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Who Should Sonic Be Making Out With?

Started by fishtheimpaler, Mar 12 2008 06:06 PM

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298 replies to this topic

#41 Guest_Miko_*

GUESTS

Posted 14 September 2008 - 09:47 PM

QUOTE ("pizzapie555":e9qeb9bw)

sonic and sally. period. it just makes sense, and its the way it oughtta be.

Makes sense factoring in all the asspulls/retcons/character derailment/etc. if we took all that out of account however, it's almost certain Sonic would never be where he is with Sally.

Its one thing to say "I like it" and another to say "it makes sense" without supporing what you say. Mina/Amy/Fiona aren't "crack pairings" like say Sonic/Julian or Eggman/Espio

#42 Guest_SAA_*

GUESTS

Posted 14 September 2008 - 10:53 PM

All I have to say is that I like Sally and Sonic because they balance out. Sonic is the rash thinker who acts on impulse while Sally is the planner that can real him in. On the flip side, we see Sally as the calm woman where Sonic brings her out of her shell some. They have a good Ying to Yang balance.

#43 Guest_Shorty_*

GUESTS

Posted 15 September 2008 - 04:18 AM

QUOTE

All I have to say is that I like Sally and Sonic because they balance out. Sonic is the rash thinker who acts on impulse while Sally is the planner that can real him in.

That might've been how it was in SatAM but that dynamic is a lot harder to argue in Archie comics. Originally, Sonic had developed into a more self sufficient character, as well as the other Freedom Fighters during Sally's absense. So even if Sonic's emotions got the better of him (which is hardly even the case anymore due to the lack of sizable losses), Sally's need has ended up decreasing, and the only reason she's the "tact" now is because Sonic stepped down to give her that position. Not to say that this dynamic can never occasionally show itself, but I don't see it being nearly as prevalent compared to before. Especially under Ian's writing, where most issues consist of 2-3 part manfights that usually lack any sizeable bearing to the plot let alone anything for Sonic to get emotional about. Sonic's character development.

Going back to the planning bit, I think that Sally's become more of a hinderance to Sonic's development because in order for the dynamic to work on a consistant level, Sonic has to be the same. First Ian made Sally OOC just to get where she is now, and ontop of that, like I said before, Sonic had to willingly dumb down himself and his capeabilities just so that she can have a place. Not only that but, how does Ian get off writing Sally to be impulsive enough to Freedom Fight (despite being the heir), while being"level-headed" enough to make rational decisions during missions? I mean, come oooon.

#44 Guest_bossmanham_*

GUESTS

Posted 22 September 2008 - 07:34 PM

Nope, Sally is awesome. The End.

#45 Guest_Shorty_*

GUESTS

Posted 23 September 2008 - 04:44 AM

Feel free to like her, but the fact is still standing as of now that Sally requires too many plot goatses, and benefits at the expense of other characters to exist as she is in the Freedom Fighters, let alone as some love interest to Sonic, hence is one of the reasons why she's labled by many fans as a Mary-sue.

#46 Cheezmatt

The Flying Krock

Fellow FUSer
391 posts

Gender:Male
Location:Brisbane Australia

Posted 23 September 2008 - 05:44 AM

Don't mind Shorty or her sisters, bossman. They occasionally spout crap.

Anybody can tell you that Sally's status as a decent character has dropped sharply in recent years. Yeah, her and the rest of the cast. It's just a matter of re-prioritizing these characters and their importance in the overall plot, along with simply writing them better. The two usually go hand-in-hand, I find.

Aussie #3

#47 Guest_Miko_*

GUESTS

Posted 23 September 2008 - 12:50 PM

QUOTE ("Cheezmatt":3qriw97v)

Don't mind Shorty or her sisters, bossman. They occasionally spout crap.

The truth usually does suck ass after all =p

QUOTE

Anybody can tell you that Sally's status as a decent character has dropped sharply in recent years. Yeah, her and the rest of the cast. It's just a matter of re-prioritizing these characters and their importance in the overall plot, along with simply writing them better. The two usually go hand-in-hand, I find.

