564 replies to this topic

[TheRedStranger]

It is thr same thing I planned to delve into in EoT.

I thought had great potential and we should look into this more. How do you see Sonic's potential powers developing through out Satam. Let's pontificate on the implications of his Satam-specific capabilities, limitations, and weaknesses.

[E122Psi]

Game Guy shown Dulcy could pretty much blast through Swatbots with her breath powers, but spent most of her time as a flying vehicle in the series. Hell Sonic pretty much made a complete joke of Robotnik whenever they went face to face (was there anything stopping him from just capturing Robotnik in 'Sonic Conversation'?). Keeping a maintenance on the cast's powers was maybe one of the show's flaws.

[TheRedStranger]

Game Guy shown Dulcy could pretty much blast through Swatbots with her breath powers, but spent most of her time as a flying vehicle in the series. Hell Sonic pretty much made a complete joke of Robotnik whenever they went face to face (was there anything stopping him from just capturing Robotnik in 'Sonic Conversation'?). Keeping a maintenance on the cast's powers was maybe one of the show's flaws.

 

That is an excellent point. How would you all limit powers to make the conflict for tense and dymanic?

[Captain Sorzo]

Remove Dulcy from the equation entirely.

 

As for Robotnik, both limit his direct encounters with Sonic and give him enough physical ability through cybernetic enhancements to hold his own. Not saying they should frequently directly fight or anything, just that he should be dangerous enough that Sonic can't simply spindash him to death.

[TheRedStranger]

Yes. I think Robotnik should be played off as at the least metahuman, for one it fits his developmental, cybernetic transhumanist mentality (Roboticization, modernism, and industrialization is the future). I think he shouldn't be easy to kill at all...He should at least be able to take a spin dash to the arm. in fact I have one idea that might interest you guys (I claim it though for EoT! Give credit. )

 

He perhaps has an EEG in his suit that is programed to trigger a transmission to Robotropolis. If he dies, then just a bit of semtex implanted in the base of every Robian's skull, or explosives/EMP primed to blow with in Robotnik occupied territory explodes. Sonic can't just spin to win, he would have to prevent this from happening. Of course there would be safegaurds, and that's what he would have to manipulate. 

[E122Psi]

Robotnik might have worked better as a 'Knight of Cerebus' type, one that stays in the background most of the time (or exits before anything could be done) and then that odd rare occasion has a savored, climatic showdown.

 

I think the key problems were far more evident in Season Two, largely due to limiting almost every episode to the 'Sonic, Sally and Ant' team dynamic, without much elaboration why powerhouses like Bunnie or Dulcy were placed out of favor for the completely useless Antoine. Robotnik also became more buffoonish (not that I mind being a tad comical like other Eggman incarnations, just they tended to do it manners he made very blatant mistakes, mistakes that made you wonder why he could be ruler for a decade with that mindset). Suspension of disbelief was being tested a bit too much in later episodes.

 

Dulcy might have worked if they gave her long enough limelight to demonstrate weaknesses or restraints in her powers (maybe she ran out of breath easily, or her clumsiness wasn't just limited to bad landings). I think everyone is pretty much agreed Antoine should have either been sidelined a bit or made at least nominally more competent.

[Mike Arcade]

 How would you all limit powers to make the conflict for tense and dynamic?

 

Have more tougher robots then SWATBots and Stealth Bots, seriously that and the Pod Cars were all we saw after the pilot episode sans the one off enemy robots, and we only saw Buzz Bombers once in the series, JUST ONCE. I mean really would it have killed them to put more Badniks in there? Under a strategic plan they could be rather useful if not deadly, like the Bombs from Star Light Zone.

 

As for Dulcy, she is a damn Dragon, like it or not that does make her pretty OP. Some clumsiness can subtract from that, but her being a Secondary Character that shows up every once in awhile would be better suited for her, not being a member of The Freedom Fighters for reasons.

 

I do agree with Psi though, seriously there were MANY times that Sonic could have captured Robotnik easily in Season 2. There's gotta be a good reason why Robotnik is dealing with Sonic himself OR if he does with some frequency have an easy way to escape, such as strangely running fast in short bursts in the games, a teleporter, or the good old Egg Mobile.

[E122Psi]

I remember they shown Robotnik escape with a specially made hatch in Spyhog. In fact that episode as a whole was somewhat better structured in this regard. Robotnik was back to his Season One genre savvy self. Most of the Freedom Fighters were placed into appropriate roles, Rotor was back to being the technician, Bunnie was actually taken into missions (even if she still contributed next to nothing: "We're not givin' up without a fight..." *hands up*) with Antoine coming in only when another set of hands were required or on his own accord. Dulcy was left in the sidelines again, though the setup perhaps implied this was intentional so the others left behind could make a quick trip in an emergency.

