49 replies to this topic

[bwrosas]

Spoiler

What could have been.
by ~Vorahk295, 5 hours, 53 minutes ago
Journals / Personal
Another trope title, and hey, I'm not writing this in the middle of the night!

First off, thanks to sadly ex-Deviant , I can confirm something, and then immediately say 'called it', as I am wont to do. Through email, he sent my a planel from the CHaotix SU arc, which shows Mighty being confronted by Beauregard. Silhouetted in the doorway is none other than Bunnie.

Ahem...

CALLED IT!

Now, onto the other half of this. Again, for the uninformed, 'What Could Have Been' is a trope that describes fans wondering about what a series would have been like if those in control of it didn't act like a bunch of fucktarts.

Normally, this relates to early concepts leaked by the creators later on, but here, we're just thinking better ideas up for ourselves. has an epic rewrite of 230, and is also starting something in a similar vein from 235-6. I myself have ripped this arc apart and written endings for it that work better than what we're likely to get, counting the HISHES and Alterniverses, seven times. Seven. has created one that was turned into a full story by someone else. We all do it.

So, here's my latest thought, as to how this arc could have been better:

THe comic has three plots at the moment:

1) Mecha Sally
2) King Naugus
3) Silver's Traitor

Silver's Traitor is an underlying subplot, so let's focus on the other two. Flynn has chosen Mecha Sally to be the A-plot for his two year story, and as we all know, it doesn't really have the potential to be a good, well-written, solid story, not for two years anyway. Fallen hero stories are normally shorter, simply to avoid continuity lockouts and keep the status quo, and this is the way they should be. We don't care if the evil version is really cool or not. Get them back to normal and in-character again so we can read about the characters we know and love, and not some cliche villain with a hero's face (CoughSallyCoughGeoffreyCoughFionaCough).

Meanwhil, we're mostly ignoring the King Naugus plot, which, in my opinion is a huge fuckup. If there's any story listed here that has the potential to be a two year plot, it's the takeover of the heroes' home by one of their strongest villains. This story has the potential to be epic. This should be the A plot. Hell, you could still do Mecha Sally, but have it end faster:

FIrst year:
Sally's robotization.
Rotor's abdication.
Naugus' takeover, and steady removal of the council's power, all the while brainwashing them into being mindless servants anyway.
The Acorn family leave quietly in the middle of the night.
Nicole's exile.
Bunnie's limbs being encased in crystal for trying to stop Naugus, leaving her paralyzed.
Antoine being badly injured, and forced to stay on the sidelines while protecting Bunnie from Metal Sonic, who doesn't explode, but rather is taken over by Nicole.
Amadeus' reconciliation with Tails still happens, because it's the only good scene in the official story.
Nicole's Metal and wreckage of 2.0 are used by Rotor to make Shard.
The Secret FF are formed.
Sonic, Tails, and Nicole depart to try and save Sally.
Geoffrey attempts to defect, but it caught by the council and imprisoned.
Naugus' body and mind stat to seperate into the three mages after the Genesis Wave.
In desperation, Naugus takes over Geoffrey's body.
Sonic fights Mecha Sally, while Tails and Nicole hack into her, and free her.
The FF reunite.
Naugus-as-Geoffrey reveals himself to the council, citing the slow death of his old body and Geoffrey's betrayal as justification. The council are brainwashed, so they accept.
Eggman allows Snively to rescue the Iron Queen, planning to use her to regain control of Sally.
Naugus targets the Freedom FIghters, trying to turn the people against them through the fact that they are protecting Nicole, claiming that Nicole is brainwashed and Mecha Sally is a fake.
Some, still under Naugus' control, agree, others don't.

