Well, I never thought i'd say this, being a die-hard SatAM/archie fan, but i'm losing faith in the writers Archie is picking to lead the pack. If things don't improve by issue 201, i'm bailing from this sinking ship. There are several terrible issues with the comic, and it can be salvaged, but it requires the boldness and innovative vision of a writer willing to completely erase some things, and the time to do it.
Archie's problems are listed below:
- God-modding villains that "cannot" be defeated (Mammoth Mogul)
- Whiney emo-goth tomboy princess trying to steal the show (Princess Sally Acorn)
- Titular hero whose contributions are overlooked or outright ignored by the entire cast and even the writers (Sonic the Hedgehog)
- Storylines that suffer from "DragonBall Z Syndrome" (takes 30 issues to go somewhere, when say...3 would have easily sufficed).
- Storylines that have random and short "manfights" as a sort of fan-service for those wanting to see "Sonic Vs. Enerjak" or "Sonic Vs. Mogul", meanwhile we learn nothing and get nothing out of them, as they contribute little if any to the storyline, and have no inter-character dynamics.
- The cast is too large, with too much emphasis placed on minor characters (or new ones), and older, established characters are either forgotten, killed off, or reduced in role.
- The scope of the comic is too large. It's all-encompassing becuase it tries to be everything sonic to everyone. This is not entirely the comic's fault, as Sonic is just too diverse of a fandom to be narrowed down to any one thing.
- Destroying Mobotropolis (issue 114), and Knothole (174, Free Comic Book Day 2007, 175, 176) would have been unthinkable to a "Classic Era" (issues 30-78) reader, as they are fundamental to the comics' storyline.
- Eggman having been reduced to an incompetent nothing who's addicted to making little electrical gadgets.
I can also understand that previous writers wanted to merge everything together, much like how Sonic the Comic did in england, but StC had something archie never did: insanely talented writers. Archie's attempts were valliant, but disastrous.
Now that we have identified the MAIN problems, we can begin working on potential solutions to them. My ideas to fix the comic are stated below.
- Make everything from issue 134 onward a terribly-written nightmare sequence, with sonic waking up with his friends asking him how he felt. I know this would be extremely drastic, and would basically nullify 2 years of work, but it would repair this potto..er... plothole-filled storyline.
- fire ian plotho-- Potto, rather... replace him with either Ken Penders or Karl Bollers. either would be light-years better than potto.
- I know this one will sound cruel, but it should be done: kill off all the un-needed/minor cast members. an over-populated and underused cast is a sign of a comic desperate to attract new readers. it's also the same with the games that have a few new characters but don't use older ones. USE THE CHARACTERS YOU ALREADY HAVE!
- Completely wipeout all but the most critical areas. Cat country? station square? i don't remember these.... make it just about the old sonic games (sonic 1-sonic 3D blast), and SatAM, as those are its roots. too many places is also a bad thing.
- The "back in the day" backstories about how the freedom fighters formed were great, and they brought back the original theme and feel of the comics. Perhaps more satAM-era stories? the "campfire tales" (72-81) stories were addictive and could hold their own as a super special (along with Mobius: 25 Years Later).
- More emphasis on the core characters, PARTICULARLY SONIC. It's not called "a whiney emo princess and her friends fighting an unbeatable enemy, and oh... there's sonic, too....", it's called "Sonic the Hedgehog". Fix sally's attitude immediately. She is completely out-of-character, wanting sonic to settle down and act as a prince. that WILL NOT HAPPEN. There's a reason why Mobius: 25 Years Later was called a "hypothetical" future.
- Give the new writer 13 issues (one year) to completely undo the changes that were brought up since issue 134.
- KILL MAMMOTH MOGUL ALREADY
- Bring back Ixis Naugus. He was the perfect villain after Robotnik Prime (the one that died in issue 50).
- Either make Robo-Robotnik/Eggman a serious contender/rival/threat to sonic, or scrap him, too. Having him act immature, stupid, and incompetent is just sad, and i mean "pathetic" sad.
Alternately, end the comic at issue 201. If it is suffering, and if you refuse to treat it or cure it, then put it down already and end its misery.
It's such a shame that something that was partially-based on SatAM has come to this. I may be wrong, but i consider archie's comics as a direct continuation of SatAM (at least, from issue 30 onwards).
However, my opinions do have a slight bias for these reasons: I love SatAM to little bits, and my favourite era of the comics were 30-78 (basically, the "Classic" era..the "Continuation of the atmosphere of SatAM"...). I also love the older video games, which were closely related to the comics, so... maybe it's nostalgia... maybe it's the tastes of the audiences changing, with me remaining my same old self... or maybe i'm just stuck in 1997.
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How to Save Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie)
Started by
Guest_RingtailedFox_*
, Jun 09 2008 08:32 PM
33 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_kayona-kim_*
Guest_kayona-kim_*
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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:26 PM
Emo-goth? LMAO how? I've seen her be whiny and bitchy, but emo-GOTH?
"wanting sonic to settle down and act as a prince"
I don't think that's been brought up for a looooong time between them. Is that still happening in the comic or did you just bring up something outdated?
I don't like all of Ian's stories, and no one can expect me to. but I definitely like his work a lot more than Penders and Karl (Penders was good in the beginning though). I guess I'm one of the only people here who doesn't hate the comic's current state to bits.
"wanting sonic to settle down and act as a prince"
I don't think that's been brought up for a looooong time between them. Is that still happening in the comic or did you just bring up something outdated?
I don't like all of Ian's stories, and no one can expect me to. but I definitely like his work a lot more than Penders and Karl (Penders was good in the beginning though). I guess I'm one of the only people here who doesn't hate the comic's current state to bits.
#3
Guest_Miko_*
Guest_Miko_*
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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:46 PM
It'd be a lot to ask for in regards to 134 being a dream sequence IMO. I think they should simply work at salvaging what they have.
Some ideas to consider perhaps:
-In the past Sonic is a character who hates oppression of any kind. This is probably the ONE aspect of Sonic that we can say runs true in every verse of Sonic the hedgehog. So this isn't a matter of me paying particular homage to any specific verse when I say this. One of the biggest problems today is that there isn't a status quo that really makes Sonic's character stand out among the rest of the crowd of characters. He hates oppression and loves freedom, so a plot that's particularly at odds with that would naturally help for Sonic's personality and who HE is to stand out more. Ever since the kingdom formally reestablished itself, the actual threat to freedom and the conflict that really makes Sonic's identity stand out has been watered down. Sonic is now a fast paced load of "witty" one liners and nothing more. This is interestingly enough when people began to notice the overall decline in the series.
-Serious work needs to be invested in making Sonic, Knuckles and Tails more interesting for a change. They just engage in manfights with poor attempts at being cocky and cool with their comeback of the month as they're fighting. Can we make their personalities ENGAGING for viewers? I think like Sonic Tails and Knuckles need to work out a theme of their own regarding their stories. Sonic's not going to be hauling in every single fan. So if Tails (and more especially Knux) are going to take comic space, they need to DO something.
