564 replies to this topic

[E122Psi]

What I mean is that Hurst's Robotnik seemed evil to a his own detriment, ie. it made him incompetent. He seemed the type of guy who would drop all his well timed plans just to drown a nearby kitten. Evil and competence are different things, which is where the Villain Ball comes in.

 

Season One Robotnik was incredibly ruthless, but he was also an unnerving because of how tactful he was, he was genre savvy enough to just shoot Sonic (something Season Two Robotnik repeatedly turned down to savor the torture, which always led to his failure) and could even stand to be slightly pragmatic if it benefited his goal, ie. he stole from Lazzar, but via smooth talking his servant, and didn't waste time rubbing salt into the wound to risk the plan. Robotnik was deadly because he had no restraints or conscience, but also because he was incredibly tactful.

 

I think it was the Season One depiction that also worked a lot better into his background, Robotnik was intended to shrewd enough to deceive an entire kingdom into thinking he was a good guy for a lengthy period of time, and was tactful enough to hold onto his reigns for an entire decade. As proven by instances such as Game Guy, Season Two Robotnik couldn't last so much as a day without revealing to one of his patsies he screwed him over for kicks and was making increasingly detrimental mistakes that make you wonder why it was taking so long for Sonic to get the better of him (notice how easily Sonic neutralized him in his lair in Sonic Conversation, was there any reason he didn't take him down at that point?). He was beginning to look incompetent because he had no restraint, which even when you're not a 'noble' villain, is necessary in terms of basic plotting and deception.

 

Add to that Satam Robotnik was more sinister, but he was still an egotist, and egotists thrive on attention and respect, even in a skewed way like forcing people to do so. It made sense in Season One, he applied sentience to some of his robots (along with his pet Cluck who seemed incredibly attached and dependent on him), the robians seemed more brainwashed civilians and he even had some slight lenience onto Snively that he actually was loyal and even to some degree looked up to him and thrived on his rare approval. In a way he seemed to value some form of life, but one completely stripped of all the unnecessary complexities that didn't revolve around himself. Season Two Robotnik's motives seemed basically to make him the only sentient life on earth, even Snively seemed despensible to this ultimately, despite as shown as instances such as Cry of the Wolf, his endless insistence for someone to praise him and his work. Robotnik does not seem someone who could last without some sort of life worshiping the ground he works on. 

 

While I know Satam Robotnik is a guy with no redeeming aspects and pure evil, he is still intended to be a character in a story, and his actions have to keep validity to this. There is more to a truly evil and effective villain than just kicking the dog non stop, and at times it felt like Hurst forgot that. I feel the vamped up treatment of robotocization was just another attempt at him making Robotnik look more vile, but not thinking how much suspension of disbelief could hold Chuck shrugging off the whole ordeal (which itself kinda undermines the point anyway since it makes the blow look like nothing).

[RedAuthar]

SatAM Robotnik's only character traits were being evil and having an awesome voice.  Sure he was way more intimidating than Eggman, but his only goal seemed to be "being evil".  

 

While this helped the story out by making him more dangerous and people didn't feel for him and felt more for the heroes, it also hurt the story because Robotnik wasn't a mystery.  He had no epic backstory, he had no long term goals, he had no real traits.  

 

Good villain SatAM Robotnik may be, but as a character he's probably the least impressive of the shows cast.  Now don't get me wrong, he's still better than a lot of villains we've seen in other shows, and we know more of Robotnik was to come forth in Season 3, but that doesn't really deny the fact that he needs some polish before he can become a truly great character.  

[TheRedStranger]

SatAM Robotnik's only character traits were being evil and having an awesome voice.  Sure he was way more intimidating than Eggman, but his only goal seemed to be "being evil".  

 

While this helped the story out by making him more dangerous and people didn't feel for him and felt more for the heroes, it also hurt the story because Robotnik wasn't a mystery.  He had no epic backstory, he had no long term goals, he had no real traits.  

