in itself will spark a rebellion or war between those who want the change, and those who wish to keep things as they were.

[Captain Sorzo]

Regardless what anyone does, I think the Mobians would be unsatisfied with the Monarchy being unable to protect them the first time.

 

I think this would be outweighed by Robotnik's defeat being spearheaded by the royal heir. Sally would be seen as a hero, and I can't see any efforts to institute political reformation gaining much traction if they called for her losing much or all of her power. Consider how many presidents were elected due to their popularity as war heroes. Assuming that Sally herself didn't push for a new form of government, the only individual who would have enough popularity to potentially inspire drastic reformation would be Sonic, someone both unfamiliar with politics and in love with the woman who, depending on the fate of King Max, would either be queen or on the verge of assuming the throne.

 

Bear in mind that there is no indication that Robotnik would have been stopped had he been attempting to overthrow some other form of government. Again, war heroes are incredibly popular; Julian would have wielded considerable political favor regardless of the system in place. In fact, in an electoral system he could very well have been voted head of state, thus making his subsequent coup even easier. Nor is there any indication that the people ruled by the Acorn line were discontent with their form of government. In fact, other than the Great War, a conflict in all liklihood initiated by either foreign parties or Robotnik himself, what little we know about the period before the coup comes across as quite utopic. Whatever system was in place was clearly effective when not being threatened by conspiracies years in the making.

 

I suspect that, realistically, the monarchy would be restored, with greater scrutiny placed on high ranking officials. Measures to remove the ruling monarch in the event of gross abuse of power might also be established if they were not already.

[TheRedStranger]

I think I'll be holding a Skype call about this thread soon, just discuss all we have discussed so far and have bit of free-form talk.

 

[I'll me responding to some the above posts real soon.]

[Captain Sorzo]

Provide details (read: a time and date) and I'll try to make it.

[GamemasterAnthony]

I, honestly, don't think a rebellion will happen.  If Sally is any indication, members of the monarchy were in the trenches with the civilians and managed to form friendships with such.  As such, I suspect that after Robotnik is gone the new monarchy would form a council composed of members of the general public to voice their opinions on whatever concerns pop up.  Something akin to the way the Knights of the Round Table were depicted in various forms:  No head or foot of the table, everyone has a voice.  ("First Knight" also showed the other KotR treating King Arthur like an old frat buddy when he announced his marriage.)

 

Also...a civil war also seems unlikely.  Not only are the Mobians likely to be war-weary after the Great War and the Robotnik conflict, but one good thing came out of the Robotnik conflict because Robotnik actually gave the Mobian race (and possibly even the Overlanders who opposed Robotnik) a common enemy which they could all join against.  Whatever post Great War tensions might have existed before Robotnik would most likely have been shoved aside and over time forgotten in the name of a mutual goal.

 

If there are any tensions post-Robotnik, it would most likely be due to the "What now?" factor.  Between rebuilding what was destroyed, cleaning up the environmental damage, and dealing with the psycological damages to the people (ESPECIALLY the Robians), there's definitely some stressful times ahead.  I'm not entirely sure this would lead to infighting...as, again, this was something pretty much everyone experienced and as such the people would most likely sympathize with each other's feelings.

 

Just my 2 Mobiums on the matter.  I know I'm spitballing here, but this is what happens when you write fanfic: You tend to conceptionalize potential plots after certain events happen.

[RedAuthar]

Just my 2 Mobiums 

 

Has it always been Mobiums?  I thought the currency was also called Mobians.

 

 

I, honestly, don't think a rebellion will happen.  If Sally is any indication, members of the monarchy were in the trenches with the civilians and managed to form friendships with such.

Ah but Sally's a good strategist not necessarily a leader. 

 

In SatAM they mention that SONIC is actually the leader, Sally just makes the plans, which Sonic being a butt ignores anyways.

 

While she may be a war hero, I don't think the people would trust the Monarchy who put Robotnik in position to take over in the first place again.  It only takes one mistake to bring down a dynasty.

 

 

Also...a civil war also seems unlikely.  Not only are the Mobians likely to be war-weary after the Great War and the Robotnik conflict, but one good thing came out of the Robotnik conflict because Robotnik actually gave the Mobian race (and possibly even the Overlanders who opposed Robotnik) a common enemy which they could all join against.  Whatever post Great War tensions might have existed before Robotnik would most likely have been shoved aside and over time forgotten in the name of a mutual goal.