- The adventures mean nothing. Zip. Who is the story? Sonic is the story. Why are these adventures important to Sonic. Giving him something to fight is not a decent enough answer. There needs to be a greater effort in making these stories impact Sonic on a much deeper level.
-For goodness sake if it's one thing the writers at SEGA had gotten right it's the fact that they have no problem allowing people to draw their own conclusions to pairings. It's interesting to note how no one in the games is formally paired off. Leave the major pairings open for interpretation which means all the girls are single and Sonic is not paying particular mind to any of them beyond a very close friendship. If people want to interpret the pairings farther, that's their bussiness. If someone wants Sonic to be with Sally, Mina or Amy, fine. Writers need not ruin the story for people by shoving their views of who Sonic should love on everyone when it's unnecessary. No one loses, we all can still envision pairings of our choice.
-I think the overemphasis on Sonic and Sally's relationship (romantic or platonically speaking) is something that needs to stop. I'm not saying this as a shipper. Its gotten to the point where Sonic's relationship to Tails (His supposed BEST FRIEND) is often undermined. Tails, Bunnie, Antoine, Rotor Amy and Mina all seem like tag-along friends (or strictly combat partners) these days because the comics are far too engrossed in it's shipper fantasies. They don't see, to realize we have OTHER characters who need their dynamics with Sonic expanded upon more. The comic is too involved in making sure we know every little thing Sally does or when Sonic has woes related to her. When Tails went missing in the 90s that was almost ENTIRELY ignored. Oh but let's focus on whenever Sally's MIA. Why don't we try capturing moments when Sonic thinks about or spends meaningful time with his other friends?
-STOP bringing everybody's families back. One of the attractions surrounding the FFs as a unit were that they opperated as a surrogate family for one another. Bringing back the parents destroys the impact of war and unnecessarily impedes on the main dynamics of the series. Chuck was one thing but Bernie? Jules? Rosemary? Amadeus? Rotor's herd? Come on. They were going good killing of D'Coolete. Just a few more to go...
-most of Sonic's friends are only being casted as "plot devices" when they need to work more at being "supporting characters." They need to be able to trigger some form of development or establishement for Sonic. I'm tired of them only contributing nothing but fight scenes to the comic.
-Get something for Sally to do and KEEP her in character doing it. Most importantly decide whether she's going to remain someone who level headed thinks ahead, or someone who becomes impulsive. They need to work out the consequences each decision would have and try to find something for her to do with that in mind. Also be mindful of what each decision would do to her dynamic with Sonic. Stop trying to make Sally everything because she's becoming a friggin' Mary-Sue.
- Replace a couple of the existing FFs that lack potential, while providing a way to incorporate Sally on occassion. Perhaps we won't see her every issue but it's better that way. We have so many other friends of Sonic's that can contribute noting because this comic has become little more than Sonic and his relationship with Sally. If the time spent on Sonic and Sally's dynamic were leveled out so all of Sonic's friends had a greater purpose to his story we'd find Sally taking the back seat anyway.
-If they're not going to bring back a status quo similar to SatAM they need to disband the FFs. It's just not working. They were a unit that complimented an atmosphere that's just not here right now.
-Break up Bunnie and Antoine: One of the problems with Bunnie/Antoine going as far as marriage this soon or even that they got back together, is that Bunnie's theme was being image conscious and having to learn to go beyond the standard concepts of beauty. To learn to to love herself for who she is. This theme that could easily reel in a lot of female viewers is resolved far too quickly. However Antoine's acceptance of Bunnie has also watered down the conflict. Bunnie's been claiming an impact being a robian has had an impact on her, but Archie has historically done a poor job emphasizing it (probably because they're always too busy giving Sonic and Sally a love triangle or relationship woe). It'd be interesting if Bunnie were more of Amy's mentor instead of Julie-su, given how superficial Amy can be at times. I wouldn't doubt Amy could contribute something to the dynamic too.
If the older characters lack potential to be supporting characters I don't mind a reduction in role. But I think that quite a few of them could be contributing and are just not being given the chance they deserve.
-Stop killing low tier characters they could simply ignore. It's the higher tier that is saturated and in need of releif. People will actually care more if characters higher up in the system die anyway.
-Ian needs to stop killing off characters for the sake of drama. Especially when no one cares about them to even feel a sense of loss like the characters still alive. The goal is to make the reader share that characters feelings. This is almost NEVER done by simply expecting the reader to take in the characters' emotions. Usually the sense of loss felt by the reader is due to the loss that character means to their overall enjoyment of the series. More often then not, readers identify with the emotions of the characters for different reasons. This is why Ian's method of provoking drama doesn't work IMO.
Note: This is also why people get nowhere in pairing wars. For instance, saying Antoine should be with Bunnie because they love each other doesn't consider the fact that the reader may not feel any enjoyment out of the pairing. In contrast they may feel Bunnie for could be more enjoyable if she weren't with him.
-No more ___ problem was handled off panel, and no more blatant disregard for obstacles put in place for characters.
Some ideas to consider perhaps:
-In the past Sonic is a character who hates oppression of any kind. This is probably the ONE aspect of Sonic that we can say runs true in every verse of Sonic the hedgehog. So this isn't a matter of me paying particular homage to any specific verse when I say this. One of the biggest problems today is that there isn't a status quo that really makes Sonic's character stand out among the rest of the crowd of characters. He hates oppression and loves freedom, so a plot that's particularly at odds with that would naturally help for Sonic's personality and who HE is to stand out more. Ever since the kingdom formally reestablished itself, the actual threat to freedom and the conflict that really makes Sonic's identity stand out has been watered down. Sonic is now a fast paced load of "witty" one liners and nothing more. This is interestingly enough when people began to notice the overall decline in the series.
-Serious work needs to be invested in making Sonic, Knuckles and Tails more interesting for a change. They just engage in manfights with poor attempts at being cocky and cool with their comeback of the month as they're fighting. Can we make their personalities ENGAGING for viewers? I think like Sonic Tails and Knuckles need to work out a theme of their own regarding their stories. Sonic's not going to be hauling in every single fan. So if Tails (and more especially Knux) are going to take comic space, they need to DO something.
- The adventures mean nothing. Zip. Who is the story? Sonic is the story. Why are these adventures important to Sonic. Giving him something to fight is not a decent enough answer. There needs to be a greater effort in making these stories impact Sonic on a much deeper level.
-For goodness sake if it's one thing the writers at SEGA had gotten right it's the fact that they have no problem allowing people to draw their own conclusions to pairings. It's interesting to note how no one in the games is formally paired off. Leave the major pairings open for interpretation which means all the girls are single and Sonic is not paying particular mind to any of them beyond a very close friendship. If people want to interpret the pairings farther, that's their bussiness. If someone wants Sonic to be with Sally, Mina or Amy, fine. Writers need not ruin the story for people by shoving their views of who Sonic should love on everyone when it's unnecessary. No one loses, we all can still envision pairings of our choice.
