564 replies to this topic

[wildfire]

I had begun writing a fanfic titled "The Rightful Heir" that was based on the premise of what the freedom fighters would be like if they were considered terrorists.  Basically, Robotnik has established control of Robotropolis and populated it with Overlanders and sympathetic Mobians.  I lost the parts I'd written when my computer took a shit.  Sometime I may try again, but I have some other things I'm supposed to do.

[Koreth]

Apologies if this question has already been addressed, I'm still working my way through all 25 pages of this thread.

 

One thing that ocurred to me recently is that Robotnick has had many opportunities to invade Knothole and capture the Freedom Fighters, one for each that he's captured and roboticized. In Spy Hog, he gets Uncle Chuck to confess by plugging him in. I seem to also recall a similar machine that lets him scan the mind and memories of a captured citizen in Dulcy, which he uses to discover the location of Dragon's Nest. So why did it never ocurr to Robotnik to do as he did with the robotized dragon in Dulcy as he did with other captured fredom fighters?

 

I'm willing to conceed that Chuck didn't know originally, as he was captured roboticized before the kids escaped to Knothole in BttP pt 2. But Rosie, Cat, and the three un-named extras from the beginning of BttP pt 1 presumably all knew where knothole was. Why didn't Robotnik simply plug them in and scan their memories?

[TheRedStranger]

One thing that ocurred to me recently is that Robotnick has had many opportunities to invade Knothole and capture the Freedom Fighters, one for each that he's captured and roboticized. In Spy Hog, he gets Uncle Chuck to confess by plugging him in. I seem to also recall a similar machine that lets him scan the mind and memories of a captured citizen in Dulcy, which he uses to discover the location of Dragon's Nest. So why did it never ocurr to Robotnik to do as he did with the robotized dragon in Dulcy as he did with other captured fredom fighters?

 

 

 

This is a good question.

 

Many factors can be involved. One being contingency. In my work I explain that Sally has a bottle neck stratgey where many in Knothole are taught ways to leave to Knothole that are very disadvantagous tactically to enter with several patrols and secret checks along the way. If Robotnik was to send troops this way they will meet the same end Custer did with the indians.  For seeing this possibility Sally could easily use counter-intellgence to develop contingencies into excessing the location of Knothole. Rosie, Cat, and the extras could have been taught to make their paths to and fro from Knothole to be incredibly disadvantgous for Swatbot advancement.

 

But our most general culprit is one of willpower (Don't we see Chuck resist that interrogation)? Note that Cat resisted and Robotnik threatend to torcher him. If he could merely rip the data from one like Cat by roboticization, then he would not waste time toruring him, but finding the location of Knothhole as it's leader and lancer were in a precarious sitiation in the Dark Swamp - a perfect time to strike. We have seen that Roboticization can be resisted and that the persons are indeed aware over what t is happening to their bodies. This means that the concious is in tact. If you study nuerology you will see an intresting phenomena in hypnotism where the power of suggestion can not coerce one to give into acting in a way will that violate their moral code (in fact Mythbusters did an an illuminating experiment on just this). Since the higher concious is not dominated by Robotnik then we can assume he can only coerce information and perhaps that is what he done from these coupe time Robians. I am sure those in Knothole are conditioned and motivated deeply to not spill the beans no matter their condition or cost and if they give information that information is not exact and infact a trap in disguise. Even goofy Antoine didn't cave to "torture" with ease, that should say something.

 

I'm willing to conceed that Chuck didn't know originally, as he was captured roboticized before the kids escaped to Knothole in BttP pt 2. But Rosie, Cat, and the three un-named extras from the beginning of BttP pt 1 presumably all knew where knothole was. Why didn't Robotnik simply plug them in and scan their memories?

[Koreth]

If you study nuerology you will see an intresting phenomena in hypnotism where the power of suggestion can not coerce one to give into acting in a way will that violate their moral code (in fact Mythbusters did an an illuminating experiment on just this). Since the higher concious is not dominated by Robotnik then we can assume he can only coerce information and perhaps that is what he done from these coupe time Robians. I am sure those in Knothole are conditioned and motivated deeply to not spill the beans no matter their condition or cost and if they give information that information is not exact and infact a trap in disguise.

I'd love to buy this, but I'd think Uncle Chuck would have been as motivated as any of the others to not divulge the location of knothole, and he did indeed resist. And yet that resistance was for naught, as Robotnik needed only flip a couple more switches and Uncle Chuck caved. It was only Sonic intervening at the last second that saved them all.

It seems to me that there'd have to be something more at play than the will being dominated by being roboticized and plugged in.

[TheRedStranger]

It seems to me that there'd have to be something more at play than the will being dominated by being roboticized and plugged in. 

 

 

Then why does it take a personal vocal admission? Why wasn't the data just siphoned directly like one does from a hardrive from Chuck's brain, unless of course the brain is still somehow organic or the higher concious inacessible (look at Robians real quick - when they are used for anything beside a worker - Chuck detaining Sonic - this leaves openings for the higher functions to take over, the ones of concsious the ones of soul.  Let's review Spyhog, how time elapsed before Chuck's admission? And what would have that admission been? Would it have been admission of exact cordinates or comparitive location? Either way excessing and verifying that information (and we are not giving enough credit to Chuck here - there is such a thing as giving misinformation) would be difficult if there was defense contingencies involved. We can assume there are, after all the Great Forest still exsists and most attacks on the forest itself have been indirect and on it's borders.