 

Since it was one of the last episodes, maybe it was showing they were starting to learn from their errors (though sadly things never lasted long enough to see if this would have been expanded on).

[RedAuthar]

Honestly I think Season 2 had a bunch of ideas left over from Season 1 that they just wanted to do.  Like they were supposed to be spread apart more but didn't get to because of lack of content.  

[TheRedStranger]

This has been some excellent discussion.

 

Let's focus on Sonic's powers for a second. How would you balance him out (or have if you have written a Fan-Fic)?

[E122Psi]

I might have downgraded him a tad, both so they can allow others to have moments in the spotlight physically, and also so they don't have to go too far diluting his mental capacity to compensate. He and Sally got oversimplified into the perennial 'brains and brawn' element of the team, leaving pretty much no room for anyone else (and likely also played into the 'Sally wins every argument' problem that happened a lot in Season Two). Keep in mind they did an early episode that focused on the fact Sonic could amount to something even without powers.

 

Bunnie should have been perhaps more the brute force of the team, while Sonic was more limited to agility based power. Something like the contrast between Sonic and Knuckles in some medias.

 

I admit I kinda wondered over the potential of the power rings if they hadn't limited to only Sonic being able to use them. Imagine others boosted by them.

[RedAuthar]

Make speed not the only solution. Sonic being able to run fast solved most of the problems in SatAM. The easiest way to weaken Sonic without going to far is have speed not always be the best optoin

[E122Psi]

I think the key problem is, as said, they oversimplified attributes, especially for Sonic and Sally, having not just specific abilities but being all around good at everything in that area. Sonic rather than just being a speed oriented hero, was the most powerful and versatile physically, while Sally, rather than just being intelligent in areas such as tactical planning and programming, became just all around smart and knowledgeable about everything (perhaps the biggest insult being in Cry of the Wolf when she steals Rotor's mechanical abilities). No one else could compete, due to having the same attributes only less, so got sidelined and looked kinda bland.

 

Hell even Antoine was somewhat guilty of this in terms of personality aspects, being the Straw Loser and all, he embodied most of the team's negative qualities. In Season One it was more balanced, Rotor was more the lovable awkward dork of the bunch while Sally took on odd pompous rivalistic moments with Sonic. In Season Two Antoine is just so much of a imbecile they usually just get sidelined as more competent foils, losing that fallible edge to them. This is likely also why Dulcy didn't really get as developed as well. She was clumsy, but couldn't take over the same pathos inducing clown role Antoine already had so ended up just sorta there doing diluted slapstick.

[Mike Arcade]

How to balance Sonic out?

For one make it so that every other Freedom Fighter has their own strengths that Sonic (and Sally for that matter) don't have. Not to mention give them all their own screen time minus Antoine. Previous posts up above aside, having tougher enemies like I talked about before would also benefit in balancing Sonic out, have a fast hedgehog who can run at impeccable speeds? Get something that can slow him down or match his speed, I'll say this that Cheetah Robot was a good step in the right direction. Also on a side note Sally shouldn't win every argument EVER, "You're right as usual" why even bother question her authority if she's so perfect all the time? She was technically right about Ari after all, it's not like she ever trusted someone that others had suspicions of and had an ulterior motive...OH WAIT *looks at Griff*.

 

You know what, I think I have a good question all thanks to Psi. Here it is...

 

Why did Chuck invent The Power Rings JUST for Sonic? How did he know it would work for him in the first place? Was he afraid that others would use them for unjust purposes, if so why bother inventing them at all? I mean Power Rings could do A LOT for The Other Members of The Freedom Fighters beside Sonic, does anyone even try to use one and see if would work on them too? COULD it work for others and Chuck had no idea? I mean Sally could use the Deep Power Stones with Sonic, does that mean she could use them too since they are basically more powerful versions of them? This really raises a lot of questions here.

[E122Psi]

The question works in another logic as well. Why exactly did Chuck make the power rings compatible only with his then five year old nephew? Was this some other form of experimenting with his family?

 

Also on a side note Sally shouldn't win every argument EVER, "You're right as usual" why even bother question her authority if she's so perfect all the time? She was technically right about Ari after all, it's not like she ever trusted someone that others had suspicions of and had an ulterior motive...OH WAIT *looks at Griff*.