-I think the overemphasis on Sonic and Sally's relationship (romantic or platonically speaking) is something that needs to stop. I'm not saying this as a shipper. Its gotten to the point where Sonic's relationship to Tails (His supposed BEST FRIEND) is often undermined. Tails, Bunnie, Antoine, Rotor Amy and Mina all seem like tag-along friends (or strictly combat partners) these days because the comics are far too engrossed in it's shipper fantasies. They don't see, to realize we have OTHER characters who need their dynamics with Sonic expanded upon more. The comic is too involved in making sure we know every little thing Sally does or when Sonic has woes related to her. When Tails went missing in the 90s that was almost ENTIRELY ignored. Oh but let's focus on whenever Sally's MIA. Why don't we try capturing moments when Sonic thinks about or spends meaningful time with his other friends?
-STOP bringing everybody's families back. One of the attractions surrounding the FFs as a unit were that they opperated as a surrogate family for one another. Bringing back the parents destroys the impact of war and unnecessarily impedes on the main dynamics of the series. Chuck was one thing but Bernie? Jules? Rosemary? Amadeus? Rotor's herd? Come on. They were going good killing of D'Coolete. Just a few more to go...
-most of Sonic's friends are only being casted as "plot devices" when they need to work more at being "supporting characters." They need to be able to trigger some form of development or establishement for Sonic. I'm tired of them only contributing nothing but fight scenes to the comic.
-Get something for Sally to do and KEEP her in character doing it. Most importantly decide whether she's going to remain someone who level headed thinks ahead, or someone who becomes impulsive. They need to work out the consequences each decision would have and try to find something for her to do with that in mind. Also be mindful of what each decision would do to her dynamic with Sonic. Stop trying to make Sally everything because she's becoming a friggin' Mary-Sue.
- Replace a couple of the existing FFs that lack potential, while providing a way to incorporate Sally on occassion. Perhaps we won't see her every issue but it's better that way. We have so many other friends of Sonic's that can contribute noting because this comic has become little more than Sonic and his relationship with Sally. If the time spent on Sonic and Sally's dynamic were leveled out so all of Sonic's friends had a greater purpose to his story we'd find Sally taking the back seat anyway.
-If they're not going to bring back a status quo similar to SatAM they need to disband the FFs. It's just not working. They were a unit that complimented an atmosphere that's just not here right now.
-Break up Bunnie and Antoine: One of the problems with Bunnie/Antoine going as far as marriage this soon or even that they got back together, is that Bunnie's theme was being image conscious and having to learn to go beyond the standard concepts of beauty. To learn to to love herself for who she is. This theme that could easily reel in a lot of female viewers is resolved far too quickly. However Antoine's acceptance of Bunnie has also watered down the conflict. Bunnie's been claiming an impact being a robian has had an impact on her, but Archie has historically done a poor job emphasizing it (probably because they're always too busy giving Sonic and Sally a love triangle or relationship woe). It'd be interesting if Bunnie were more of Amy's mentor instead of Julie-su, given how superficial Amy can be at times. I wouldn't doubt Amy could contribute something to the dynamic too.
QUOTE
- The cast is too large, with too much emphasis placed on minor characters (or new ones), and older, established characters are either forgotten, killed off, or reduced in role.
If the older characters lack potential to be supporting characters I don't mind a reduction in role. But I think that quite a few of them could be contributing and are just not being given the chance they deserve.
-Stop killing low tier characters they could simply ignore. It's the higher tier that is saturated and in need of releif. People will actually care more if characters higher up in the system die anyway.
-Ian needs to stop killing off characters for the sake of drama. Especially when no one cares about them to even feel a sense of loss like the characters still alive. The goal is to make the reader share that characters feelings. This is almost NEVER done by simply expecting the reader to take in the characters' emotions. Usually the sense of loss felt by the reader is due to the loss that character means to their overall enjoyment of the series. More often then not, readers identify with the emotions of the characters for different reasons. This is why Ian's method of provoking drama doesn't work IMO.
Note: This is also why people get nowhere in pairing wars. For instance, saying Antoine should be with Bunnie because they love each other doesn't consider the fact that the reader may not feel any enjoyment out of the pairing. In contrast they may feel Bunnie for could be more enjoyable if she weren't with him.
-No more ___ problem was handled off panel, and no more blatant disregard for obstacles put in place for characters.
#4
Guest_Shorty_*
Guest_Shorty_*
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- GUESTS
Posted 10 June 2008 - 03:17 AM
Um.. Let's see...
1) Disband the Knothole Freedom Fighters. I'm not hating on SatAM when I say this either, but they've lost the allure that makes the concept interesting-- they went from ragtag rebels to what? Some complex government agency? I'm sorry, that may be Rouge's style but it doesn't feel very Sonic and it doesn't look like they're going to go back to the SatAM roots. Plus, the FF group is being used as a caste system that only gives leway for people to write in who they want while kicking other characters out. If they were to disband, I don't think I'd see the point in people complaining about issues like Sally being in a palace or whatever and it allows the characters who can actually EXPAND on the main character time to do so without obstacles barring them like a Freedom Fighter group they don't belong in. Let Sonic just be a freelance adventurer. Anyone who can contribute to his adventures and help develop him and the story can be welcome to join it.
2) Sally. Just send her back to the palace, beause its not even in character for her to be out there. She's still heir aparent and will be the queen when Elias steps down so I don't know how the hell Ian came to the idea that just because a new king comes she's free to go haul her ass on the front lines. Plus, even if it were in character where the heck are her parents? Why aren't they drilling any sense into her like they did the last two times she tried making wreckless decisions.
The only reason fans want Sally as a Freedom Fighter is because if she isn't then she won't be seen as much. Sally is a prime example of what happens when the Freedom Fighter tier system doesn't go the way some people want it. If its gotten rid of, Sally could easily have have adventures with Sonic and the others, only this time they aren't pre-meditated. For instance, many if not most of Mario's adventures weren't things he actually premeditated in doing. The formula for his stories, and to a degree Princess Peach's (if she's more than just a hostage), is that he's dragged into a situation where he has to take action. This formula minus the Freedom Fighter tier may get her a good amount of stories... maybe not as many as she used to have, but if other characters are in need of development, that'd be a given anyway.
3) More focus on people who actually CONTRIBUTE to Sonic. Another problem that I think I have with the Freedom Fighters still existing is that characters are being placed value based on what superficial abilities they have on a battlefeild and not to Sonic as a character. Those who have a role to Sonic other than a "generic friend" should probably get more screentime.
Its hard enough for Ian to just write the triple threat beyond the scale mediocre, so if a character can expand and make a dynamic with Sonic that establishes/develops something interest (something supporting characters are SUPPOSED to do anyway) they need to be considered on the top tier first. Yes, oldbies going to want the SatAM characters and the new additions will probably want game cast members. Either way, the way I see it, the fanbase is going to have to give and take so they may as well make a system that benefits the comic as a whole and not just one fraction of the fanbase. The comic is about SONIC. Those who contribute to him should come first, not a fanservice.
5) The adventures need to actually have some relevance to the characters. Making stories too plotty and action-oriented (see: DBZ Syndrome) makes it so that the characters are so underdeveloped that they're not even interesting enough to keep reading about, let alone see fight.
