61 replies to this topic

[LogiTeeka]

Yes, true. But at least in the Zelda game, the story tie them together, which it's not the case in Sonic games.

Really? I heard a lot of gamers say the games contain their own separate plots which don't really connect with other games in the series. This made it hard for a lot of fans to construct a timeline of the series, until the official timeline was recently released.

[Alextendo]

Yes, true. But at least in the Zelda game, the story tie them together, which it's not the case in Sonic games.

Really? I heard a lot of gamers say the games contain their own separate plots which don't really connect with other games in the series. This made it hard for a lot of fans to construct a timeline of the series, until the official timeline was recently released.

Well, apparently for the Zelda serie, they have a story that could fit all together (maybe not without problem, but still). For the Sonic serie, it's more complicated. Sonic Adventure act like if this game was designed to be a reboot. Because the Adventure established new element that doesn't tie with the original game (or tie a little), it make it like a new beggening, where everything that where made before doesn't seem to have ever exist in the franchise. I still have to mention the mess of a disaster that Sonic Generation have to offer with all this broken universe. All of this was connect all together in the same game and it doesn't feel right. Many different style that doesn't connect are now attached to each other.

[LogiTeeka]

No, "Sonic Adventure" was a direct continuation of the classic games. Tails renembers his first encounter with Sonic (as told in the Japanese "Sonic 2" manual), Knuckles and Angel Island reappear and Sonic/Tails remark that he's been tricked again, Amy has a flashback of the events of "Sonic CD", Mecha Sonic and Metal Sonic make cameos, and the Flickies of "Sonic 3D Blast" return.

Green Hill Zone returns in "Sonic Adventure 2", and "Sonic Battle" reveals that both games took place on South Island, the Island where "Sonic 1" took place.

[Alextendo]

So? Some element are back, but the overall is different. After all, the Adventure take some element established before and give them a new revamp or begenning. Sonic 06 was set to be a reboot too, and this game take alot of older element, just like Adventure did.

[LogiTeeka]

So an art style change is okay for "Zelda" and not "Sonic"? That's a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

[Alextendo]

So an art style change is okay for "Zelda" and not "Sonic"? That's a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

As i said before, the story in Zelda help to keep the contiunity together, but the Sonic franchise don't do that. Don't call me hypocritical for this, i don't have control over the franchise, ya know?

Also, the Zelda franchise do a better job to keep thing consistent within the game world. The artistic style may change, but we feel that we are in the same world, same universe. On top of that, the story somehow manage to connect every game in the same franchise.

For Sonic, we start with a cartoony world, then a realistic world with little connexion with the original game, then the style change again and character change their personnality here and there.

So what i mean is that the Sonic game are not consistent within their own world, with too few connexion to keep them together. Result: It's a mess!

[LogiTeeka]

As i said before, the story in Zelda help to keep the contiunity together, but the Sonic franchise don't do that. Don't call me hypocritical for this, i don't have control over the franchise, ya know?

Also, the Zelda franchise do a better job to keep thing consistent within the game world. The artistic style may change, but we feel that we are in the same world, same universe. On top of that, the story somehow manage to connect every game in the same franchise.

For Sonic, we start with a cartoony world, then a realistic world with little connexion with the original game, then the style change again and character change their personnality here and there.

So what i mean is that the Sonic game are not consistent within their own world, with too few connexion to keep them together. Result: It's a mess!

I'm not saying you do. It just seems odd to accuse something just because they're different looking.

And as far as I know, Sonic has kept a consistent storyline (for the most part). The storylines are loose, but they all have connections. Actual plotholes are things only fans will worry over (like the shatered moon and Gerald's true intentions).

In terms of actual reboots, only "Sonic 06" comes into mind. Reason why is that the story contradicts/ignores previous storylines. For example, in the beginning, Sonic has never heard of Eggman before and asks the townsfolk about him; Shadow also has no recollection of his past (unlike "Sonic Battle") and works as an agent of G.U.N.; and Blaze's origin from Silver's future contradicts her alternate universe origins in "Sonic Rush". The Chaos Emeralds are also given a different backstory.