 

Good villain SatAM Robotnik may be, but as a character he's probably the least impressive of the shows cast.  Now don't get me wrong, he's still better than a lot of villains we've seen in other shows, and we know more of Robotnik was to come forth in Season 3, but that doesn't really deny the fact that he needs some polish before he can become a truly great character.  

 

Oh yes, But the sad thing is that there was never a chance to delve that deep, and with executive meddling and the road blocks and constraints pressing in on the industry at that time. Satam is like the unsung hero that got cut down in his prime. It's depth and gravity were never fully expounded upon. In a way we are sort of blessed to have the show cut out of the hands of meddlers and the unimaginative commercialists. We can be the vanguard.

 

 When it comes to these things I think you can seperate the men from the nagging boys with this...your abilty to question in universe. How could a man become that twisted and evil? I already thought of this...and I delve deep in Robotnik's crazed pschye in EoT. Or how can Chuck swallow down all that truama. In EoT I show he really doesn't, but his background and backstory gives him a lot of strength and the abilty to think beyond himself for the sake of others. Where is your passion for possibility, gentleman (note I speak generally and to none specifically)? If you can't explain or improve such as you go along, then you really have no place to criticize in the first place. You all are either one of two things a part of the solution or part of the problem. What are you going to be? Maybe you can write the story that improves upon these things. Or maybe you just don't need to criticize because your criticism is not making anything better. Remember the nature of this thread. Satam Reconstructed. I am not asking to point fingers at the problem, I am asking to come up with solutions in universe. If you are too incompetant to do that, then you are too incompetant for criticism, for the whole goal of criticism is progressive improvement. What shall it be then? Give me answers, solutions...or go bicker elsewhere with other unproductive. The District of Columbia is calling thy names.

 

I will leave with the words of a wiseman:

 

 "Either you will stand by my side, or be crushed by my heel, either way you will not stand in my way...."

 

 So lets work with what we got shall we? Let's see what we can do with it.

 

 Now to specifically talk about WfM, Red. In liue of these issues , how do you desire depict Ole Robby Nik? 

[E122Psi]

To be fair, I did mention a positive comparison. I thought the development of Robotnik in Season One fit perfectly with the tone and story approach the show was aiming for. I did appreciate a couple of things Season Two added to the character (ie. giving him a bit more focus and even giving him slight charisma and comedic fluctuations) but I think, like a lot of issues with the season, they were streamlining too much.

 

Season One Robotnik worked great because he wasn't just evil, he was a guy who obsessed over robots, they were as he once put 'a work of art', and he could abide by even sentient droids so long as they fit the desired use of being loyal and pampering his ego constantly. He was a tactful, specifically motivated character, if maybe not exactly brimming with depth. Season Two Robotnik seemed a more generic Card Carrying Villain who just thrived on evil and whatever was worst for the world, even to his own detriment.

 

Some could argue there was some canonical explanation in that Robotnik was gradually becoming more unhinged and bent on crushing Sonic in Season Two, but even then a lot of it seemed to be Hurst's general demeanor for the character, as shown with his intended backstory for NICOLE.

[RedAuthar]

Avoiding Spoilers and stuff....

 

WfM Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik has a desire to rule the world based on a traumatic childhood where he was spurned from being the the "fat kid with the big brain" and his childhood hero being spurned for being "insane".  Declaring the rest of the world inferior to him because of their low intelligence, he seeks to "guide them" into growing and expanding, however because of his trauma, he forces down their throats rather than gently.   

 

My Robotnik is also a schemer and politician, getting to where he is through underhanded deals.  While he leads his Empire he also has many underlings that aren't robots to do his bidding as well.  He also uses the fear of Robotization versus actual Robotization to control people, desiring to control people rather than machines. 

[TheRedStranger]

To be fair, I did mention a positive comparison. I thought the development of Robotnik in Season One fit perfectly with the tone and story approach the show was aiming for. I did appreciate a couple of things Season Two added to the character (ie. giving him a bit more focus and even giving him slight charisma and comedic fluctuations) but I think, like a lot of issues with the season, they were streamlining too much.