Second year:

The Death Egg attacks Angel Island, hoping to draw out the FF and allow Eggman to steal the Master Emerald.
The Freedom Fighters go to stop it. Most of them are held off by Team Metal, including Neo Metal Sonic.
During the fight, Regina manages to gain control of Sally.
Eggman manages to get his hands on the Master Emerald.
The threat of losing Sally again and the close proximity to the Emerald give Archie's Sonic his first Negative Super Form.
Dark/Darkspine/Super Sonic destroys most of Team Metal and the Death Egg's engines, forcing Eggman, Snively, and Regina to flee, freeing Sally as well. Dark/Darkspine/Super Sonic uses the Master Emerald to warp them all back to Angel Island. He then teleports the FF home, and uses his powers to heal Antoine, and break the crystal on Bunnie's limbs, putting them back in the fight, before he powers down.
Eggman, Snively, and Regina launch the Air Fleet against the city, and Regina takes over the nanites. The people panic, and Amadeus points out that this wouldn't be the case if Nicole was there to protect the nanites, and the peoples' own eagerness to be rid of her caused this.
A huge battle breaks out, which lasts for several issues.
Geoffrey is freed.
Nicole regains control of the city, and uses the nanites to destroy what remains of the armies.
The council are freed from Naugus' control.
Eggman's mech is destroyed, and he is captured. Regina is helpless without tech to control, and is caught too. Snively runs away, planning anew.
Naugus is captured as well. He is forced to deroboticize Sallym and then carted off the prison with Eggman and Regina.
Elias is reinstated.
On board the crashed Death Egg, Neo Metal Sonic's optics light up, and it announces that it will become the ultimate Overlord.


Doesn't that sound better?

[LogiTeeka]

Huh, not bad.

The only thing that I didn't agree with was the use of Dark Sonic from "Sonic X" during the Angel Island bit. Ian has stated several times before that he can't use the character. Why not just make it Super Sonic? He's just as powerful and effective; he doesn't have to go all dark and edgy.

[RedAuthar]

Technically Dark Sonic doesn't belong to Archie....they'd have to get permission from the owners of Sonic X to use him.

[Uncle Ben]

i have a feeling he's spot on too

[LaserX5]

Huh, not bad. I mean, Vorahk295 can be a real douche at times, but this idea is something I wouldn't mind.

Wow, that's pretty harsh of you to say. You ever talk to the guy? He's actually a pretty nice person who does his homework about Sonic.

Sure, he's very hard on Flynn, but the points he makes are mostly valid whenever he critiques his work.

The only thing that I didn't agree with was the use of Dark Sonic from "Sonic X" during the Angel Island bit. Ian has stated several times before that he can't use the character.

I really don't get why Dark Sonic cannot be used. I mean, the more I look at this character, the more I realize he's got alot of story potential.

[Uncle Ben]

Huh, not bad. I mean, Vorahk295 can be a real douche at times, but this idea is something I wouldn't mind.

Wow, that's pretty harsh of you to say. You ever talk to the guy? He's actually a pretty nice person who does his homework about Sonic.

Sure, he's very hard on Flynn, but the points he makes are mostly valid whenever he critiques his work.

Some of the stuff i see i can agree with Laser

[LogiTeeka]

Wow, that's pretty harsh of you to say. You ever talk to the guy? He's actually a pretty nice person who does his homework about Sonic.

Sure, he's very hard on Flynn, but the points he makes are mostly valid whenever he critiques his work.

Okay, I was a bit harsh there. But that was my impression from reading his comments posted on DeviantArt and such. It's like he's hellbent on criticizing people simply for the sake of it. I'm sure he means well by trying to make his points clear, but I wish he would lay off the unnecessary bashing.

[LaserX5]

Okay, I was a bit harsh there. But that was my impression from reading his comments posted on DeviantArt and such. It's like he's hellbent on criticizing people simply for the sake of it. I'm sure he means well by trying to make his points clear, but I wish he would lay off the unnecessary bashing.

Well, he is a big fan of Linkara, so I'm not surprised at all his style has rubbed off on him.

Also, what critiquing do you think is unnecessary exactly?

[LogiTeeka]

Well, he is a big fan of Linkara, so I'm not surprised at all his style has rubbed off on him.