6) More substance please. Ian needs to stop rushing events, especially emotional ones that Sonic and his friends may have. Maybe it'll take more panels and issues but I'd rather have an extra one or two issues to a story that was well-written than one or two parter ridden in crass.
7) Make Eggman have more competant plots. I'm sick of Mogul Godmodding every issue. Oh, And for love of God, STOP making the professional characters like the royals, counsil, president, Sally, Shadow etc. reffer to him as "Eggman" when is not even his real name. Its unprofessional, OOC and just sounds....stupid.
Miko practically summed up everything else I hadn't added an extra to cents to, so I'm not going to inflate this post anymore.
..Speaking of emo-Sally, omg I was actually GOING to draw that before you brought her up!
1) Disband the Knothole Freedom Fighters. I'm not hating on SatAM when I say this either, but they've lost the allure that makes the concept interesting-- they went from ragtag rebels to what? Some complex government agency? I'm sorry, that may be Rouge's style but it doesn't feel very Sonic and it doesn't look like they're going to go back to the SatAM roots. Plus, the FF group is being used as a caste system that only gives leway for people to write in who they want while kicking other characters out. If they were to disband, I don't think I'd see the point in people complaining about issues like Sally being in a palace or whatever and it allows the characters who can actually EXPAND on the main character time to do so without obstacles barring them like a Freedom Fighter group they don't belong in. Let Sonic just be a freelance adventurer. Anyone who can contribute to his adventures and help develop him and the story can be welcome to join it.
2) Sally. Just send her back to the palace, beause its not even in character for her to be out there. She's still heir aparent and will be the queen when Elias steps down so I don't know how the hell Ian came to the idea that just because a new king comes she's free to go haul her ass on the front lines. Plus, even if it were in character where the heck are her parents? Why aren't they drilling any sense into her like they did the last two times she tried making wreckless decisions.
The only reason fans want Sally as a Freedom Fighter is because if she isn't then she won't be seen as much. Sally is a prime example of what happens when the Freedom Fighter tier system doesn't go the way some people want it. If its gotten rid of, Sally could easily have have adventures with Sonic and the others, only this time they aren't pre-meditated. For instance, many if not most of Mario's adventures weren't things he actually premeditated in doing. The formula for his stories, and to a degree Princess Peach's (if she's more than just a hostage), is that he's dragged into a situation where he has to take action. This formula minus the Freedom Fighter tier may get her a good amount of stories... maybe not as many as she used to have, but if other characters are in need of development, that'd be a given anyway.
3) More focus on people who actually CONTRIBUTE to Sonic. Another problem that I think I have with the Freedom Fighters still existing is that characters are being placed value based on what superficial abilities they have on a battlefeild and not to Sonic as a character. Those who have a role to Sonic other than a "generic friend" should probably get more screentime.
Its hard enough for Ian to just write the triple threat beyond the scale mediocre, so if a character can expand and make a dynamic with Sonic that establishes/develops something interest (something supporting characters are SUPPOSED to do anyway) they need to be considered on the top tier first. Yes, oldbies going to want the SatAM characters and the new additions will probably want game cast members. Either way, the way I see it, the fanbase is going to have to give and take so they may as well make a system that benefits the comic as a whole and not just one fraction of the fanbase. The comic is about SONIC. Those who contribute to him should come first, not a fanservice.
5) The adventures need to actually have some relevance to the characters. Making stories too plotty and action-oriented (see: DBZ Syndrome) makes it so that the characters are so underdeveloped that they're not even interesting enough to keep reading about, let alone see fight.
6) More substance please. Ian needs to stop rushing events, especially emotional ones that Sonic and his friends may have. Maybe it'll take more panels and issues but I'd rather have an extra one or two issues to a story that was well-written than one or two parter ridden in crass.
7) Make Eggman have more competant plots. I'm sick of Mogul Godmodding every issue. Oh, And for love of God, STOP making the professional characters like the royals, counsil, president, Sally, Shadow etc. reffer to him as "Eggman" when is not even his real name. Its unprofessional, OOC and just sounds....stupid.
Miko practically summed up everything else I hadn't added an extra to cents to, so I'm not going to inflate this post anymore.
..Speaking of emo-Sally, omg I was actually GOING to draw that before you brought her up!
#5
Lord Exor
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Evil Incarnate
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Posted 10 June 2008 - 08:13 AM
Ah, but 'Eggman' is his real name. That nitwit identifies both himself and his abysmal excuse for an empire as such.
#6
Guest_RingtailedFox_*
Guest_RingtailedFox_*
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Posted 10 June 2008 - 08:19 AM
That's more of the stupidity on sonic team and the writers than the characters. It's related to my "Why Sonic is Failing" theory.
#7
Guest_Miko_*
Guest_Miko_*
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Posted 10 June 2008 - 08:42 AM
Cultural conflict. Eggman is a cutesy name and appeals to eastern aesthetics for "cuteness" (or perhaps Japan's more specifically). We don't share the same value for cuteness in our culture, so naming a villian something cute, and making him incompetent to add to his cuteness in theory destroys Sonic. They're the ones who've defined him as free loving. So the natural conflict would be a serious threat to freedom. They got it right in Sonic 1 and 2 so there's no acting like this concept's never hit them. By working to make Robotnik cuter to appeal to Japanese (who've never liked him) the whole theme surrounding Sonic, and the actual conflict surrounding the subject of freedom has been marred in the process.
#8
Guest_RingtailedFox_*
Guest_RingtailedFox_*
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Posted 10 June 2008 - 03:57 PM
how on god's highly polluted Mobius could a villain ever be considered "cute"? If i recall properly, Bowser isn't cute...he's hideous.
#9
Guest_Miko_*
Guest_Miko_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 03:55 AM
Personally I'd like it if people stopped comparing Sonic to Mario as if Sonic's supposed to ride in his shadow (no pun intended). A lot of villians from Japan (like Dee Dee) try appealing to cuteness. I just don't think though that it may be incredibly appropriate to make Eggman cutesy given the fact that taking the villian as a serious threat to freedom is required.
#10
Cheezmatt
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 04:01 AM
QUOTE ("RingTailedFox":6lha6azs)
how on god's highly polluted Mobius could a villain ever be considered "cute"? If i recall properly, Bowser isn't cute...he's hideous.
I regret to inform you that a small number of Bowser fans find him sexy.
Forget about culture gaps though, the original point of Eggman is that he's an overgrown child. He has the technological know-how, he has the giant death machines, he has the badass boss music, but in the end he's basically a bratty kid who will throw a tantrum when things don't go his way. He's been depicited this way in Japan since the beginning, but Sega of America downplayed this character trait to give him a more sinister edge; changing his name to Dr. Robotnik in the process. It was believed that most kids would find a childish villain lame, especially in comparison to Mario's big bad Bowser - who himself was a more comedic character in Japan.
Naturally, inserting Eggman into a world where the tone is more serious, the stakes much higher, and the losses much greater, merely hurts both the character and the world's integrity. It's a jarring mess.
Aussie #3
#11
DCC
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- Fellow FUSer
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Fellow FUSer
Posted 11 June 2008 - 05:36 AM
Sally basically apologized(in Sonic #187) to Sonic for asking/demanding him to quit fighting. That seems to be over now, and it looks like that Sonic and Sally are slowly getting back together.
