27 replies to this topic

[DotNetDemon]

So I read this story last week. Long story short, woman (the florist) has a gay friend (ths customer) that's been a customer for over a decade (Seattle, WA area). Gay friend is getting married, asked florist to supply flowers for wedding. Florist said she couldn't because of her relationship with Jesus Christ. Now the is suing the woman for consumer discrimination; the ACLU is also threatening to sue on behalf of the couple "unless she agrees to provide flowers without discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation, publish a letter of apology in the newspaper and donate $5,000 to a local youth center, in lieu of attorneys' fees."

Question to you guys: can a privately-owned business (i.e., businesses that are not "creatures of the state" and are sole-proprietorships, partnerships, etc.) truly refuse service to anyone?

My personal opinion (since I know it'll no doubt come up): it's just flowers, for pete's sake. I also feel that providing flowers isn't going to conflict with one's personal beliefs. But, that's just my two cents.

Edit: Dammit... this showed up in General Discussion instead of The Debate. This is what I get for not having my morning coffee first. Can one of the mods move it please?

[RedAuthar]

Ask and it shall be done....

If I'm not sleeping.


I usually try to stay out of Hot topics, specifically ones I generally don't care on, however if it is a privately owned business she has the right to refuse anyone. That being said, the refusee does have the right to sue back. The ACLU should not be involved.

Also while I know Weddings are supposedly a special time and such....really? Over Flowers? Flowers you could probably get elsewhere? Yeah. Hope you feel special egotist.

[ILOVEVHS]

Religion and commercialism have no place together in the same room.

If he wants flowers, give them to him! The point isn't Jesus, it's money!

[Uncle Ben]

This is bullshit. Seriously the rest of the world is ok with Gay people and we are the only ones who seemingly have a problem with it (other than the Middle East but thats cause of Religious reasons). I had class with a few gay people and they are just average people, they arent different, they are just regular people and they get descrimitated against cause of sexual preference??? What the hell man. Intollerant people.

Whatever happened to "Land of the Free", people are being descriminated over the dumbest reasons, and she uses Religion has her excuse?? This is why i'm Atheist/Agnostic: We like people for who they are, and we judge people for who they are, not just morals or religous beliefs...

Shame on this woman for being inconsiderate... he was a customer for 10 years and cause he wanted flowers for his wedding shes against it??

[DotNetDemon]

The point isn't Jesus, it's money!

If I could blow this up into a billboard, I would. This is one of the best quotes (and most truthful) I have ever seen

[furrykef]

Religion and commercialism have no place together in the same room.

If he wants flowers, give them to him! The point isn't Jesus, it's money!

While I agree that the whole affair isn't the florist's business... do you listen to yourself? Businesses doing things for money rather than out of any sense of morals or ethics is responsible for a lot of the problems we have nowadays.

(Just for the record, I'm an atheist, and I don't like seeing religion invoked this way either...)

[RedAuthar]

Religion and commercialism have no place together in the same room.

If he wants flowers, give them to him! The point isn't Jesus, it's money!

While I agree that the whole affair isn't the florist's business... do you listen to yourself? Businesses doing things for money rather than out of any sense of morals or ethics is responsible for a lot of the problems we have nowadays.

(Just for the record, I'm an atheist, and I don't like seeing religion invoked this way either...)

I have to agree with Kef here.

Specifically when in other Debates we're complaining that doing things just for the money is wrong (examples: Disney Shutting down LucasArts and Penders Suing Archie Comics).

Also, while most of you say you aren't religious, I am. And I believe you shouldn't put off your Religion just because of business or politics or because of what is popular.

Now you should not belittle people for their beliefs, you also are not required to support their choices if you believe they are wrong.

[ILOVEVHS]

That's true, but they need to show more respect, religion or not.

(Cough)Chick-Fil-A(cough)

[RedAuthar]

Except if you read the Full Story, she was respectful. She Respectfully declined their request due to her personal beliefs. They "respected" her opinion and left. Then the whole lawsuit showed up. If any disrespect happened, they disrespected her opinion. Which they technically didn't really. Actually it's ACLU that is blowing the whole thing outta proportion.

Though I personally believe if they couple respect her work as they claim, they should also respect her religion and let her choose.

[DotNetDemon]

Personally I think the whole thing got blown out of proportion. But, I can understand why they (the couple) would be upset since they have a personal relationship with the lady. At the same time, I can't help but channel Fry...