Also, what critiquing do you think is unnecessary exactly?

Maybe it's just me, but it really annoys me when people spend most of their time ranting only on the negative aspects. When I critique something, I like to include the stuff which I thought worked. I don't solely focus on the negatives. But even than, I don't bother trying to be harsh towards something I don't like- unless its insulting or offensive. I prefer to acknowledge the positives, as well as suggest better alternatives/ideas for the negatives. That way, you'll recognize these problems in the future and be able to avoid making similar mistakes.

I also hate it when people make things a bigger deal than what they usually are. What isn't that bad at first suddenly becomes a big issue with others. A good example would be the "green eyes" scandal with "Sonic 4". Like the old saying goes: "You're making a mountain out of a molehill."

Normally, I don't get upset over small details. What I do hate, though, are problems that were deliberately done on purpose. I won't deny that Ian's story arc hasn't been that great so far, but it's really not as bad as most people are making it seem. Most of the story's problems weren't done on purpose; they're the direct results of overstrict mandates, a choppy editorial, and a scandal over copyrighted characters. I've seen worser things happen in the comic before (Sonic Live, Image Crossover, "the slap", ect.). And all those were deliberate.

[LaserX5]

Maybe it's just me, but it really annoys me when people spend most of their time ranting only on the negative aspects. When I critique something, I like to include the stuff which I thought worked. I don't solely focus on the negatives. But even than, I don't bother trying to be harsh towards something I don't like- unless its insulting or offensive. I prefer to acknowledge the positives, as well as suggest better alternatives/ideas for the negatives. That way, you'll recognize these problems in the future and be able to avoid making similar mistakes.

Well, he does make suggestions on how it could be better. Not every rant is about the negative aspect of the story.

I also hate it when people make things a bigger deal than what they usually are. What isn't that bad at first suddenly becomes a big issue with others. A good example would be the "green eyes" scandal with "Sonic 4". Like the old saying goes: "You're making a mountain out of a molehill."

Well, I think comparing this to Sonic's green eyes is apples and oranges.

Green eyes is just a minor detail. Story plots done a certain way when it didn't have to be is not.

Normally, I don't get upset over small details. What I do hate, though, are problems that were deliberately done on purpose. I won't deny that Ian's story arc hasn't been that great so far, but it's really not as bad as most people are making it seem. Most of the story's problems weren't done on purpose; they're the direct results of overstrict mandates, a choppy editorial, and a scandal over copyrighted characters. I've seen worser things happen in the comic before (Sonic Live, Image Crossover, "the slap", ect.). And all those were deliberate.

Ok, fair point. There have been issues with deliberate garbage in it.

But, I really think saying these rants making a big deal out of small details is not a fair evaluation. We're not complaining about small things like how a character is drawn or even how much spotlight they get.

This is about characters we love getting the shaft, portrayed as stupid, incompetent and cold, adding unnecessary shockvalue and having dramatic moments that go nowhere.

Nicole's exile for example. What was the point of that? Nothing good came from it. No intriguing plot points, character development, nothing... it was mostly, "Oh, you're gone. and then it's "Ok, you can come back now."

Even how she came back was utterly ludicrous. She's brought back on the advice of a new Council member that starts that exact same day? How stupid does Ian think we are?

I'm sorry if I appear to be ranting to be here, but Nicole was treated so wrong, and then Ian couldn't even make something happen from it to make it worth our time to see.

[LogiTeeka]

Well, he does make suggestions on how it could be better. Not every rant is about the negative aspect of the story.

It sure seemed negative whenever I read his comments. This take at the story arc is the first sign of a positive suggestion I've read from him.

Well, I think comparing this to Sonic's green eyes is apples and oranges.

Green eyes is just a minor detail. Story plots done a certain way when it didn't have to be is not.

From what I've read so far, the story hasn't harmed the series in any serious way. The only real casualties so far have been Penders' characters being removed for the time being. But there's still a chance that they'll survive and make a comeback. We'll just have to wait and see.