But since "Sonic 06" was such a disaster, Sonic Team ignored it and went back to a more basic premise. Even though the current games are exteamely loose in story, they still have continuity. "Sonic Unleashed" marks the debute of Orbot (a prototype at least), and "Sonic Colors" (DS version) features nearly the whole cast from the games.

Crisis City in "Sonic Generations" may seem a bit confusing for some fanatics, but Eggman has control of the Time Eater, a creature that can travel through and alter time; thus reopening areas that were erased from existence.

[Alextendo]

Sonic 06 try to tie many element from previous game, not just gameplay-wise, but also story-wise. I suggest you to watch this video review of this game by the channel of ClementJ642: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dCwwxCL4iyw . Be warned, it's a 7 part review, but he explain alot of things better than my english allow me to.

For the ''Japanese'' contiunity, i stand for what i said: It doesn't work. The original work together, but not with other game, such as the Adventure series. Same thing could be said about Adventure, because Adventure 1 and 2 can work together (story-wise), but doesn't fit with the older game. The Rider serie don't work with themself, let along with the other game. Every new Sonic game seem to have all their own contiunity. You should watch the ''Sonic Dissected'' video serie, where two person try to understand the Sonic franchise as a whole and make logical explanation out of this. They talk about the character, the story, etc. Watch it and tell me what you think: http://rogerregorrog...prt-1-323856132 . Also, they don't talk from their ''opinion'' perspective, but rather based on fact.

[LogiTeeka]

As I said, the stories are loose. They don't rely heavily on story.

It's like looking for continuity in the Mario games.

[Alextendo]

As I said, the stories are loose. They don't rely heavily on story.

It's like looking for continuity in the Mario games.

At least mario is consintent within is game world as well.

[LogiTeeka]

Since when? The only games I'm weary of having any continuity are the RPG series (which some fans believe take place in different universes) and some of the 3D titles (though they're just as iffy).

Personally, I'm not the type who overanalyzes everything. Heck, we're arguing over the fictional universe containing a fast-moving blue hedgehog that fights an egg-shaped mad scientist for heavens sake! Overanalyzing stuff like this sucks the fun out of the series and turns it into a frustrating/boring school test in which no one has the right answers. Soon, everything you enjoyed about the series becomes a problem and you begin to hate it.

If this is how you view the series, that's fine with me. For me, I see the connections and don't bother worrying about the little problems.

[Alextendo]

I'm talking about consistence, NOT STORY! Mario does not really have a strong story to rely to, but at least the Mario game feel like it's within the same world. Sonic World share too many difference between each other. Like i said, the original Sonic game are nothing like the Adventure serie. Not only it's very different from the artistic perspective, but also it's very different from the story perspective as well. The world is different, the story is different. It's like a completely different world and universe alltogether!

When you said that i ''overanalyse'' the serie too much, i just want you to know that even if you don't, it should be obvious that Sonic keep changing in a way that the franchise suffer from this. Why not Sonic could build more from the same universe instead of created a different world in almost every game?

[LogiTeeka]

I belive this is the word you're looking for: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

Only instead of a character, it's the entire world.

[Alextendo]

I belive this is the word you're looking for: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

Only instead of a character, it's the entire world.

Yeah, i guess it's the best way to describe that. Sometime, i would need to improve my english more than what it is now in order to help me to explain thing more like the way i would want to.

But yeah, i could give you one good exemple in the Mario universe of something that went wrong: Super Mario Bros 2. This game is very different from the other Mario game: No fire flower or item box, no goomba or any familiar ennemy, etc. In fact, when you look at the development of this game, we can realize that Mario 2 is in fact not a Mario game at all, but rather a japanese game released for the Famicom Disk System under the name of Doki Doki Panic. Then, Nintendo take this game and slap the name Mario on it and BAM, it's a Mario game.....execpt, not really. The fact that this game is good or not is not really what's make Mario 2 so divided by the fanbase, it's because it doesn't feel like a Mario game. Sure, Mario is here, Luigi too and other character. But the universe itself is nothing like Mario, it feel like a totally different world!