[salamander]

If she were respectful she'd put her personal beliefs aside and not discriminate against her customers. She was not asked to participate in the ceremony or do anything other than a typical sales transaction. No matter how "nicely" she enforced a discriminatory policy, she's deliberately making a statement.

I simply don't get why people think homosexuality is something to fight against, or how non-traditional relationships between consenting adults is harmful at all or has any effect at all on "traditional" marriage. You can still have the most old fashioned marraige you want to, nobody's stopping you. If you think being with someone of the same sex is just wrong, and against your religion, then congratulations, you don't have to do that! But recognize that hey, there actually exists other religions, and non-religious beliefs, and not everyone ascribes to the same set of beliefs you do, and part of getting along in society is getting along despite those differences.
If you hate someone else's relationship so much that you'll refuse to sell them flowers to celebrate it, then.. I can't say I have much sympathy for you.

[RedAuthar]

But the reverse must be true too.

Why is it okay for the Gay Couple to discriminate against her religious beliefs?

While she did take a stand yes, her other stance by agreeing is saying "I support Homosexual Couples". If her religion says that's not okay, she then did what was her best option. She didn't refuse selling to gay people, she refused to do up the flowers for a wedding because of her own beliefs to avoid supporting something that is against her religion.

[salamander]

They were not asking her to make an exception for them. They were asking her to do what she would do for anyone else. That is not discriminatory.
Selling flowers is not an endorsement. She was not asked to participate in or endorse the ceremony in any way. She was just refusing them service because they are homosexuals.

[RedAuthar]

Wrong.

One, if providing the flowers is not supporting then denying them can't be unsporting.
Two, if she had refused anyone else would it have been a big deal? Why is it because she refused a homosexual couple she because of her beliefs she's the badguy?
Three, Providing Flowers for a Wedding IS contributing, which is supporting.
Four, They can go elsewhere. Why MUST it be her? They ARE forcing her to make the exception against her Religion.

[furrykef]

Why is it okay for the Gay Couple to discriminate against her religious beliefs?

Why's it OK for black people to discriminate against racists?

I think this would be a very different story if it were an interracial couple getting married and interracial marriage contradicted the florist's beliefs. Homosexuality isn't a choice any more than race is.

[RedAuthar]

Personally I have been on the receiving end of a black person using racism to justify his actions. If it wasn't for a friend of mine vouching for me that I hadn't been racist it could have gotten pretty bad.

Homosexuality isn't a choice any more than race is.

Half true. While I believe you can be born with stronger attraction (heck maybe even only....genetic coding...who understands it?) to the same gender or the opposite gender, it is still your choice to act upon them. Some people are born with the desire to burn things, some people are born disliking certain foods, some people are born with the desire to climb the monkey bars and hang upside down and not let anyone else on the monkey bars (hate those kids). These are all mind sets. None are particularly good or bad. All mind sets can be changed. You can technically be born homosexual, and you can technically be born heterosexual. However since people have chosen to change their preferences, that means anyone can if they want to. If you don't want to, don't, and don't let anyone tell you that you have to.


That being true for religion. Religious people don't just turn their religion off when they leave the house. Their beliefs guide their actions throughout their day. And personally I believe it is unfair for people to say "you can't hide behind religion" during debates when technically they are hiding behind their own beliefs as well.

You can't justify freeing your own beliefs while telling someone else they have to restrict theirs. If Homosexuals want people to not belittle their beliefs about love and marriage, they can't belittle someone else's.

The Florist Believes Homosexual Relations are not appropriate. She should NOT be FORCED by ACLU or anyone else that she can't have that opinion. I'm not saying she should have refused the Homosexual Couple. And I'm not saying they can't sue her for her actions (heck I would've if it had been some random shop, but since they considered each other friends....I dunno). But the ACLU should have no say in this. They are saying she can't believe in her religion when she's working and that is wrong, because that is exactly what they claim to fight against, infringing on an individual's civil liberties.

The ACLU's actions in this is my problem, if I didn't make that clear before. Not the Homosexual couple.

[furrykef]

I still fail to see how this refutes my "interracial marriage" analogy. Yes, a gay person can choose not to marry another person of the same sex. Well, a black person can choose not to marry a white person too. Interracial marriage is a choice (much more than gay marriage, even, since nobody's arguing that there is a genetic basis for preferring a partner of a different race), but how would people be reacting if the florist refused to give flowers to an interracial couple?