Sally needs to be an important part of the comic, and Sega and Archie need to allow Sonic and Sally's relationship to grow and develope into a stable and lasting relationship. That, I think, will go along way into improving the comic. There has been too much drama in the relationships, not just Sonic and Sally's.
Sonic, as a character, needs to grow and change for the better; there is reason some fans like other characters better and read the comic for characters other than Sonic. Sonic's good quilites need to be brought out more, he can be kind and loyal. He needs to learn from his mistakes, and not come across as a jerk to his friends at times. Sonic just isn't as likable some other characters.
I think the bond between Sonic and the rest of the Freedom Fighters needs to be focused on and strenghten.
As for the current Eggmen, even though he does have his theatening moments, maybe it was a mistake not to bring back the orginal Robotnik. Now that I think about it, Eggmen probably does look and act too goofy for some fans. I have never really liked the name Eggmen anyway, it is kind of hard to take a villain seriously with that name.
Ian may not be perfect, but I think he is better than Ken or Karl, both of them did things that ruinned the comic IMO.
At this point, though, I am not sure if the comic can be saved in fans eyes. It probably would be best to end the comic, with some careful planning to end the comic on a good note.
Sally needs to be an important part of the comic, and Sega and Archie need to allow Sonic and Sally's relationship to grow and develope into a stable and lasting relationship. That, I think, will go along way into improving the comic. There has been too much drama in the relationships, not just Sonic and Sally's.
Sonic, as a character, needs to grow and change for the better; there is reason some fans like other characters better and read the comic for characters other than Sonic. Sonic's good quilites need to be brought out more, he can be kind and loyal. He needs to learn from his mistakes, and not come across as a jerk to his friends at times. Sonic just isn't as likable some other characters.
I think the bond between Sonic and the rest of the Freedom Fighters needs to be focused on and strenghten.
As for the current Eggmen, even though he does have his theatening moments, maybe it was a mistake not to bring back the orginal Robotnik. Now that I think about it, Eggmen probably does look and act too goofy for some fans. I have never really liked the name Eggmen anyway, it is kind of hard to take a villain seriously with that name.
Ian may not be perfect, but I think he is better than Ken or Karl, both of them did things that ruinned the comic IMO.
At this point, though, I am not sure if the comic can be saved in fans eyes. It probably would be best to end the comic, with some careful planning to end the comic on a good note.
#12
Guest_Shorty_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 09:01 AM
QUOTE
Sally needs to be an important part of the comic, and Sega and Archie need to allow Sonic and Sally's relationship to grow and develope into a stable and lasting relationship.
Well she's already the princess, a freedom fighter and love interest. Sally's got a lot of roles already, and Ian's been focusing more on her relationship with Sonic as it is. How does Sally need to be any "more" important?
#13
Guest_RingtailedFox_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 09:16 AM
well, since sonic is archie's cash-cow (its second-highest seller after the archie series itself), i dont' see archie immediately retiring it. hell, sonic is what saved the company from going under around 1995-1996, when archie was having financial issues. now, careful planning COULD save the series just as well as end it on a good note.
#14
Guest_Miko_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 10:18 AM
QUOTE
Sega and Archie need to allow Sonic and Sally's relationship to grow and develope into a stable and lasting relationship. That, I think, will go along way into improving the comic.
That may save the comic for you individually but the mass majority of Sonic fans either:
a. prefer Sonic with someone else
b. prefer Sonic single
c. Didn't like how the dynamic between Sonic and Sally changed when they actually GOT together.
or
d.hate Sally
So giving Sonic and Sally a long lasting, stable relationship is undermining the comic's potential to reel in and keep happy more fans. Sonic and Sally can still share an enjoyable dynamic but they don't have to be lovey dovey and thinking of one another all the time.
More importantly, the new aged fans don't care as much about SonSal. Karl Bollers tried to address this by pairing Sonic with Amy, but he left and Ian's been back on the SonSal tangent. Times change and fans want different things. If we have to pair Sonic constantly based on trends such as "whose most popular" or "whose popular to hate right now" we'll never get anywhere. More importantly Sonic Team reserves the right to reboot the series again. So even if we were to assume Amy's been most popular for a long time, history with Sally has taught us never to be too certain of anything. Might I also add that Sonic and Sally's dynamic has been the frontrunner for how many years now? Do we seriously need to focus on it anymore than we have? I think that Sonic/Sally wouldn't need so much drama in their lives all the time if the comic would just cut back on how much time their dynamic gets a year.
How many issues last year were dedicated to bringing those two back together or have some SonSal related agenda?
172 Breaks Sonic up from Fiona and makes her OOC enough to date Scourge
173 Antoine tries getting Sonic to understand Sally's feelings
174- Highlighting Sonic and Sally's feelings for one another and touching upon the conflict that surrounds the two (breifly)
175- Sonic and Sally talking with one another, and noting that their relationship has improved enough for a little bit of banter despite the conflict.
178 & 179- Story arc dedicated to stripping the royal family of some of it's power and to provide more members of government. While this has no overt SonSal contributions, the intention is to ease tensions between Sonic and Sally by changing the mechanics of the government.
I'm not even going to investigate the rest. A good 50% of the entire comics produced that year touched on Sonic and Sally's dynamic. Where Sonic's dynamic with other popular characters that have been pretty close with him in the past have been as low as 0%. Even this year, It's been 5 issues already and part of "Mogul rising's" objective was to emphasize the solidity of Mina and Ash's relationship to further SonSal agenda and to put pressure on folks who just... don't agree with it.
Historically, Sonic and Sally has been a relationship given precedence and even overemphasis in the comic. Even stories that have nothing to do with them will be indirectly related to their relationship, and you're telling me we need to see MORE of it? I wouldn't be surprised if most comic readers like SonSal. It's almost mandatory in order to seriously enjoy this comic because they never shut up about it. Even when it's obvious that the mass majority of the Sonic fandom itself is apathetic to or hates Sonic/Sally. The mass majority of Sonic fans are annoyed by how much the comic deals with SonSal all the time.
QUOTE
There has been too much drama in the relationships, not just Sonic and Sally's
Even before Fiona and after Sally and Mina had their time with Sonic, the comic was still deemed a "soap opera" because the Sonic fandom in general had become aware of the pattern in the comic's overemphasis on Sonic's relationship to Sal. As long as Archie won't focus on other dynamics consistently, it will always be understood as a soap opera--and probably should be.QUOTE
Sally needs to be an important part of the comic,
Sally needs to take the backseat for awhile. She's now friends with Sonic--ok that's good things are resolved. What about Tails, Amy, Mina, Bunnie, Antoine, Rotor, and Knuckles? There has never been an emphasis on working with these dynamics consistently, and to emphasize the bonds Sonic has with these characters.
#15
Guest_Viuely_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 02:20 PM
I think the thing about Sally is that she represents a trend that is over and done with in America. Due to the nature of what I'm about to post, I'm not saying I am against Sally for being what she is or was.