Sure, Sally was roboticized and Antoine was badly injured; but none of them were permanently killed off. In fact, from what I've heard, Bunnie's gonna make an appearance in the latest "Sonic Universe" story arc. Also, Rotor is still about and more powerful than ever with his nanite battlesuit, so there's no need to worry about the SatAM cast being dropped from the series.

And with Sally's new design recently announced, we know for sure that she's gonna be un-roboticized sometime soon.

Ok, fair point. There have been issues with deliberate garbage in it.

But, I really think saying these rants making a big deal out of small details is not a fair evaluation. We're not complaining about small things like how a character is drawn or even how much spotlight they get.

This is about characters we love getting the shaft, portrayed as stupid, incompetent and cold, adding unnecessary shockvalue and having dramatic moments that go nowhere.

Nicole's exile for example. What was the point of that? Nothing good came from it. No intriguing plot points, character development, nothing... it was mostly, "Oh, you're gone. and then it's "Ok, you can come back now."

Even how she came back was utterly ludicrous. She's brought back on the advice of a new Council member that starts that exact same day? How stupid does Ian think we are?

I'm sorry if I appear to be ranting to be here, but Nicole was treated so wrong, and then Ian couldn't even make something happen from it to make it worth our time to see.

Like I said, the story isn't perfect. In fact, my biggest problem with it were the repetitive fights across Mobius with Mecha Sally, who still hasn't done anything yet (though that may change). But this problem originated due to the editors wanting Ian to span the story across several issues. From what I've read, the story was originally much shorter than what was originally written.

[PuffinGrandeur]

Any idea that uses Dark Sonic is immediately dumb. No takebacks.

[LaserX5]

It sure seemed negative whenever I read his comments. This take at the story arc is the first sign of a positive suggestion I've read from him.

Well, ok, he doesn't do that with every single rant, but he has at times talked about what should have happened instead of what DID HAPPEN

From what I've read so far, the story hasn't harmed the series in any serious way. The only real casualties so far have been Penders' characters being removed for the time being. But there's still a chance that they'll survive and make a comeback. We'll just have to wait and see.

Sure, Sally was roboticized and Antoine was badly injured; but none of them were permanently killed off. In fact, from what I've heard, Bunnie's gonna make an appearance in the latest "Sonic Universe" story arc. Also, Rotor is still about and more powerful than ever with his nanite battlesuit, so there's no need to worry about the SatAM cast being dropped from the series.

And with Sally's new design recently announced, we know for sure that she's gonna be un-roboticized sometime soon.

I have a strong suspicion they'll all be back, but heavily Segafied, just like what we saw with Sally's new design.

Ugh, I so hate that look.

Like I said, the story isn't perfect. In fact, my biggest problem with it were the repetitive fights across Mobius with Mecha Sally, who still hasn't done anything yet (though that may change). But this problem originated due to the editors wanting Ian to span the story across several issues. From what I've read, the story was originally much shorter than what was originally written.

Where did you hear Paul told Ian to expand his story?

Any idea that uses Dark Sonic is immediately dumb. No takebacks.

I don't think so at all. For a one off plot, it could be a really epic story.

In fact, I'd love to see a climax where Eggman pushed Sonic's buttons so much he became that form in a rage and went absolutely berserk on him and his machines, maybe even to the point his friends had to stop Sonic due to losing all self control over his emotional state.

How I long to see another story where Sonic wants to cut Robotnik into pieces like he did in EndGame. For all it's controversies, that was the comic's greatest battle ever.

I doubt it'll ever be topped.

[Uncle Ben]

is Dark Sonic the one from Secret Rings??

[PuffinGrandeur]

It's stupid. It's really, really stupid. It's Sonic going Super Sayijin for no reason in a franchise where that's already present as a gag. It's the type of thing only a teenager could ever think was cool.
It's a tiny scene from Sonic X where Sonic gets glowy when he's angry, and then beats two robots who were built to counter him in seconds. Secret Rings is Darkspine Sonic.

