298 replies to this topic

[Morgan]

I don't understand this "Sally Mary Sue" thing. How can canon characters be Mary Sue if Mary Sue characters are fan made:P (Unless, in fact, Sally and others may be this "Mary Sue" because Sega did not create them, therefore, technically, they aren't canon characters). Regardless the case, I don't see how a canon character can ever be a Mary Sue as Mary Sue are fanmade out of some weird desire or fascination for one of the canon characters. *shrug*

[Mithrandir]

Also, I'm trying to wrap my mind around whether the bigger "problem" with her is this apparent "Sueism", or the poor writing her character's been subjected to for ages now.

[MistressAli]

Dammit... I had a whole post typed out and lost it due to this damn back button on my mom's mouse... GRRR

[You misunderstand Ali, the overhaul reffers to around issue 17-18 where the initial backstories, personalities, and relationships between characters were for no apparent reason being warped to conform to Sally's needs in particular.

This is where we disagree. Not that I remember (or even care) about those issues, but writing Sally back into the Freedom Fighters doesn't sound OOC. It sounds like putting things right, ie: giving her back her SatAM role. Call it a 'retcon' or whatever, I don't care. I wouldn't have wanted to see SatAM continue in the vein of 'Heads or Tails'; I wouldn't want to see Archie have continued in the vein of the earliest issues.
Annnnd... I don't take early issues seriously... I mean, we have Sonic going up Rotor's nasal cavities to fight (or assist?) his 'Auntie Bodies' and an issue where Robotnik n' Sniv are driving around a gigantic vaccum cleaner. Yeah...that's all to be taken real serious

We're not discussing whether or not Sally has a few "traits" of a Sue, we're discussing whether or not she encompasses any of the Mary Sue tropes currently in existence. And she does.

Whatever. So maybe she does. Do I really care? Nope. As someone else mentioned, I don't care if she is/isn't, I still like her, and I still think she's a good character when she's -written well-. And no I won't quit stressing the thing about good writing. I think if good writing were applied to ALL of Archie, there would be a lot less problems, and I find that you guys tend to nitpick just Sally as being sooo bad while ignoring the large issue, which is Archie's writing blows chunks.

Realistic? Again, just because they're fighting the war doesn't mean they don't need governing. Who dictates law?

They were doing just fine before King Mad Max showed his batshit insane mug They had law n' order, they had some kind of education being done by the adults (I envision small schooling groups led by people like Rosie. Not huge freakin schools with actual certified teachers.) Then again, you are correct about Eggman being a pathetic threat. I'll give you that one

It's not that the story/character is cliche. It's that the character derails the other characters, strips them of any importance besides their physical abilities, warps the reality surronding the continuity and so on. Sally is far too imposing on the storyline.

And I disagree. None of the characters have ANY importance, because there's too many of them, they're too busy fighting the 'next great threat who ends up being lame and everyone laughs and goes back to shagging or something'.
I'm sure if Sally were to die right now in the comic, or somehow go bye-bye... I'm just SO SURE that the comic would magically become the best comic evah! Suddenly, characters would be written with brilliant, moving scenes! Character development would improve by leaps and bounds. Everyone would be given their own little moment in the spotlight. Eggman would become a meancing villian again, and Snively would do a striptease to 'the thong song.' Oh yes, how it would rule.

[Morgan]

I still do not see how a female advancing the plot is still considered a sue unless it revolved around them and them being superwoman who does anything and everything and has a fuckload of powers and all the main guys like her or whatnot. I mean... I dunno. I thought the comic these days practically turned into the new Sonic X with very little focus on any of the female characters anymore...with exception of Sally I suppose who's still fulfilling her role as being the character she's always been. Maybe she's written out of character now, but I don't see how she's "taken over the plot" or "bent characters". She's been one of the main characters for an incredibly long time. But if that's the case for Sally, haven't Mina and Amy also turned into Sues as well? Is Sally's role any different now than she was in SatAM? That's my unbiased opinion.

Aaaaand I pretty much agree with Ali.

[Mithrandir]

I still do not see how a female advancing the plot is still considered a sue unless it revolved around them and them being superwoman who does anything and everything and has a fuckload of powers and all the main guys like her or whatnot. I mean... I dunno. I thought the comic these days practically turned into the new Sonic X with very little focus on any of the female characters anymore...with exception of Sally I suppose who's still fulfilling her role as being the character she's always been. Maybe she's written out of character now, but I don't see how she's "taken over the plot" or "bent characters". She's been one of the main characters for an incredibly long time. But if that's the case for Sally, haven't Mina and Amy also turned into Sues as well? Is Sally's role any different now than she was in SatAM? That's my unbiased opinion.

Aaaaand I pretty much agree with Ali.

Don't be so silly! You're being logical, and there's clearly no place for that here.