Save for Griff's people who were totally willing to screw the Freedom Fighters so they could survive....

Ari who was totally willing to screw Sonic to save his people....

The Bikers who were totally willing to eat Antoine because....I dunno....Antoine is weird.....

The Wolf Pack who didn't trust Sally's group when they first arrived because they didn't want to be screwed over....

 

Sounds more like to me that the Mobians are still very divided.  Even the different resistance groups are willing to backstab each other for their own survival.  The enemy of my enemy does not make them my friend.

 

I think this would be outweighed by Robotnik's defeat being spearheaded by the royal heir. Sally would be seen as a hero, and I can't see any efforts to institute political reformation gaining much traction if they called for her losing much or all of her power. Consider how many presidents were elected due to their popularity as war heroes. 

 

Sally may be on the frontlines of the Knothole Freedom Fighters, but the Wolf Pack is loyal to Lupe, Griff's people are Loyal to Griff, and so on.  There are no promises that they'd fall in line behind Sally and the Kingdom of Acorn.  

 

 

Bear in mind that there's no indication that the people ruled by the Acorn line were discontent with their form of government.

Save for the fact they gave pretty much all military power to Robotnik who then took over the whole planet....that's surely not a reason to mistrust someone...

 

Humans mistrust Presidents or Presidential Candidates for the stupidest reasons, I don't think Mobians would be any different.  

 

And honestly if they whine is bad you throw it out, the Government screwed up, it's time for a change. 

 

 

As such, I suspect that after Robotnik is gone the new monarchy would form a council composed of members of the general public to voice their opinions on whatever concerns pop up.

 

This happened in the comics....and they elected Naugus head of the Council so that plan backfired.

 

No but seriously, in SatAM there is no sign that decision making comes from anyone other than Sally and Sonic.  Sure they talk to each other and the other Freedom Fighters but Sonic does whatever he wants and Sal still pretty much tells everyone else what to do.  

 

While this did happen in the comics, SatAM doesn't promote that outcome.  No it doesn't deny it either, but it would be quite radical to think Sally would change the government based on how she lead her Freedom Fighters now.

 

 

Also...a civil war also seems unlikely.  Not only are the Mobians likely to be war-weary after the Great War and the Robotnik conflict, but one good thing came out of the Robotnik conflict because Robotnik actually gave the Mobian race (and possibly even the Overlanders who opposed Robotnik) a common enemy which they could all join against. 

We've had war after war after war since nearly the dawn of time on our Earth.  Here in the US we're really quick to jump into action when conflicts arise (I could argue about that as well but that's another topic.).  Since the formation of the US there hasn't been a 10 year period without a War we've been involved in (Granted not all of them are huge scale conflicts that directly effected us). Why would Mobius be any different?

 

Sure the people may be tired of war, but they would also be on a high of "Look at the difference we can make for our beliefs".  

 

And this whole debate right now proves there'd be at least two sides, those who think the old Monarchy should be restored (regardless if it's because of Sally's actions or because of other reasons) and those who believe change should be brought to the Government.

 

 

Lastly I'd like to point out that SatAM revolves around young Mobians who were mere children during the coup.  And they were a small percentage of survivors.  The Majority of the World was captured and Roboticized by Robotnik.  We don't know how they feel about the current situation of Mobius.  We pretty much can never know.  

 

Mobius is on the brink of Civil War Once Robotnik is overthrown.  The only saving grace would be Sonic and Sally's choice on how to end the conflict before it begins.  Mostly on Sal because Sonic has already shown that he's going to do whatever he wants anyways. 

[Uncle Ben]

I think the Currency was Mobiums.

 

 

The short answer is yes. But the better question would be: would the populous and the monarchy have the stomach for more war after The Great War and the war with Robotnik?

 

Unless Sal' has the ability to immediately unite people under the Acorn banner there would be a Civil War... or at least a very, very close to happening of one

[TheRedStranger]

Wow. There is some good commentary  here; I will throw my hat into the mix soon, but you guys are just doing real well to interupt.