I just don't see it happening right now. The method SonSal or even a lot of Sally supporters have for a remedy to Sally's "problems" essentially run the book in the ground and make matters worse. For one thing, Sally was a rational, level headed character (albiet not originally). Now how do you get a girl who can see the consequences of her actions, and puts her people first to of all things, go on the feild and pow wow with friends? Can you argue the separation from Sonic, and her friends drove her to think only of the present moment? To Well fine, but then you'd have to work around an entirely separate dynamic which really takes off gears the whole concept behind the Sonic/Sally relationship. If Sally no longer wants to play the role of the level headed, look-before-leaping kind of character then that should be reflected in the adventures. So should her declining sense of commitment to do what's best for the people. Arguably to keep Sally there, you're just tearing apart the original premise, and making the on Sally jumping hotly into battle shouldn't go on without reprocussions. This is a war. At least provide some viable opposition towards freedom if you won't snatch it from the characters. Sally only makes it worse by coming onto the feild when she knows she's no longer needed there as if this is some sort of playground. Her personality shifts as the plot demands and lacks consistency so that it paints the image of "old times" to those who're so desperate to see it they'll ignore the discontinuty. Granted, you make her hot headed enough to jump into the fray (unnecessarily) and then you try to flip scripts when she's in. No. Sally's existence within the current series requires bad writing, and inconsistent characterization so that people who want SatAM continued in the comics can at least dream that Sonic and Sally could be king and queen one day. And kiss. And have slumber parties with Lara-su.

Another problem I have with the direction of Sonic/Sally is that people want to portray it as the perfect relationship. In consequence the team dynamic is virtually absent. Oh sure everyone sports SUWPAR POWRZ. But none of the characters can make their strengths in personality of any use to Sonic in a way that Sally's couldn't because to do so would infer "imperfection" of their relationship. They wouldn't be a "perfect" couple if Tails, or Bunnie were regularly necessary during missions in the midst of their the mechanics of their bond. The characters themselves don't seem very well connected with one another. So for years a lot of these other characters have just stood as mere plot devices with little else to contribute.It's very difficult to consider Archie's Sally at ANY point (save prior to issue 18) a decent character. She encompases just about every Mary Sue trope. Oh sure, just about all characters have Mary Sue traits, but Sally encompases actual Mary Sue tropes, not miniscule details/indicators which could help newbies to detect the trope.

Relationship Sue, posession Sue (poor Sal), purity Sue-- the tropes Sal has assumed (although not simletaneously) are alarming.

#48 Guest_Shorty_*

GUESTS

Posted 23 September 2008 - 12:55 PM

QUOTE

Don't mind Shorty or her sisters, bossman. They occasionally spout crap.

Hey, at least I can actually back up what I say. I've given my reasons as to why people lable Sally a sue, and I've yet to see a single Sally/pro SonSal fan do so much as even try to debunk my arguement. If you or anyone else wants to try, then I'm all for it, but don't start calling what I say "crap" when you can't even make an arguement to refute otherwise.

#49 MistressAli

Pirate Extraordinaire

Fellow FUSer
419 posts

Gender:Female

Posted 23 September 2008 - 02:14 PM

Canon characters can't be sues. They are how they're written. And if it's bad writing, then yes, they will turn into crappy useless lumps of flesh.

http://lupienne.deviantart.com/ *Moi DevArts

#50 John Roberts

It's a nativity scene, except nobody here is wise

Admins
2,589 posts

Gender:Male
Location:Darwin, Australia

Posted 23 September 2008 - 03:22 PM

Have always had a soft spot for Sonic and Sally, as far back as issue 0 where their chemistry clicked from the start. But stories change, characters grow apart, new are introduced ect ect... if Archie was able to treat all that with some sort of skill and respect for where the characters came from, and how to bloody write well, I would accept any coupling/de-coupling. But they can't, and they sure as hell don't. Sadly, I don't think I could even accept my favourite Sonic/Sally pairing being reunited by Archie because it would not be done from their history together, or anything slightly resembling good thought-out character writing, it'll be born from some fuckwit thinking 'hey, wouldn't this be cool if we..'

Archie don't get it. They haven't gotten it for a fucking long time. And why the fuck do we keep analysing that piece of a crap of a comic book? *uppercuts self*

6620

9:06

#51 Mithrandir

Fellow FUSer

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Location:Jersey City, NJ

Posted 23 September 2008 - 03:43 PM

QUOTE ("MistressAli":3pww0tuy)

Canon characters can't be sues. They are how they're written. And if it's bad writing, then yes, they will turn into crappy useless lumps of flesh.

THANK YOU.

Sues are written by fans or "interlopers" who decide to drop their overly-idealized characters right into an already established situation. Sally was there from the get-go, and her character traits established from there; she is who she is. If you think that means she's "too perfect", well, honestly, you don't have to like it, but that's how it is.