They are saying she can't believe in her religion when she's working and that is wrong, because that is exactly what they claim to fight against, infringing on an individual's civil liberties.

There's actually a lot of religious stuff that would violate the law if you actually do it. Suppose your religion requires you to make live animal sacrifices and your jurisdiction has a law against cruelty to animals. And if you start allowing exceptions to the law for religious reasons, then, thanks to human nature, you will get people inventing religions just to get around any law they want.

The ACLU does annoy me from time to time. Even when I think they're right (like the inappropriateness of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance), I often feel they need to learn to pick their battles.

[RedAuthar]

I still fail to see how this refutes my "interracial marriage" analogy. Yes, a gay person can choose not to marry another person of the same sex. Well, a black person can choose not to marry a white person too. Interracial marriage is a choice (much more than gay marriage, even, since nobody's arguing that there is a genetic basis for preferring a partner of a different race), but how would people be reacting if the florist refused to give flowers to an interracial couple?

Uh....probably the same way?


Maybe I'm just stupid but I've never thought of Interracial marriages as a big deal. Maybe that's just me.

There's actually a lot of religious stuff that would violate the law if you actually do it. Suppose your religion requires you to make live animal sacrifices and your jurisdiction has a law against cruelty to animals. And if you start allowing exceptions to the law for religious reasons, then, thanks to human nature, you will get people inventing religions just to get around any law they want.

People still argue that animals raised for eating is cruelty to animals. Animals raised for Religious Sacrifice wouldn't be much different. Same controversy.

And there was actually a court case about some people making up a religion just so they could take illegal drugs (forget the name...). It supposedly establishes the rules for such an occasion but since the supreme court throws out its own rules left and right I guess it don't matter.

The thing is US Constitution says that it is a NATURAL RIGHT for one to Practice their Religion. If the Florists religion says that Homosexual relationships are inappropriate and that she should not support them, she has the right to believe that. She then has the right to deny a homosexual customer service in a store she owns. That is her right. Said homosexual customer then has the right to sue her because they feel mistreated. That is his or her right. No Rights were infringed upon.

Again however I think it was a mistake to deny the couple the flowers.

[furrykef]

Maybe I'm just stupid but I've never thought of Interracial marriages as a big deal.

Today, it pretty much isn't. In the 1950s (or earlier) in the American South, though...

People still argue that animals raised for eating is cruelty to animals. Animals raised for Religious Sacrifice wouldn't be much different. Same controversy.

The difference is that raising animals to eat them does not violate any laws. Setting a live goat on fire probably violates a law in at least some jurisdiction in the US.

The thing is US Constitution says that it is a NATURAL RIGHT for one to Practice their Religion. If the Florists religion says that Homosexual relationships are inappropriate and that she should not support them, she has the right to believe that.

Yes, she does.

She then has the right to deny a homosexual customer service in a store she owns.

No, she doesn't -- at least, not automatically. Having the right to believe something and having the right to practice your belief are two different things. Saying "it's my religion!" doesn't give you the freedom to violate any laws, even if it really is your religion.

Generally, freedom of religion in America (and probably everywhere else) ends when your practice of your religion infringes on somebody else's rights, which is exactly what is happening here (assuming you believe being able to buy flowers at a certain location is a right, which is admittedly quite a can of worms itself).

[RedAuthar]

She then has the right to deny a homosexual customer service in a store she owns.

No, she doesn't -- at least, not automatically. Having the right to believe something and having the right to practice your belief are two different things. Saying "it's my religion!" doesn't give you the freedom to violate any laws, even if it really is your religion.

Generally, freedom of religion in America (and probably everywhere else) ends when your practice of your religion infringes on somebody else's rights, which is exactly what is happening here (assuming you believe being able to buy flowers at a certain location is a right, which is admittedly quite a can of worms itself).

But forcing her to do something that is against her religious beliefs (supporting a Gay Marriage) is infringement on her rights. You forget that sense she owns the business she has the right to say "no I don't want to take that job". If she does not feel comfortable prepping flowers for their wedding, nobody has the right to say she has to.

If she cannot use her religion to justify refusing the customer then, then the customer's homosexuality should not be used as an excuse why she can't refuse them. She can refuse anyone and does not have to give a reason. It's her store.