 

Let's talk about the Monarchy. How would you guys expand and expound upon it, given what you know about the political structure and social dynamics a real monarchy brings to the table for its populace? What could Satam's Kingdom of Acorn be expounded upon narrative wise?

Provide details (read: a time and date) and I'll try to make it.

 

IMing me and telling me when you are free via Skype helps as it avoids rigid scheduling and keeps me updated if you have a change of plans. Most of my calls so far have been best when there was such prior correspondence.

[Leptailurus]

Roboticization. How does it work?

 

I apologise for commenting on a topic which is more than a year old. I was reading the comments on the topic and found the whole concept of roboticisation even more thought-provoking.

I also believe that the use of nanobots is the most plausible explanation.

 

The original tissues were scanned, memorised, disintegrated and replaced with alternate robotic quasi-tissues by the nanobots.

A robo-tissue serves the same general functions, but has a different structure and different -inorganic- ways of carrying out the functions as the original tissue. There are no cells, and some parts of robo-tissues can be nearly homogenous if it is advantageous for their functions (e.g. the robo-integumentary system).

Nanobots were produced by the roboticiser, converting tissues and receiving instructions from the roboticiser - either by radiowaves or changes in the magentic field. The roboticiser also supplied the metals, carbon, silicon, phosphorus, etc. required for the synthesis of the metallic, plastic and other components. 

It would therefore be impossible to release the nanobots into the forest and expect Knothole to be roboticised, as the nanobots would have no source of materials and no instructions.

 

It was instructed for a number of new components (robo-organs) to be synthesised by the nanobots, such as the disc drive, and a means of obtaining and storing electric energy, e.g. power sockets or photovoltaic power units. Before the mass roboticisation, Robotnik made changes to the process and instructed for some other robo-organs which enable the Robians to carry out their functions in Robotropolis - screwdrivers, soldering tools, extensible limbs etc.

The thoracic and abdominal cavity would be empty without some added components, as the original organs would be redundant in a Robian. Lungs were reduced, serving only the purpose of cooling down the Robian from the inside and inducing the airflow past the chemoreceptors in the nasal cavity. There is no need for a circulatory, endocrine or an excretory system in a Robian.

Digestive system is present - as seen when the roboticised Uncle Chuck ate a chillidog, and would be desirable for Mobians treated by the roboticiser (the original purpose), because gastronomy, although not necessary for survival, is an important aspect of life and would improve the comfort of roboticised patients. Chemoreceptors are present in the oral cavity, the digestive tract is reduced, and specialised nanobots (not the original “totipotent” nanobots) process the bolus and convert its chemical potential energy into electric potential energy. It could be used as an energy source, but not for long periods of time, as the conversion is most likely inefficient.

 

The robotic nervous system consists of conductors - probably silver, optical fibres, etc. (similar to the robots from the Alien franchise) - and relays. The design of the peripheral nervous system is changed so that it can operate with the robotic components. The robo-organs have regulatory units, which communicate with the CNS. The roboticised spinal cord relays signals from the brain to the peripheral nervous system and vice versa.

Uncle Chuck intended to preserve the sentience of patients requiring roboticisation. Even then they had no understanding of the exact functions of the brain, so the roboticiser was designed to gradually replace the brain according to the original neuronal structure - preserving the connections.

In the Archie comic, Jules the Hedgehog remains unresponsive after being roboticised. In Blast to the Past part 1, Uncle Chuck says that the roboticiser takes away free will. This happens due to the fact that although the brain can send and receive signals from the spine, it is not fully adapted to the roboticised neurology - it would require adaptation to be able to gain control of the rest of the body. Neuroplasticity is significantly hindered in Robians (they change their structure only due to nanobots, their robo-tissues cannot grow), so they do not adapt and cannot manipulate their bodies, which results in unresponsiveness and could be described as “loosing free will”. Also, brain injuries therefore most probably could not be treated by roboticisation.

In order to enslave the Robians, Robotnik has included the synthesis of a robo-CNS by the roboticiser. The robo-CNS overrides the original CNS and includes AI, memory, sensory processing, motor functions, regulation, etc. (a computer with the functions of a brain) - all in specific formats and all legible and controllable by Robotnik. Albeit he had not developed the roboticiser himself, he was capable of such changes to the design, as he was most likely a robotics engineer with the Overlanders (Archie) or wherever he came from in SatAM - hence his name and the know-how needed to create a robotic army for the Acorn kingdom.