I'm going to analyze SatAM Sally because many people vying for Archie Sally to go back to her SatAM roots and to become Sonic's main squeeze again. I'd like to address why that could present a problem.
In any case Sally, like most girls in the media during the era she was created was a posterchild for the independent (feminist) woman movement during the early to mid 90's. Sally was the practically the token naked female, and was the only one who actively dressed naked like her male counterparts.
Sally's personality is also reflective of the movement. While she had flaws, they were rarely if ever portrayed as detractable. If she ever did a mission wrong, the others would sympathize her efforts, casting them off as her "trying too hard to do everything". If Sonic was right about something for once, her wrongfulness wasn't detractable because thinking ahead is a quality that's typically valuable for the most part, and admired regardless. During this era, people were incredibly sensitive about female characters being good role models, and detractable flaws such as dependence on others, ESPECIALLY men and so fourth were deemed with mysogynistic intentions--rather than simply because accurate portrals of people require some detractable characteristics. That's why characters like Lola Bunny, Belle, Princess Jasmine, and a bunch of other girls during this era seemed to fill a similar mold as Sally did.
However nowadays the trend is incredibly different from what it was 10-15 years ago. People are incredibly reluctant to be associated with feminism due to the zealotry its presented itself as in the past. More than ever, characters are presented with detractable flaws, especially with the presence of reality TV. In fact, its come to a point where people have overbaked the actual flaws of individuals to get ratings (such as on the Bachelor). Feminism is seen almost as offensive to people because the movement would often imply that to be ideal meant to be flawless due to the protectiveness people had towards female portrayls at the time. Being that reality TV has socially OK'ed flaws as entertaining and enjoyable, people feel more comfortable with not identifying with the feminine mold of the 90's, and to even dislike it.
What I am getting at is that Sally is past her prime in the limelight. America has sense moved on in its tastes, which is the total opposite of what Sally represented to most people.
Characters like Amy represent the sexual segregation that is associated with modesty that remerged after the 90's in the cartoon world. Even Sally herself was forced to start wearing a vest after trends began to shift a little, similarly to the fate of Minerva Mink, the cartoon sex symbol from Animaniacs. Amy is incredibly flawed and detractable, chasing Sonic for her own selfish, romantic purposes--even to the point of being incredibly confrontaional and physically aggressive towards even Sonic himself.
The point of this? Fans don't realize that the average American doesn't want to see Sally for the aforementioned reasons because she is, lets face it, somewhat outdated to the public. I'm not saying that what she stood for was wrong, but I suppose I can't say that people don't have a justified reason to not identify with Sally either. If Sally as her SatAM self started going out with Sonic people would assume that Sonic indirectly stands for Sally's themes as a character because that's the kind of girl that he wants to be with. It would make Sonic also become somewhat unidentifable with people or rather--people wouldnt want to identify with him because they cannot/do not want to identify with his love interest in the first place.
I'm going to analyze SatAM Sally because many people vying for Archie Sally to go back to her SatAM roots and to become Sonic's main squeeze again. I'd like to address why that could present a problem.
In any case Sally, like most girls in the media during the era she was created was a posterchild for the independent (feminist) woman movement during the early to mid 90's. Sally was the practically the token naked female, and was the only one who actively dressed naked like her male counterparts.
Sally's personality is also reflective of the movement. While she had flaws, they were rarely if ever portrayed as detractable. If she ever did a mission wrong, the others would sympathize her efforts, casting them off as her "trying too hard to do everything". If Sonic was right about something for once, her wrongfulness wasn't detractable because thinking ahead is a quality that's typically valuable for the most part, and admired regardless. During this era, people were incredibly sensitive about female characters being good role models, and detractable flaws such as dependence on others, ESPECIALLY men and so fourth were deemed with mysogynistic intentions--rather than simply because accurate portrals of people require some detractable characteristics. That's why characters like Lola Bunny, Belle, Princess Jasmine, and a bunch of other girls during this era seemed to fill a similar mold as Sally did.
However nowadays the trend is incredibly different from what it was 10-15 years ago. People are incredibly reluctant to be associated with feminism due to the zealotry its presented itself as in the past. More than ever, characters are presented with detractable flaws, especially with the presence of reality TV. In fact, its come to a point where people have overbaked the actual flaws of individuals to get ratings (such as on the Bachelor). Feminism is seen almost as offensive to people because the movement would often imply that to be ideal meant to be flawless due to the protectiveness people had towards female portrayls at the time. Being that reality TV has socially OK'ed flaws as entertaining and enjoyable, people feel more comfortable with not identifying with the feminine mold of the 90's, and to even dislike it.
What I am getting at is that Sally is past her prime in the limelight. America has sense moved on in its tastes, which is the total opposite of what Sally represented to most people.
Characters like Amy represent the sexual segregation that is associated with modesty that remerged after the 90's in the cartoon world. Even Sally herself was forced to start wearing a vest after trends began to shift a little, similarly to the fate of Minerva Mink, the cartoon sex symbol from Animaniacs. Amy is incredibly flawed and detractable, chasing Sonic for her own selfish, romantic purposes--even to the point of being incredibly confrontaional and physically aggressive towards even Sonic himself.
The point of this? Fans don't realize that the average American doesn't want to see Sally for the aforementioned reasons because she is, lets face it, somewhat outdated to the public. I'm not saying that what she stood for was wrong, but I suppose I can't say that people don't have a justified reason to not identify with Sally either. If Sally as her SatAM self started going out with Sonic people would assume that Sonic indirectly stands for Sally's themes as a character because that's the kind of girl that he wants to be with. It would make Sonic also become somewhat unidentifable with people or rather--people wouldnt want to identify with him because they cannot/do not want to identify with his love interest in the first place.
#16
Guest_RingtailedFox_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 04:26 PM
so, strong, independent women (sally) = out/wrong, while selfish, immature, flawed women (amy) = in/right?
i can still see sally as very relevant, even with amy and sonic. Sally could and should be seen as a role-model towards young women that want to act maturely, even when adulthood and responsibility are thrust upon them through a great tragedy. Yes, i agree that she should step back a bit from the limelight, and perhaps her time has come and gone, but she is still relevant as the leader of the freedom fighters. The only downside right now, is that with NICOLE coming into the real world, her role as leader and "older sister" has diminished somewhat further. Personally, i think the role of "older sister" to the freedom fighters worked out very well for her.
Amy Rose Hedgehog... Amy.... hooo god, I hate her so much....
Amy is trying to grow up too fast, and when she's 30, she'll find herself whining about wasting her life trying to catch sonic, and having to settle for Rotor (at best).
Regardless, she seems to be the visual theme of today's younger generation: somewhat spoiled, angsty, but good-natured. At first, i thought she would be the icon for say, the Sonic Fan Club (see issue 40 for what i mean). while she is sonic-obsessed, she needs to grow more as a character and develop into a more relevant person before she can really be a contender, though her piko-piko hammer does help in battle.