 

Season One Robotnik worked great because he wasn't just evil, he was a guy who obsessed over robots, they were as he once put 'a work of art', and he could abide by even sentient droids so long as they fit the desired use of being loyal and pampering his ego constantly. He was a tactful, specifically motivated character, if maybe not exactly brimming with depth. Season Two Robotnik seemed a more generic Card Carrying Villain who just thrived on evil and whatever was worst for the world, even to his own detriment.

 

Some could argue there was some canonical explanation in that Robotnik was gradually becoming more unhinged and bent on crushing Sonic in Season Two, but even then a lot of it seemed to be Hurst's general demeanor for the character, as shown with his intended backstory for NICOLE.

 

I concur. I would also say that Sally and Sonic were oversimplifed as foils of each other. Though Blast to The Past and Drood Henge lead to some redemption (except Sonic thinking about Chili Dogs, but then again Sally knew better than to screw with time in the first place). 

 

 I think there "streamlining" was less about giving the story good pacing, instead it was more about oversimplifying as a sacrfice for a qippy narrative flow. But hey, at least it's not as the crappily rushed character arc for bad Anakin Skywalker: Obi Wan your my best friend - "He's jealous!" - Kills Sand people - Decapitaites a disarmed man - kills younglings - Obi-Wan pries him off his dying pregnant wife and kicks him in a volcano - "Becomes" Darth Vader - Ben Kenobi: "And he was good friend" (*record scratch*).

 

 And yes! Now you bring something good out. Robotnik is fixated with modernity and industry and a creepy transhumanist vision. He is what happens when you mix Stalin's Five Year Plans of industry and Hitler's eugenics movement. That is truly frightening villan  and says something for it's viewers. I can accept the concept of him growing more unstable (the infamous red-button scene) but it does become a bit Flanderized. But that could be fixed and balanced out as time goes on.

 

We should discuss Nicole. I for one do not like Hurst's idea about Nicole all that much. I could see it going wonky quick. But let's see what we can do with it.

[Captain Sorzo]

 Decapitaites a disarmed man

 

To be fair, Dooku was not only a war criminal whose actions helped result in the deaths of billions, but a Sith Lord, someone capable of killing others with a mere thought. Barring imprisonment in an environment with ysalamiri, creatures that weren't even known to the galactic community at the time, such an individual is never truly helpless.

 

I'm still not sure how to convey why I feel SatAM Robotnik is such a brilliant character. Not that I have time right now anyway. The ol' procrastination is starting to bite back in a painful way.

[TheRedStranger]

 And when Anakin became his judge, jury, and executioner he became thrice the nightmare...you are also forgetting one big thing in universe (but we will bring this conversation over here: http://sonicsatam.co...k about&page=4 .

 

 We will fix this taking away your ponies, adoral, and the threat of Roboticization.... Progress must be made! *Swatbots encircle your abode.*

[Captain Sorzo]

I can tell you though the other day I was watching Warp Sonic again and was disgusted by the exchange between Sonic and Sally whilst Griff nicked the power stone. Some of the things Sally said to Sonic were beyond "light teasing" to make him jealous and were flat-out hurtful; if I was Sonic in that situation I might have walked out and said "have a nice life." In my opinion Sally went well over the line with the man who had saved her life on countless occasions whilst the other guy (Griff) commits not only thievery and treason, but sabotages their war effort. All I can say is after Sonic came back from saving Lower Mobius and recovering the power stone Sally had some major apologizing to do.

 

I just rewatched that scene and found nothing out of the ordinary. The banter was very much in line with that of other episodes, such as the start of Ultra Sonic. Also bear in mind that her own best friend had just humiliated her by making a fool of himself in front of their host. While Sally went too far in attempting to spite Sonic (one of several failures that her detractors frequently overlook when playing the Mary Sue card), her annoyance was understandable.

 

 

\We will fix this taking away your ponies, adoral, and the threat of Roboticization.... Progress must be made! *Swatbots encircle your abode.*

 

You're just jealous.