Technically Sonic wasn't even right about Griff either, since his dislike for him came solely from being in 'jealous asswipe' mode than harboring genuine suspicion over him. Considering how both of those stories turned out, it maybe makes sense Sally was more often the moral superior since writers seemed far more capable of making her such without turning her into a Designated Hero like Sonic.

 

Concerning the 'minus Antoine' part, I don't mind Antoine actually getting screentime, just give it more credibility than stuff like the shorts where it's rotated completely around him providing lame slapstick and proving what a complete loser he is. I actually wouldn't have minded seeing him with his sword like in the comics (even if maybe be more buffoonish with it).

[TheRedStranger]

It is a good question, I never really thought much about. I have always assumed Sonic was attune to this specific mystical force (a. form of chaos essence) that Chuck had somehow found to consubstantiate through some form of magi-tech.

More great stuff guys. Especially from Mike and E112.

Okay...I think what we have here is the classic law of...http://tvtropes.org/...utionOfNinjutsu. Now let's take out characters into account and think about how we would better divide up their strengths an weaknesses. Remember there is no such thing a all around smart person, skilled person, or strong person. There are multiple types of intelligence, skills, and strengths. So let's see how well you can do and creative you can be with the characters with this mind. Try to have them all compliment and contrast each other with their skill and attribute sets.

[Mike Arcade]

I always saw Game Guy and Warp Sonic to be similar, rather Twin Episodes. Sonic trusts someone that Sally doesn't and vice versa. Yes, Sonic was being a Jealous Ass when it came to Griff, still though I thought that Sonic should have been tipped off the way Griff was looking at The Power Ring. Maybe that's just me though, I can see where Sally's a bit in the moral right though she isn't perfect, after all Griff DID flirt with her enough to get to Knothole. Still, both Griff and Ari had good reasons for screwing them over, Sally was surprisingly forgiving towards Ari and didn't even look that mad. Makes me wonder if under his position would she ever do the same thing as irrational as it is to trust Robotnik.

 

I should have rephrased that, what I meant by "Minus Antoine" I meant that he should have gotten some screentime but not as much as he did in Season 2. The only reason why Rotor and Bunnie got the shaft during that Season was due to a producer not liking them, especially Rotor. I do have an idea on how Antoine could still be a coward with some slapstick and still kick some ass before he gets more nerve though, something like in between SatAM and Archie Sonic.

[Captain Sorzo]

I have always assumed Sonic was attune to this specific mystical force (a. form of chaos essence) that Chuck had somehow found to consubstantiate through some form of magi-tech.

 

That's more or less my opinion on the matter. He's connected to the supernatural one way or another, given his speed. Having Sonic be the only person capable of using the rings highlights the possibility that the supernatural force tied to his speed is the same as that which the rings and power stones harnessed.

[TheRedStranger]

 

 

This has been some excellent discussion.

 

Let's focus on Sonic's powers for a second. How would you balance him out (or have if you have written a Fan-Fic)?

 

I agree with the above idea, there's really no need to adjust him. If I want to play his powers down and not have them destroy the story, then I put him in a situation where his powers aren't of much use. You could also use one of the main ways you neuter a superhero: have the bad guy hold someone he/she loves hostage, so he has to come up with alternate and more ingenious ways of saving the day.

 

 

Yes. But showing every else as weak and him as strong all the time would be a bad idea. For one I'd like to see him in dire straights. He needs a kryptonite. Something that can slow him down.

[Captain Sorzo]

I like the idea of Sonic only being incredibly strong in short bursts, via Power Rings. He can take on a few SWATbots without them, but has to rely on them when dealing with large groups of enemies. This allows him to function in roles from scout to distraction to one-time-per-mission heavy damage dealer. Robotnik's infrastructure is so large and fortified that such things can't make a difference all on their own. Succeeding requires exploiting critical weaknesses, which in turn involves hacking and strategy (Sal), specialized hardware (Rotor), and allies capable of both holding their own in a fight and operating well independently (Bunnie).

 

I'm still not sure what to do with Antoine, though he won't be directly involved in my writings any time soon (yeah, yeah, "soon" and "my writings" don't belong in the same sentence, but that's beside the point). I'd like to explore strengths to his character that lie outside the war effort, perhaps having him play an important role in maintaining Knothole or preserving Mobian culture. I just want to show a character who can't help with the fighting to save his life, yet still manages to be valuable in his own way. Rotor doesn't fit that bill, since his technical prowess still aids the war effort indirectly and he can potentially pull his weight on missions when needed.

 

In the back of my head, I am toying with the idea of Sonic losing his speed permanently at some point far, far down the road. Not really a spoiler since, in the extremely unlikely event it did see the light of day, it'd probably be decades before I got to that point.