This set of ideas has lots of problems, but it's easy enough to just say it's a bunch of fandom whining condensed into a story outline.

[LaserX5]

is Dark Sonic the one from Secret Rings??

No, it's originally from an episode of Sonic X in Season 3.

It's stupid. It's really, really stupid. It's Sonic going Super Sayijin for no reason in a franchise where that's already present as a gag. It's the type of thing only a teenager could ever think was cool.
It's a tiny scene from Sonic X where Sonic gets glowy when he's angry, and then beats two robots who were built to counter him in seconds.

I'll admit the whole scene with Dark Sonic's inception was mostly pointless considering that the robots didn't even put up a fight and Sonic only stayed as Dark Sonic for less than 30 seconds, even turning back to normal on Eggman's speech no less. Still, I think the concept of that form is really intriguing the more I think about it.

If it was properly explained and well written on how Sonic would turn into this form, how long he would stay that way, its pros/cons of its abilities and dangers, I would love to see it come back. This form could make his character all the more complex, something along the lines of STC's Sonic problems when dealing with Chaos Emeralds.

This set of ideas has lots of problems, but it's easy enough to just say it's a bunch of fandom whining condensed into a story outline.

You know, if you're going to say they're bad ideas, then please explain why.

Just labeling them as fandom whining isn't really fair on your part.

[LogiTeeka]

I have a strong suspicion they'll all be back, but heavily Segafied, just like what we saw with Sally's new design.

Ugh, I so hate that look.

I guess it's not for everyone. But we can all agree that it's much better than how she was previously depicted; with her curvy human-like body, large breasts, long hair and tiny hands. *shudder*

As long as she looks like a Sonic character, I'm perfectly fine with the new design.

Where did you hear Paul told Ian to expand his story?

I can't remember whether it was him or someone else at Archie.

Any idea that uses Dark Sonic is immediately dumb. No takebacks.

It depends on the depiction. The reason why most people like the "Dark Sonic" form is because "Sonic X" is the most widely known show featuring Sonic. And since the dark-form only appeared once in the entire series for a few minutes, it left many viewers confused as to what it was.

However, the concept isn't new. Fleetway's "Sonic the Comic" already did something similar with their depiction of Super Sonic. Instead of the Super Saiyan-wannabe as seen in the games, they depicted the super-form as a psychotic demon taking possession of Sonic's body that's willing to kill everything it sees (both enemies and friends). Just look up "Fleetway" on Google search and you're bound to find several pictures of the character.

As for which one I like better, that's a rather tough choice since I like both. I like the creepy/eerie look of Dark Sonic, but I also like the psychopathic appearance and personality of Fleetway's Super Sonic.

[PuffinGrandeur]

It's a complete shattering of what the character is, and a betrayal of his core concepts while again, being incredibly stupid. Fleetway's Super Sonic was better and it wasn't deep AT ALL.

I'm not going through the plotholes, or the multiple issue fight scene, the gigantic deus ex machina that Super Sonic is used as, or the fact that several characters just get dumped out entirely (bye Amy,) but the fact that the major theme is "nothing can happen to the status quo or characters unless it's reversed before there's any time to react" shows off just how much the writer doesn't really want to see good stories, just their beloved characters doing the same old shtick over and over and over again. It's fandom driving the plot, not storytelling.

[LaserX5]

I guess it's not for everyone. But we can all agree that it's much better than how she was previously depicted; with her curvy human-like body, large breasts, long hair and tiny hands. *shudder*

As long as she looks like a Sonic character, I'm perfectly fine with the new design.

Honestly, I didn't mind her having long hair and tiny hands. In fact, it made her look more like a woman. She's a Princess, so why not look the part? Large breasts on the other hand? Err, yea... I definitely did not like that at all. Unless they're going to properly covered up, why show something that provocative?