After the partial roboticisation, Bunnie probably could not move the robotic limbs. But her spine was roboticised (which contributes to her strength) so she had a working robo-neurologic connection with the roboticised organs. She was able to gain control of her limbs due to her brain gradually neuroplastically adapting for the partial roboticisation - she would have to have undergone some rehabilitation, though.

Robotnik had no means of extracting the location of Knothole from the hippocampi (memory and emotion centres) of Robians. He could have extracted the information from Uncle Chuck had he not consciously resisted, as he was once in Knothole while he was already roboticised - the information was recorded in the robo-CNS and it could be read by Robotnik or Snively. However, they had to torture Cat and Antoine (or dose them with sodium thiopentone - simpler, but less painful, questionable effectiveness (side-effects, Mobian physiology unknown, and may not always inhibit lying) and, most importantly, does not involve "marvellous machines"). Their roboticisation would prevent them from finding out where Knothole was as no data about Knothole would have been stored on the robo-CNS - they would only have roboticised hippocampi, which they could not read.

 

If the roboticiser were used for its original purpose, injuries would be detected and their repair would have to be directed by a trained medical professional. Partial roboticisation could also be set, if required.

 

Nanobots remained embedded in tissues, in microcavities sparsely scattered throughout the whole Robian. In case of damage, the nanobots multiply (materials for multiplication are gained by decomposing and recycling some of the robo-tissue) and repair the damage. The memorisation of the original tissue structure is therefore important, and can be exploited during deroboticisation. Memory is stored either in the robo-CNS, or in the nanobots themselves as a group. The repair is not instant, may take several hours and may require some more metal, carbon, silicon etc. depending on the extent and location of the damage.

The time and resources required explain why SWATbots, which surely use a similar nanobot repair technology, could have been destroyed and have not risen repaired immediately after the attack.

Deroboticisation involved the breakdown of the robo-tissues and their replacement with original tissues. The process is much more complicated. Instead of the metals and silicon, it requires the building blocks of animal cells and non-cell tissue material. Before the deroboticisation, substances such as nucleotides, proteins, lipids, saccharides had to be synthesised. Cells had to be extracted from the host (or synthesised if none were available), reverted to their totipotent state and cultured. It involved the addition of altered nanobots specialised for organic synthesis. The deroboticised Mobians would have to undergo further treatment afterwards. (Ossification and generation of blood cells have to be accelerated, some organs may end up hypoplastic, tumour growth may occur, the digestive system would lack a microbiome - leading to indigestion and susceptibility to infections, etc.)

 

Power Rings, with their magical properties, accelerate the neuroplasticity of Robians. (They do have influence on Sonic’s neurology, enhancing his spatial orientation, sensory perception etc.) Uncle Chuck was exposed to the Power Ring and could overrride the robo-CNS for a period of time. Second exposure caused him enough change to completely retain his free will. When he held the Power Ring in Ultra Sonic, it glowed (as opposed to situations where Mobians other than Sonic held Power Rings and they stopped glowing) - implying that it was interacting with Chuck in some way, and was not merely an object triggering memories.

 

Unfortunately, this description does not explain the instant reroboticisation happening outside of the roboticiser. Some of the nanobots could have remained in the organic tissues, treating it as damage, and gradually “repairing” it. The nanobots would still need materials to carry out the roboticisation process. Over a period of time, they could have been extracted form the tissues (which is improbable as it would have adverse effects on the organism e.g. anaemia, wasting, arthritis…) or from the surroundings. However, the spontaneous reroboticisation would take years, not seconds…

 

Did I miss anything? I may have made some errors.

 

And about the dismantling of the military:  When King Max ordered the military to be disassembled, he may have only meant the robots. He could still have the Mobian military. It was still unreasonable, but there may have been other reasons besides his apparent naïveté, such as consumption of resources for their maintenance which could be used elsewhere (fuel, metal, plastics).

[RedAuthar]

No worries, sometimes it's good to look back at older topics.

[Uncle Ben]

TL;DR

Naw you actually made a lotta sense