Bunnie might very well be today's female, instead. Sally was more of a tomboyish field marshall in a war, but Bunnie might be able to relate more to today's women that are say, fighting in the war in Afghanistan or Iraq (i don't mean having limbs blown off and having prosthetics. believe me, that's not my intention). She could relate because she's very strong, loving and kind, but ready to defend her friends and family to the death against any threats that may arise. Sally could stand to learn a thing or two from ol' buns.
SatAM is almost timeless becuase its morals could be portrayed in any scene ("freedom good, tyranny bad"). i think what we need in the comics is a massive conflict that spans (at least) several issues, and preferrably 20 or more. End Game spanned from issue 30 to issue 50, had a special director's cut (Super Special 6), and lasted through several specials, and its effects lasted well into issue 78, along with various super specials. this is why it worked so well: it had an underlying theme to build on and to keep the story going. right now, we're back in the days of issues 0-29: one-issue or two-issue stories at best that don't really flow together or connect over time in a way that readers that are new to the series can understand. what is needed is an epic saga involving just the core freedom fighters, lead by sonic. archie comics, if you're reading this and DO take the hint, do NOT use mammoth mogul. i've seen too much of that god-modding limelight addict.
Nail, meet hammer?
i can still see sally as very relevant, even with amy and sonic. Sally could and should be seen as a role-model towards young women that want to act maturely, even when adulthood and responsibility are thrust upon them through a great tragedy. Yes, i agree that she should step back a bit from the limelight, and perhaps her time has come and gone, but she is still relevant as the leader of the freedom fighters. The only downside right now, is that with NICOLE coming into the real world, her role as leader and "older sister" has diminished somewhat further. Personally, i think the role of "older sister" to the freedom fighters worked out very well for her.
Amy Rose Hedgehog... Amy.... hooo god, I hate her so much....
Amy is trying to grow up too fast, and when she's 30, she'll find herself whining about wasting her life trying to catch sonic, and having to settle for Rotor (at best).
Regardless, she seems to be the visual theme of today's younger generation: somewhat spoiled, angsty, but good-natured. At first, i thought she would be the icon for say, the Sonic Fan Club (see issue 40 for what i mean). while she is sonic-obsessed, she needs to grow more as a character and develop into a more relevant person before she can really be a contender, though her piko-piko hammer does help in battle.
Bunnie might very well be today's female, instead. Sally was more of a tomboyish field marshall in a war, but Bunnie might be able to relate more to today's women that are say, fighting in the war in Afghanistan or Iraq (i don't mean having limbs blown off and having prosthetics. believe me, that's not my intention). She could relate because she's very strong, loving and kind, but ready to defend her friends and family to the death against any threats that may arise. Sally could stand to learn a thing or two from ol' buns.
SatAM is almost timeless becuase its morals could be portrayed in any scene ("freedom good, tyranny bad"). i think what we need in the comics is a massive conflict that spans (at least) several issues, and preferrably 20 or more. End Game spanned from issue 30 to issue 50, had a special director's cut (Super Special 6), and lasted through several specials, and its effects lasted well into issue 78, along with various super specials. this is why it worked so well: it had an underlying theme to build on and to keep the story going. right now, we're back in the days of issues 0-29: one-issue or two-issue stories at best that don't really flow together or connect over time in a way that readers that are new to the series can understand. what is needed is an epic saga involving just the core freedom fighters, lead by sonic. archie comics, if you're reading this and DO take the hint, do NOT use mammoth mogul. i've seen too much of that god-modding limelight addict.
Nail, meet hammer?
#17
Guest_Miko_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 07:23 PM
QUOTE ("RingtailedFox":z3p2nyuo)
so, strong, independent women (sally) = N out/wrong, while selfish, immature, flawed women (amy) = in/right?
Well, to be fair everyone's flawed. I don't think it's immaturity people enjoy inherently although a prude, perfect and stiff woman is kinda meh to some people after awhile. I think also that we've come to understand strength in another way. Amy's ambition and resilience can make her understood by the people of today as "strong", even if she has a lot of unsavory characteristics.
QUOTE
i can still see sally as very relevant, even with amy and sonic. Sally could and should be seen as a role-model towards young women that want to act maturely, even when adulthood and responsibility are thrust upon them through a great tragedy.
I think that's just it. Sally was concerned with being a ideal role model for a woman in the 90s. Today's society understands that they don't have to read their bibles, Torah, etc everytime they turn on a television or read a book. People are begginning to to acknowledge and accept the guilty pleasures of watching flawed people (like them) sort through life, instead of feigning interest in liking the same sort of chracter (the role model). We used to get the inside scoop on celebrities or read the news, lying to ourselves the true nature of why we watch. Now most people accept the fact they'd want to watch the lives of exceptionally flawed people because it entertains them.
I think the ideal that is Sally, is one that a lot of people can't consider to be incredibly realistic. People seem to just want role models that seem more 'real', more flawed like them. It makes them able to care about the main character when they're under the assumption that the person they're rooting for is someone they can understand. Having a character people can beleive is real also heightens the beleivability of the storytelling and writers have just gone with it. Even SEGA has tried tapping into this market by using Shadow. The attempt however was executed poorly and the angsty guy who doens't know how to do anything save brood is considered a cliche attempt at marketting to the masses this latest trend.
QUOTE
Yes, i agree that she should step back a bit from the limelight, and perhaps her time has come and gone, but she is still relevant as the leader of the freedom fighters. The only downside right now, is that with NICOLE coming into the real world, her role as leader and "older sister" has diminished somewhat further.
One of the problems with saying she's relevant as the leader of the FFs is that there are more characters to provide that role. The fact she's hotly joining in the fray to be with friends means she's lost a concept of how dangerous the war is, and is incredibly impulsive. That doesn't sound like very good leadership qualities.
QUOTE
Regardless, she seems to be the visual theme of today's younger generation: somewhat spoiled, angsty, but good-natured. At first, i thought she would be the icon for say, the Sonic Fan Club (see issue 40 for what i mean). while she is sonic-obsessed, she needs to grow more as a character and develop into a more relevant person before she can really be a contender, though her piko-piko hammer does help in battle.
About as much (if even) as Bunnie's mechanical limbs. I think it's sad we as viewers have to value the characters by their physical contributions because they're allowed so little time with Sonic to have their own unique dynamics with Sonic. In any case, I wouldn't say Amy's angsty. Amy's an attempt to provide growing demands to the cheerful, cute and energetic ideal IMO. Albiet I think sometimes they went over the top.
QUOTE
She could relate because she's very strong, loving and kind, but ready to defend her friends and family to the death against any threats that may arise. Sally could stand to learn a thing or two from ol' buns.
I think citing that as a reason to see Bunnie as connecting with today's masses makes her sound incredibly generic, and when defined in those terms most people would overlook her for similar reasons. Remember, today's people want a mix of flaws, good and bad. It adds its own unique flavor to the characters too.
QUOTE
SatAM is almost timeless becuase its morals could be portrayed in any scene ("freedom good, tyranny bad"). i think what we need in the comics is a massive conflict that spans (at least) several issues, and preferrably 20 or more.
It'd probably need to shakeup the status quo too in order to give people faith in the comics again.
#18
Guest_RingtailedFox_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 07:49 PM
so.... giving sally a flaw may make her more popular?