I never really understood that argument, anyway; there wasn't enough time in the original SatAM to really delve into various characters' flaws, and the comics seem to depict each character differently depending on who's writing. Honestly, trying to impose flaws over Sally just for the sake of giving her glaring character flaws feels needless to me; its not like there's no such thing as a person who is by and large mature and a good leader. Sally's displayed insecurities and fears, but her character is that of someone who's had to become mature beyond her years, since she's a mother figure for a lot of her friends. I don't see that as being "too perfect."

Don't get me wrong; I'm not a 'shipper, and I think 'shippers are pretty destructive to any fanbase, since it means the fans are more interested in their own selfish wants than in appreciating what the writers can come up with on their own. Betcha there was a ton of folks who were really upset that it didn't work out between the two main characters on The Wonder Years, but isn't that still considered a legendary show?

But the problem with most of the other pairings that've been bandied about is that too many are flat. Sonic and Sally's relationship is really the only one fans have really gotten to grow with, and the only one with much in the way of depth. Mina wasn't a bad attempt, but the writing came up short on really establishing why Sonic would want to be with her. Amy, for some reason or another, has a whole army of 'shippers, but a relationship with her and Sonic would define "one dimensional".

So, until the writing can reach a level where the things happening are believable and well thought out, Sonic and Sally remains probably the most well developed of any potential pairing, if Sonic must have a love interest.

#52 Guest_pizzapie555_*

GUESTS

Posted 23 September 2008 - 09:21 PM

QUOTE ("Mithrandir":tp7yxx0a)

QUOTE ("MistressAli":tp7yxx0a)

Canon characters can't be sues. They are how they're written. And if it's bad writing, then yes, they will turn into crappy useless lumps of flesh.

You are completely right. Damn, is there anything we dont agree on?

...sorry if that sounded overly cheesy.

#53 Guest_bossmanham_*

GUESTS

Posted 23 September 2008 - 09:42 PM

What do you guys think the Sonic Sally near kiss in issue #187 was all about? You think Ian is leading up to something?

#54 Guest_pizzapie555_*

GUESTS

Posted 23 September 2008 - 10:22 PM

QUOTE ("bossmanham":364ih16t)

What do you guys think the Sonic Sally near kiss in issue #187 was all about? You think Ian is leading up to something?

I would'nt be surprised if he is. And if so, goody. I think 4 years is a long enough break. Additionally, I'm sure Archies mailbox will be overflowing with fan letters.

#55 Cheezmatt

The Flying Krock

Fellow FUSer
391 posts

Gender:Male
Location:Brisbane Australia

Posted 24 September 2008 - 12:20 AM

QUOTE ("Shorty":3rdh46po)

I've yet to see a single Sally/pro SonSal fan do so much as even try to debunk my arguement.

Your argument has been debunked more than once by people like Exor, who isn't even a Sonic/Sally fan. Except I believe it was a debate with Miko, and it encompassed not just the relationship with Sally but all of the original Freedom Fighters. Sadly all those happy discussions have been lost with the old board, so you'll have to settle for the responses from MistressAli et al.
Although it's a bit selective that you can criticize Ian Flynn or bad writing as much as the next person, but maintain that a simple thing like hooking up with Sally again is out of the question.

Really though, Sonic's love life should be the least of Archie's concerns.

Aussie #3

#56 Guest_Miko_*

GUESTS

Posted 24 September 2008 - 02:09 AM

QUOTE ("MistressAli":1jums18l)

Canon characters can't be sues.

False. It is not usually attributed to canon storylines, because it is a characteristic of very amatuer writing. However all the Mary Sue tropes can be canon, most commonly Possession Sue:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... sessionSue

QUOTE

Your argument has been debunked more than once by people like Exor, who isn't even a Sonic/Sally fan

If that's true you can simply apply what he said to this discussion then right? As far as this discussion goes no one has done so.

QUOTE

Sues are written by fans or "interlopers" who decide to drop their overly-idealized characters right into an already established situation. Sally was there from the get-go, and her character traits established from there; she is who she is.

"Sally" was there from the get go true, but the personality was very different. To get her to the kind of characterization you understand today as "correct", she was pretty much turned into Penders' possession Sue at around issue 17-18. Not only that but like a romantic Sue she was the source of derailing Sonic's character (as he never really needed Sally to "balance" him out before) and took a key ingredient of the Sonic-Tails duo as it was developing from within the comic. After that a she pretty much took Tails and his role to the story out of the picture in order to give herself more presence.