[John Roberts]

Whatever. So maybe she does. Do I really care? Nope. As someone else mentioned, I don't care if she is/isn't, I still like her, and I still think she's a good character when she's -written well-. And no I won't quit stressing the thing about good writing. I think if good writing were applied to ALL of Archie, there would be a lot less problems, and I find that you guys tend to nitpick just Sally as being sooo bad while ignoring the large issue, which is Archie's writing blows chunks.

Sally is Sue this, Sally is Sue that, her dynamics are broken, her character derails the rest of the story, and the world will end as we know it if Sally continues to exist blah-de blah blah... leaving aside the Sally hate theme peeping up, as always is the case with the whacko sisters on the job, I support the old silly idea of how good writing can turn anything around, and that bad writing is bad writing. I guess I've never understood the whole Mary Sue concept, blaming everything that goes wrong in the story on a single character when in actual fact the blame should squarely go to the fuckwit(s) behind the script.

As Ali said, when Sally was written well - and she has been in the past, 1995 era of the comic being my favourite time for Sally - her character rocked. She worked. The present-time Sally, not so much. Sitting there analysing and finding reasons why a character sucks, and blaming it on ruining everything else, when the writing is so god-awfully bad just makes no sense to me.

Again with the 'as Ali said', removing Sally's so-called Mary Sue arse isn't going to suddenly fix Archie Sonic's story. You need good writing for that.

[Morgan]

Oh, I know how you fix all the plotholes and whatnot. One day, the Freedom Fighters "wake up" to find out the last 100 issues or something was basically a dream. Badabing. (Won't fix bad writing when you have bad writers, but at least that should fix all the inconsistency...in enough time for more inconsistency to follow).

[John Roberts]

Perhaps it's likely Amy's relationship with Sonic would have to change if they were to marry. But right now Amy--nor any love interest should be built with a premise that leaves the doors wide open to a long termed relationship like marriage. To do that, Amy would have to essentially have her character worked around completing Sonic, and that'd throw off the rest of the cast. "Completing" Sonic may be a nifty idea for a romance novel. But Archie isn't a romance novel. Romance is a subplot and they have other characters who need to be apart of Sonic's life. Therefore Amy can't "complete" Sonic without adding a sore spot to this situation.

Therefore? There's no therefore. Me thinks you don't fully understand how fiction relationships can be shaped, worked and written. Characters have to complete one another? A long lasting romance sub-plot will affect the rest of an ensemble cast interacting with the protagonist? There's more than one way to skin a cat, Miko, your single view on what relationships are and how they're written is not the only way it can be done.

Not that I'm trying to defend an Amy/Sonic coupling here... frankly she's too young, and no amount of magical body aging plot device will change that fact when her mind quite clearly never matured.

But a lot of the problems are associated with her. To what extent do we blame the writers? Especially when a lot of the discussed Mary-sue here have become associated with her character in general? Anytime the writers HAVE tried undoing some of the tropes she's been under, its only been met with scrutiny or BS about how she's "OOC".

(Fuck your purple text is annoying mate)
EVERY character can be said to have these 'Mary Sue' traits if you look closely enough (Sonic, Bunnie, Rotor, Mina, Amy) and in the end it's only a matter of opinion. As for how much can be blamed on the writers? All of it. Every single bit. They're the ones pulling the strings - the characters aren't coming to life through some magical pinochio means and writing themselves. And if it's been because of fan reaction that has prevented any writer to undo any of these problems, then they are also at fault for not having the balls to write a story instead of listening to fans.

Again with the 'as Ali said', removing Sally's so-called Mary Sue arse isn't going to suddenly fix Archie Sonic's story

That's like saying getting rid of Mammoth Mogul wouldn't help the storyline. Granted, Sally is merely one element of a bigger problem, but fixing this is still in turn, a good step in helping the comic nonetheless. Also who said Sally "had" to be gotten rid of in order for this to happen?

Um, you and your sister? Isn't that what you two keep eluding to? It certainly always seems to be the direction of most of your arguments. "Get rid of Sally. Mina for president." Well, maybe not that last bit.

[fishtheimpaler]

"Get rid of Sally. Mina for president." Well, maybe not that last bit.

Maybe? Of course not. Everyone knows Mina suspended her campaign to rush back to New Mobotropolis and deal with the Scourge crisis, and it's unfair to suggest otherwise.

[Morgan]

"Get rid of Sally. Mina for president." Well, maybe not that last bit.

Maybe? Of course not. Everyone knows Mina suspended her campaign to rush back to New Mobotropolis and deal with the Scourge crisis, and it's unfair to suggest otherwise.

She rushed back with Amy, and they're going to continue the debate soon!