Sonic is more or less the same as Mario 2: the original game have a world established (according to some source, the world name is Mobius), then, all the colorfull and cartoony world of Sonic is now full of real world American city or something. In this case, is no longer about just being in a different place within the same world, but being in a different universe alltogether. In comparaison, if you go to a trip in a different country, you may expect to see a different culture, architecture, and maybe society. It's logic to find some difference between your country and the others. But if you go to a another country to find a green sky, people with 3 eyes and squid face, flying dogs and cats, entirelly different form of technologie, etc, it's more likely that you're no longer in the same world. The Sonic franchise is like that, it start off with a good start point, perfect to expend. But then, you are in something that doesn't look the same at all. Like the picture i showed earlier, a Mobius Island and a New York city style don't fit within the same universe. This is why it's hard to find out what is really the world of Sonic. It's because it KEEP CHANGING!

Unfortunatly, the same keep hapening to the character as well. Take Amy for exemple, at first, she was a fan of Sonic. Now, she's obsess about Sonic like a freaking maniac! Or Knuckles, who was the guardian of the Master Emerald. Now, he's......heu...well....he's...there. Beside some portable spin-off, like the Advance serie or Sonic Chronicles, we haven't seen the master emerald for awhile! In fact, i don't think that we will ever see the Master Emerald anymore up to this point! I can understand that sometime, the developing team didn't find any reason to bring back some character, so they change him for story purpose, but in the case of Knuckles, they did nothing to him.

What i mean is, if the Sonic Team don't find any good reason to add the Master Emerald to the story, then why bring Knuckles? After all, the Knuckles duty is to watch this damn rock. So without the Master Emerald in the story, we don't need Knuckles. But they don't want to let Knuckles died like Mighty or Nack, so they have to give him new purpose, in order to have an excuse to bring him back in every new game. But they didn't, so Knuckles is just here for the sake of being here!

This cause more problem, like they killed the purpose of their own character. Character like Amy or Knuckles don't even behave or act the way they used to. Some fan may liked them for who they were. But if you change the character personnality, you killed what's make them interesting. But Sega doesn't stop there, they created more character instead of developing more those who was created before. Having alot of character is not the main problem. It's more of how you write them and Sega does it very poorly.

[LogiTeeka]

That's understandable. I mean, in "Sonic 1", Sonic is said to be 10 years old. He grew up on South Island and later went out to explore the world on his own. Five years later (in universe), look at him now... he's explored nearly every corner of the planet and beyond.

[Alextendo]

Where Sonic grown up change depending of different interpretation, so it's hard to said anything about this.

[LogiTeeka]

I was mainly refering to the SegaSonic canon. He was born on Christmas Island (wherever that is) and grew up on South Island.

[Alextendo]

Even the SegaSonic canon can be different (Americain or Japanese interpretation).

[Arekkisu]

You know, I was thinking that I'd never heard anyone in SA2, call it earth, then when you posted quotes up I saw that "Citizens of Earth" an thought to myself. "Why didn't I think of that" I used that quote a lot for a project that never saw the light of day. Also it's probably the most memorable villain speech (at least for me) ever.

[GamemasterAnthony]

Hmm... *looks at Sonic comic map of Mobius*

Guys...your opinion, if I may ask for it. I'm working on a reboot of my fanfiction and need to find a good place for the Hedgehog Kingdom of Mobara. (Kingdom ruled by Queen Aleena in Sonic Underground before Robotnik took over. Mobara is just my name for it.) Do you think it would make sense for it to be in Soumerica...possibly further south?

Sorry...looking at both maps made me think of it...