[Captain Sorzo]

Sally doesn't flirt with Griff at all until after Sonic barges in and embarrasses her. Griff flirts with her and she makes a polite comment or two out of diplomacy's sake, but she doesn't have much of a chance to so much as say that she's taken.

[Captain Sorzo]

I think Sally took offense at Sonic's choice of words. Saying "you're my girl" implies a sort of possessiveness, as if Sally is defined chiefly by her connection to Sonic. While I'm sure that's not what Sonic meant, that's how it comes across to me.

 

Of course, this is coming from someone who hasn't had a single romantic relationship in his life, so I'll admit to not being privy to the nuances of such things.

[TheRedStranger]

I think Sally took offense at Sonic's choice of words. Saying "you're my girl" implies a sort of possessiveness, as if Sally is defined chiefly by her connection to Sonic. While I'm sure that's not what Sonic meant, that's how it comes across to me.

 

Of course, this is coming from someone who hasn't had a single romantic relationship in his life, so I'll admit to not being privy to the nuances of such things.

 

Or poor Sonic doesn't realize there are other fish in the sea. :-

 

Yeah Bytor's a married man. And, well, I'm no stranger to the dramas of love (boy, do I have stories )... Trust him on this, amigo. 

 

Imagine it this way... One of your parents treat you the way Sally treated Sonic with another kid, treating them like their child and scorning you...

[E122Psi]

I admit while Season Two went the Flanderization route, they didn't quite have the extremities Season One had. Season One was a bit more ambitious trying different facets and lights on the cast, some were good (eg. Sally having more developed flawed moments, Antoine having clearer redeeming aspects, Rotor getting more spotlight) some weren't as good.

 

I did notice that by the ending points of Season Two some elements were starting to get looked into again (eg. Drood Henge, Spy Hog revert to a lot old traditions in Season One, Bunnie and Rotor are used again, Robotnik is more genre savvy, Sally seems more fallible and Ant isn't complete useless) suggesting as time passed Hurst maybe was starting to notice some of his shortcomings and trying to be more versatile with the cast and bring back hidden depths, even if plans like NICOLE's backstory suggest he would still have odd rocky points.

 

I wasn't quite sure how to take Warp Sonic, though for some reason I sided with Sally a bit more, maybe because Sonic came off a bit of a Designated Hero in the end, he was never mistrustful of Griff, he was just being a jealous asshole. Season Two overdid the 'Sally is always right' formula, but they at least made sure she was the genuine moral superior. Also the whole 'you're MY girl' thing does sound a lot like a possessive jock (I'm guessing they weren't a couple at that point, there were kissing scenes, but Sal affectionately kisses anyone Antoine to Rotor).I do kinda like instances of them both being as bad as each other however, I kinda wished they'd played with that more as well (as mentioned both represent opposite extremes, one can be right or wrong, or they can both be so bull headed about neither is any good).

 

Truth be told, Sonic suddenly becoming Griff's worst enemy over such a subtle moment seemed a bit irratic, especially since he seemed pretty damn pally before hand.

 

While Season Two made Sonic more consistently obnoxious, I admit Season One had some of his truly lowest points. Him genuinely wanting to leave Antoine for dead in 'Hooked On Sonics' also rubbed me the wrong way (Ant was a jerk to Sonic that episode, but at least he had limits and was genuinely mortified when the Shredder almost got him). That just comes off as WAY too vindictive for Sonic, who despite his flaws, still represents freedom and justice.

 

 

I just rewatched that scene and found nothing out of the ordinary. The banter was very much in line with that of other episodes, such as the start of Ultra Sonic. Also bear in mind that her own best friend had just humiliated her by making a fool of himself in front of their host. While Sally went too far in attempting to spite Sonic (one of several failures that her detractors frequently overlook when playing the Mary Sue card), her annoyance was understandable.

 

I don't think it's that she doesn't have any failures that causes the problems but more the fact that, especially in the comics, Sally's flawed moments aren't really met with repercussions, she rarely gets called out or made to look like a fool for what she's done, which takes from the point of humanizing her, compared to Sonic who usually Can't Get Away With Nuthin. The recent comics have only subverted this due to directly trying to get rid of this complaint after so long, and even they only do it for intentional cases and there still seems odd moments of self righteousness or irrationality that get overlooked in the narrative.