 

I think the machinary used is most likely newer technology as it is shown later in the series, and even with this is in play these attempts will have contingencies as with my idea of bottle-necking.

[RedAuthar]

Robians lose their personality and memories when they are in Robotnik's control. You can see this because when Chuck first gets his free will back, it takes him a moment to recognize Sonic. It was only when Chuck had his free will that that Robotnik could access Knothole's data.

Only in Archie Sonic do the Robians retain their memories.

[TheRedStranger]

Robians lose their personality and memories when they are in Robotnik's control. You can see this because when Chuck first gets his free will back, it takes him a moment to recognize Sonic. It was only when Chuck had his free will that that Robotnik could access Knothole's data.

Only in Archie Sonic do the Robians retain their memories.

 

Hm...You might have something here. This is callled Anomia, in nuerology (or what many call a brain-fart). Perhaps their programming is double edged sword for Robotnik:  what's supressed can't be acessed. If he started doing this he would activate those memories in Robians and thus would spark their free wills and therefore insight rebellion and motivation to give misinformation out of spite for their slavery.

 

So their memories are supressed with their will, and thus inacessable, but Chuck claims are also aware of what is happening to them. So we can assume that they are still "there" but they are inacessible to themselves and by default so is Robotnik? And since personality and memory are endemic to each other it becomes a tricky trade off. There is only the programming untill the supressed personality is given a jumpstart to excess that personal data and that jumpstart can backfire. 

[Koreth]

Okay, that makes more sense to me, as it falls in line with with what we saw in Ultra Sonic and Sonic Conversion.

[TheRedStranger]

Okay, that makes more sense to me, as it falls in line with with what we saw in Ultra Sonic and Sonic Conversion.

 

So from the whole of this discussion, Koreth. What would you personally conclude? What's your synthesis in all this?

[E122Psi]

That is probably also the most liable explanation as to how Chuck could maintain his sanity in that state for A DECADE (and even go so far as to explain such a disposition with such nonchalance).

[Koreth]

One thing that sticks with me is the lines from Sonic Conversion:
<Chuck> "I've been dreaming of this since the first day I was roboticized."
<Sonic> "You have? But I thought when you were roboticized, you didn't--"
<Chuck> "--know what was going on? We know everything. We just can't do anything about it."

This, to me, paints a rather horrifying picture: being a prisoner in your forcibly converted body, but completely unable to affect it as something else controls you. Faced with a situation like this, I imagine most people would eventually be taken by despair and apathy. You know how one can 'zone out' and not really see what's going on in front of them? I think this happens to most robians; they mentally give up, and cease paying attention, trying, or caring.

Compare the effect of the ring in Sonic Conversion to Ultra Sonic. Both times, there was a pause as Uncle Chuck was disoriented. However, in Ultra Sonic, it was much longer, and Chuck wasn't sure he was really recognizing Sonic and the others at first. I'm going to assume for the sake of easy math that about a year passed between Ultra Sonic and Sonic Conversion. When Chuck's will was temporarily restored the first time, it had been ten years since his capture and robotization, and I'd not fault him for having gone partially catatonic as described above.

But after that first time, he now knows that his nephew, the princess, and their friends not only survived the coup, but are actively defying Robotnik, and succeeding. That would have rekindled his hope, allowing him to make it to the events in Sonic Conversion, and to get his will back much faster the second time around.

[TheRedStranger]

 They seem to have a base awarness of what's going on. "Everything" could means a lot of things, it is vauge. Perhaps they are supressed mentally but aware in an almost nightmare kind of way, a subconcious awarness the same as sleep-walking. It could be just that, in way he was dreaming of this day. It makes sense that they would enter such a diseffected and disillusion state of withdraw. And this could easily fit with what I have said above.

 

http://www.sonicsatam.com/media/169-2/

 

For future reference. If anyone needs to qoute or check qoutes. 

[TheRedStranger]

Why are Robians not used for weapons of terror and military purposes?

[Uncle Ben]

Why are Robians not used for weapons of terror and military purposes?

 

Just the shock value in seeing loved ones in a robotic form would cause most of them to loose the will to fight, its psychological

[RedAuthar]

Metal people versus a robot designed for fighting. Whic sounds like a more plausible soldier?

[Mike Arcade]

What about Weaponized Robians? Why didn't Robotnik think of and use that to his advantage? Like what happened to Sally in Archie Sonic.

[RedAuthar]

Cuz Roboticization works differently in the show and the comic

[Uncle Ben]

What about Weaponized Robians? Why didn't Robotnik think of and use that to his advantage? Like what happened to Sally in Archie Sonic.

 

It was 2 different things

[LogiTeeka]

Cuz Roboticization works differently in the show and the comic

Not exactly. In the beginning, the roboticizer worked similarly to how it did in the original show. But after the BEM made everyone impervious to its effects, the old process no longer worked. It's likely that Eggman updated and modified the machine's process when Mecha Sally was created.

[TheRedStranger]

What about Weaponized Robians? Why didn't Robotnik think of and use that to his advantage? Like what happened to Sally in Archie Sonic.

 

Yes that's the rub...why not use them as a terror weapon against the Freedom Fighters? We clearly see they are able to agress (Uncle Chuck). Why not use them to terrorize and attack the Freedom Fighters?