QUOTE

If you think that means she's "too perfect", well, honestly, you don't have to like it, but that's how it is.

Arguably, regardless of context just because something "is" doesn't mean it's "good."

QUOTE

I never really understood that argument, anyway; there wasn't enough time in the original SatAM to really delve into various characters' flaws, and the comics seem to depict each character differently depending on who's writing.

I don't think we were necessarily talking about SatAM's version of Sally but ok. But if you argue from that route, in SatAM they had many plotty/filler episodes. they really could've made more use of these stories by making them more relevant to the characters. In the original Archie comic Sally already had a fair ammount of flaws and limitations as a character. But aspects about her which would be easy to note were commonly overlooked to make her the idealized 90's chick.

QUOTE

Honestly, trying to impose flaws over Sally just for the sake of giving her glaring character flaws feels needless to me; its not like there's no such thing as a person who is by and large mature and a good leader.

Sally being portrayed as a mature and good leader in the past required two things to happen.

1. The derailment of Sonic's character.

2. Stealing a lot from the concept behind Sonic and Tails' relationship. Granted they pretty much inversed the dynamic with Sally portraying Sonic and Sonic portraying Tails.

After however newer characters have been introduced and character development, it becomes apparent that even with the derailment of Sonic's character that the "new" Sally couldn't still be as mature as she once was let alone be a good leader. Not that is, unless she stopped really being an FF.

QUOTE

Sally's displayed insecurities and fears, but her character is that of someone who's had to become mature beyond her years, since she's a mother figure for a lot of her friends.

It's understandable to try being strong for those you care about, but that doesn't mean there are some flaws you have trouble dealing with in spite of that. Second, I don't really see Sally as a mother figure for a lot of her friends anymore. In the end, Mary Sues may have perfectly reasonable explanations as to why they are idealized. It doesn't change the fact that they are idealized, and pretty much bend characterizations and/or relationships of other characters, and hell even reality itself to fit.

#57 Lord Exor

Evil Incarnate

Fellow FUSer
465 posts

Gender:Male
Location:A tank.

Posted 24 September 2008 - 11:45 AM

Sues can be canon characters. Just look at Mara Jade from Star Wars.

#58 Guest_bossmanham_*

GUESTS

Posted 24 September 2008 - 12:49 PM

I doubt the Sally Sonic naysayers have been Sonic fans very long. I don't see how anyone who grew up with SonSal in the beginning could get used to the utter FAIL that is SonAmy. It really has never even manifested. Sonic never returns her advances (unless he did in Sonic X, which I refuse to damage my eyes watching). It's completely one sided and BORING! SonSal have a canonical history that is at least 18 years old.

#59 Guest_Miko_*

GUESTS

Posted 24 September 2008 - 01:28 PM

QUOTE ("bossmanham":7uwmvtds)

I doubt the Sally Sonic naysayers have been Sonic fans very long.

1. I have been here since the begginning and grew up with SatAM
2. A lot of the oldest "SegaSAWNIK" fans have enjoyed the franchise since the begginning majority of them have been here at LEAST a decade.

QUOTE

I don't see how anyone who grew up with SonSal in the beginning could get used to the utter FAIL that is SonAmy.

Not everyone who dislikes SonSal likes SonAmy. Sonic/No one, Sonic/Mina, etc.

QUOTE

It really has never even manifested.

As far as we know. It's possible Sonic can like Amy, and is left for the fan to decide. Since it's an ongoing series, the romance (if it's there) isn't going to be resolved and then become boring. Its just separate tastes.

QUOTE

Sonic never returns her advances (unless he did in Sonic X, which I refuse to damage my eyes watching). It's completely one sided and BORING! SonSal have a canonical history that is at least 18 years old.

SonAmy's came from a manga published one year before SatAM so technically it's been a pairing known to the Sonic franchise longer. Second of all, rhe "canoness" of a "romantic" relationship has become is not always as interesting to people as the dynamic itself.

#60 Morgan

Fellow FUSer

Fellow FUSer
3,509 posts

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 01:57 PM

QUOTE ("bossmanham":2bq868c1)

Sonic never returns her advances (unless he did in Sonic X, which I refuse to damage my eyes watching).

He didn't that I remember. I think his relationship to Amy was about the same as it was in the game.... I guess maybe with the exception of one episode where he went to her house with some flowers and she was pissed off at him because she thought he was dead. I could be wrong, but that's pretty much the only one of that I remember.