[MistressAli]

Yadda, yadda. I'm just grabbing here and there what to respond to, cuz i like to bend the argument to center around me. HOOHAAAAHOOOOO

[quote][quote]This is where we disagree. Not that I remember (or even care) about those issues, but writing Sally back into the Freedom Fighters doesn't sound OOC. It sounds like putting things right, ie: giving her back her SatAM role. [/quote]

Just because we like SatAM doesn't mean we're entitled to screw with another continuity in the name of it. [/quote]

Archie is based off SatAM, no it's not supposed to be exactly alike... it's more of an expansion of the show, or at least that's how it used to be. So I'd expect the characters to retain their base personalites.

[quote]Sally still shouldn't be there because that sense of maturity and responsibility and knowing where she's not needed took her out of the feild awhile ago. [/quote]

I don't think she should have been taken out of the field, so n'yah. The tenacious leader that was Sally doesn't seem like the type who would just abandon her tight-knit group of FF's, her -family- essentially to go sit on a throne all prim n' proper. Not until the war was over. Not until the business was finished. Her entire life was invested in that war. Maybe the problem is all the different writers putting their own spin on her character, where in one storyline she's staying out of the action, and in another she wants back in. If she hadn't been taken out to begin with, there wouldn't be all this whining about her joining back with the FF's.
(This isn't just a problem with Sally either. They do the same thing with other characters. They turned Sonic into a manwhore for a while there, and they never seemed to know what direction to go with Snivvy-wiv. Robotnik & Eggman got the same treatment of being meancing sometimes, and very very goofy at others.)

[quote] Sally is still bending story to fit where she no longer belongs. [/quote]

Well, I'll just go with my seXy man John here when he says the characters don't do anything, as they aren't actually real. The writer is the one screwing with the storyline. The character happens to be the victim of their disregard and personal desires. KINKY!

[quote]Sues aren't "good characters" because they essentially destroy everything around them. Sally became an idealized character and black hole. [/quote]

This argument is a black hole...

[quote]The other characters were never really above the role of plot device becuase they never could regularly contribute their personalities to the story in a way Sally could. [/quote]

And that's because the writers never bothered to write for them. Not because of 'Sonic's girlfriend'. I'm sorry, but just because you have a couple in a story doesn't mean you can't focus on other characters. Failure to do so is laziness on the writer's part.

[quote]They also had a lot less people to govern compared to when "Mad Max" showed up. Frankly he was one of the most sanest characters to me. [/quote]

That explains everything! Hahaha.
[quote]With a small society decision making's a lot easier. It's faulty to compare governing a small group of rebels and perhaps a couple of other nameless villagers to a huge society of people that need shelter, clothing, education, and so on continuously.[/quote]

Yeah, maybe so, but I think its a bit ridicolous that Knothole ever got that big anyway. The castle and the school are still a bit too much for me. I can see the King assigning groups of people into governing sort of roles, putting Geoffrey and his MPs in charge of law, I can see parents establishing teaching groups. People would still have to be close-knit and willing to help and volunteer for the good of the entire group. I can see things that are more of a temporary patch, like a mockup kingdom... until the war is over and they can have a real, stable goverment system and all its perks (and crappiness O.o)
Hell you want to talk about bending the storyline... turning a secret, covert village into a enormous booming city is pretty bent if you ask me.

[quote]quote]None of the characters have ANY importance, because there's too many of them, they're too busy fighting the 'next great threat who ends up being lame and everyone laughs and goes back to shagging or something'. [/quote]

I want you to understand what you just said. NONE have any importance because there's too many? [/quote]

That's what I said. There are so many characters running about that not a one of them gets the focus. Not one of them gets any importance placed on their own personal struggles, feelings, backstories blah blah blah. There's too many. And they're usually fighting and qupping one-liners nowdays.

Yeah, you can have a large cast and still focus on each one. Stephen King has shitloads of chars in some of his novels, and yet he gives them all life. He makes them all real. Not that I think the comic can go into that sort of depth, they just don't have the time or space... but really. Eliminate some characters when they're not needed and focus on a main group. (by eliminate I don't mean kill)

[quote] Sally's premise forces everyone out because the concept behind it is to balance Sonic out, to complete him.[/quote]

I don't get this focus on Sally's role being to 'complete' Sonic. They can't be lovers and still be individuals? They can't have other friends? They can't have other people that they confide certain things to, things they don't confide to their lover? They don't have any focus beyond theirselves? I know the comic is not SatAM, but SatAM proves this wrong by having Sonic and Sally be close, possbly a couple, and still have need for the others around them. Sally and Bunnie's friendship was real, it existed beyond Sonic. Sonic and Rotor were pals, Sonic and Uncle Chuck were a good pair that had nothing to do with Sally. Sonic's character was not just colored by what Sally gave him, but by what everyone gave him, and vice versa.