As for looking like a Sonic character, ok, she should, but Sally doesn't need a traced over Amy Rose design to see that happen. Other than the vest and gorilla hands, I thought Sally was fine the way she was.

I mean, she already in a sense looked like a Sonic character, but had her own unique identity.

Not so anymore.

I can't remember whether it was him or someone else at Archie.

Oh...

Well, if you can find some evidence of this, let me know. If Paul is indeed the main culprit for this story getting dragged on pointlessly, then he should held accountable for it.

It depends on the depiction. The reason why most people like the "Dark Sonic" form is because "Sonic X" is the most widely known show featuring Sonic. And since the dark-form only appeared once in the entire series for a few minutes, it left many viewers confused as to what it was.

However, the concept isn't new. Fleetway's "Sonic the Comic" already did something similar with their depiction of Super Sonic. Instead of the Super Saiyan-wannabe as seen in the games, they depicted the super-form as a psychotic demon taking possession of Sonic's body that's willing to kill everything it sees (both enemies and friends). Just look up "Fleetway" on Google search and you're bound to find several pictures of the character.

I'll agree there are some similarities, but I see Dark Sonic as more of an extreme rage form of Sonic's if he gets completely ticked off. The evil Sonic Sonic form of STC on the hand was more due to the Chaos Emeralds being a dangerous weapon.

It's almost in the sense like going mad with power.

It's a complete shattering of what the character is, and a betrayal of his core concepts while again, being incredibly stupid. Fleetway's Super Sonic was better and it wasn't deep AT ALL.

How is Sonic losing all self control and becoming this due to his rage against seeing his friends getting hurt shattering his character? If anything, it makes him more complex and noble in a sense as a hero.

Like I said, how Dark Sonic was played out was dumb. It wasn't very thought out and very confusing. That doesn't mean the concept was bad, but it was horribly executed.

I'm not going through the plotholes, or the multiple issue fight scene, the gigantic deus ex machina that Super Sonic is used as, or the fact that several characters just get dumped out entirely (bye Amy,) but the fact that the major theme is "nothing can happen to the status quo or characters unless it's reversed before there's any time to react" shows off just how much the writer doesn't really want to see good stories, just their beloved characters doing the same old shtick over and over and over again. It's fandom driving the plot, not storytelling.

Well, if you can't give your reasons why you don't like it, then why criticize it? You don't like it, fine, but he has the right to his ideas and opinions.

And when did he ever imply he wants the same old stuff over and over? That's not the reason why Ian's story is awful to him, or me for that matter, but the fact it is so shallow and biased.

Unless the SegaSonic cast is fair game to this "status quo change", what's the point of blasting all the beloved comic cast heroes with trauma just so they can shine in their place? That's not storytelling. That's utter laziness. We all know Sega's cast is never going to get hurt thanks to those asinine mandates, so that completely removes any sense of unpredictability this kind of story could have led to.

[LogiTeeka]

Honestly, I didn't mind her having long hair and tiny hands. In fact, it made her look more like a woman. She's a Princess, so why not look the part? Large breasts on the other hand? Err, yea... I definitely did not like that at all. Unless they're going to properly covered up, why show something that provocative?

As for looking like a Sonic character, ok, she should, but Sally doesn't need a traced over Amy Rose design to see that happen. Other than the vest and gorilla hands, I thought Sally was fine the way she was.

I mean, she already in a sense looked like a Sonic character, but had her own unique identity.

Not so anymore.

I guess it's just me, but it really bugs me when there are cartoon characters with completely different, clashing designs. I mean, the SegaSonic style takes influence from classic cartoon characters like Mickey Mouse and Popeye. They have large heads, hands, and feet; noodle-like limbs, and a small body. Amy Rose is female, but she still has comically large hands (though not as big as Sonic's).

Sally's original design, however, had a more realistic depiction. When you partner a realistic-looking character with a cartoonier character, they don't mesh well. It's best to try and find a common ground to base everything around and make the characters blend in better.