 

While the show wasn't as bad, as mentioned we can only assume she swallowed her pride after Sonic, there was nothing to say directly she had learned anything from her actions (though to balance it neither had Sonic really). I do agree I liked the times Sally was over competitive with Sonic, as I think it emphasized their contrasts with a light rivalry, it's just that a lot of times (especially in Season Two) Sally at her very worst was only Rightly Self Righteous and still ultimately the one in the right.

 

A Mary Sue isn't just someone who has no flaws, it's someone whose flaws are treated as unimportant and has the narrative skewed to always put them in a positive light. Granted I'm still not quite convinced Sal qualifies as one, but still writers seem to recurringly have problems making her a naturally flawed character.

[TheRedStranger]

As a person who has been a leader in many situations and positions, I can tell you are the biggest servant of them all. And you are the first to get chewed out for what happens in your ranks. Sally would indeed realistically feel the brunt of her actions a lot more than portrayed and she would be the first to blame when things went south. Sun Tzu says in his Art of War "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." Leaders get the shaft first an foremost, they orchestrate, the compose, of an endevour is the one who ultimately shapes it's outcome and the one who reaps the most consequence. 

 

 People would also blame some of the things Sonic does on Sally as well, for she is supposed to keep him in check as well everything else. This not that she is somehow magically superior to Sonic (no one is Superior to anyone, especially in morals...we all have sinned and fallen short. And one mistake is enough to be counted as such). 

 

 Realistically Sall should probably have some coping mechanisms (compressed vices) and tempermental as she is frayed with stress of being, for all intensive purposes, a General at the age of 16.

[Captain Sorzo]

I don't think it's that she doesn't have any failures that causes the problems but more the fact that, especially in the comics, Sally's flawed moments aren't really met with repercussions, she rarely gets called out or made to look like a fool for what she's done, which takes from the point of humanizing her, compared to Sonic who usually Can't Get Away With Nuthin. The recent comics have only subverted this due to directly trying to get rid of this complaint after so long, and even they only do it for intentional cases and there still seems odd moments of self righteousness or irrationality that get overlooked in the narrative.

 

While the show wasn't as bad, as mentioned we can only assume she swallowed her pride after Sonic, there was nothing to say directly she had learned anything from her actions (though to balance it neither had Sonic really). I do agree I liked the times Sally was over competitive with Sonic, as I think it emphasized their contrasts with a light rivalry, it's just that a lot of times (especially in Season Two) Sally at her very worst was only Rightly Self Righteous and still ultimately the one in the right.

 

A Mary Sue isn't just someone who has no flaws, it's someone whose flaws are treated as unimportant and has the narrative skewed to always put them in a positive light. Granted I'm still not quite convinced Sal qualifies as one, but still writers seem to recurringly have problems making her a naturally flawed character.

 

I wasn't referring to people like you. While I don't always agree with your arguments, they're clearly well thought out and don't come across as being overly biased. I was referring to Sally's haters, specifically the people who seem to condemn her for no other reason than that she isn't in the games or that she gets in the way of their precious SonAmy pairing and then throw the Mary Sue buzzword around in an attempt to validate their position without so much as citing a single example. For all their sound and fury, their posts never actually contain substantial analyses.

[TheRedStranger]

Big Robot/Robian in the intro...what was that?

[Uncle Ben]

i think its an average size Mobian, just close to give a dramitic effect.

[Uncle Ben]

Also the Mobian is a fox... perhaps it could have a connection to Tails?

[RedAuthar]

....I don't think it was supposed to be big.  I think it was just supposed to be "Closer to the screen".

[E122Psi]

Also the Mobian is a fox... perhaps it could have a connection to Tails?

It is kinda creepy how similar that thing looked to Tails. In fact that rung a bell immediately when I first saw the show (and probably would have assumed it was him if not for his genuine split second appearance at the end of intro).