I can see a whole story arc over bunnie and one huge, glaringly obvious flaw that has not been exploited at all: her mechanical limbs. i don't think anyone understands how tempting it would be for bunnie to be given her ol' bunnie-bod back, in return for the location of Knothole Village, or New Mobotropolis. betrayal like that would certainly give her a flaw, albeit an understandable one. her body was taken from her, and given the chance to reclaim it, i definitely believe she would. that may very well be the boost that the comic needs. it would provide tension, drama, and suspense, along with the freedom fighters going through an emotional rollercoaster ride. all they need is a villain that is willing to try to destroy the freedom fighters (which we have, in the form of Ixis Naugus). he already has a motive: he HATES sonic, and was utterly HUMILIATED by the quickster, WAY back in Super Special #15.... dunno if he made an appearance since then... but he would LOVE to get back at sonic.... i know it.
I can see a whole story arc over bunnie and one huge, glaringly obvious flaw that has not been exploited at all: her mechanical limbs. i don't think anyone understands how tempting it would be for bunnie to be given her ol' bunnie-bod back, in return for the location of Knothole Village, or New Mobotropolis. betrayal like that would certainly give her a flaw, albeit an understandable one. her body was taken from her, and given the chance to reclaim it, i definitely believe she would. that may very well be the boost that the comic needs. it would provide tension, drama, and suspense, along with the freedom fighters going through an emotional rollercoaster ride. all they need is a villain that is willing to try to destroy the freedom fighters (which we have, in the form of Ixis Naugus). he already has a motive: he HATES sonic, and was utterly HUMILIATED by the quickster, WAY back in Super Special #15.... dunno if he made an appearance since then... but he would LOVE to get back at sonic.... i know it.
#19
Guest_Shorty_*
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Posted 11 June 2008 - 08:46 PM
Looking at how people treated Sally when her flaws DID become aparent (and despite the fact hints of them were expressed in earlier issues), I think the one problem with her fandom is that they're too engrossed with making her fit their "ideal role model", and aren't letting her actually be a more realistic character. Its understandable that they'd feel this way. I mean, when you think about it, other shippers will find even the slightest bit of dirt to diss a love interest so of course they're going to be somewhat defensive. However, her supporters also need to understand that there are going to be some anti-Sally or anti-Sonic/Sally fans out there that aren't going to be pleased no matter what actions are taken. She'll either be "too flawed" or "too perfect/Mary-sue" for them.
For relatability purposes, I'd allow Sally to have flaws for if at least the minimal reasons Miko stated: Nowadays, people want relatable characters and Sally already distances herself by being a princess. I think for me personally, what I liked about post 130 Sally was the fact she could lead her people and make hard decisions despite the fact she wasn't as strong as people initially anticipated.
Sally has detractable personality flaws along traits that people would find likeable. I think that its a matter of finding a way to balance them both, and allowing people to make a well-assessed decision on their own. There may be people who don't like Sally for her flaws, but then again, there are people who'll dislike her if they feel like they're being forced to like her. That's another problem I think I have with Ian's potrayl of Sal. He tries too hard with her.
For relatability purposes, I'd allow Sally to have flaws for if at least the minimal reasons Miko stated: Nowadays, people want relatable characters and Sally already distances herself by being a princess. I think for me personally, what I liked about post 130 Sally was the fact she could lead her people and make hard decisions despite the fact she wasn't as strong as people initially anticipated.
QUOTE
so.... giving sally a flaw may make her more popular?
Sally has detractable personality flaws along traits that people would find likeable. I think that its a matter of finding a way to balance them both, and allowing people to make a well-assessed decision on their own. There may be people who don't like Sally for her flaws, but then again, there are people who'll dislike her if they feel like they're being forced to like her. That's another problem I think I have with Ian's potrayl of Sal. He tries too hard with her.
#20
Guest_Miko_*
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Posted 12 June 2008 - 12:41 AM
I don't think Sally being flawed is going to solve anything until Archie cuts her screentime for the other characters, and stops parading their opinions on who Sonic should love. Like it's been said before, a lot of people may understand Sonic's love interest as endorsing a particular personality. Not only that but some people like what his dynamics with the other girls offer and like the possibility of a pairup.
Sally's more vocal haters are usually people who want him single or with someone else. They're simply using her flaws as a way to spread negative propoganda about her. Sally fans (Ian included) don't help matters when they try to act like having a friggin flaw is OOC instead of fighting back and drawing to her haters' attention that EVERYONE (including Sonic, Amy and Mina etc) have flaws. The level of Sally hate may deter new fans, especially if they set foot on the internet. So getting rid of the TRUE basis of the Sally hatred is necessary. Very often the propoganda fans spread to hate a character isn't the true reason they hate them. For example many Mina fans complained Ash was abusive and a jerk, and even when Ian's made moves to potray him differently, there are many who haven't budged.
Well I think a lot of people would contest a serious conflict over Bunnie's limbs is OOC. Bunnie has accepted her limbs for awhile now. Only caring that Antoine would support and love her. The only way in my mind, that we can really work with Bunnie on that angle is to remove the person who makes her feel confident and beautiful. But I think personality flaws also need to be emphasized more with Bunnie. It's always "Southern Belle" "Southern Belle"! We need to see some uglier sides these days. Most importantly this conflict has to add to Bunnie's relationship with Sonic or at least develop him indirectly. Bunnie needs to be emphasized as someone very relevant in Sonic's life. Something the comic hasn't been good at doing for ANY of the characters save Sally.
Sally's more vocal haters are usually people who want him single or with someone else. They're simply using her flaws as a way to spread negative propoganda about her. Sally fans (Ian included) don't help matters when they try to act like having a friggin flaw is OOC instead of fighting back and drawing to her haters' attention that EVERYONE (including Sonic, Amy and Mina etc) have flaws. The level of Sally hate may deter new fans, especially if they set foot on the internet. So getting rid of the TRUE basis of the Sally hatred is necessary. Very often the propoganda fans spread to hate a character isn't the true reason they hate them. For example many Mina fans complained Ash was abusive and a jerk, and even when Ian's made moves to potray him differently, there are many who haven't budged.
QUOTE
I can see a whole story arc over bunnie and one huge, glaringly obvious flaw that has not been exploited at all: her mechanical limbs. i don't think anyone understands how tempting it would be for bunnie to be given her ol' bunnie-bod back, in return for the location of Knothole Village, or New Mobotropolis.
Well I think a lot of people would contest a serious conflict over Bunnie's limbs is OOC. Bunnie has accepted her limbs for awhile now. Only caring that Antoine would support and love her. The only way in my mind, that we can really work with Bunnie on that angle is to remove the person who makes her feel confident and beautiful. But I think personality flaws also need to be emphasized more with Bunnie. It's always "Southern Belle" "Southern Belle"! We need to see some uglier sides these days. Most importantly this conflict has to add to Bunnie's relationship with Sonic or at least develop him indirectly. Bunnie needs to be emphasized as someone very relevant in Sonic's life. Something the comic hasn't been good at doing for ANY of the characters save Sally.
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