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@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 11:25 AM)

Also I still have to figure out how to set up our e-mail accounts on the new host.

@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 08:19 AM)

As soon as I figure out how to restore it. Sorry, I know I said it'd be done by now, but I didn't expect to have to put up with this DNS crap and other issues that popped up.

@  Uncle Ben : (24 July 2015 - 07:56 AM)

So when's the black theme coming back??

@  Uncle Ben : (24 July 2015 - 07:56 AM)

"Should"

@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 07:27 AM)

That DNS took longer to propagate properly than I thought it would. *Now* we should be back for good, though.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 08:48 PM)

Or it might be because Bluehost *finally* got around to that server wipe (one week after we'd asked for it) and that wiped out our DNS settings. I'm not sure which and I don't really care. In any case, we've severed our last ties with Bluehost, so this will not happen again.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 08:08 PM)

Looks like Bluehost yanked our DNS since our hosting account expired. That's why the site went down a while ago. But as you can see, it's fixed now.

@  Misk : (23 July 2015 - 04:55 PM)

No, they do not.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 04:27 AM)

The goggles do nothing?

@  Misk : (22 July 2015 - 05:50 PM)

My eyes.

@  furrykef : (22 July 2015 - 12:24 PM)

Looks like forum uploads might have been broken since last night. That should be fixed now too.

@  furrykef : (22 July 2015 - 01:33 AM)

Heh, whoops! Server went down for a few mins when I borked the config. Looks like it's back up now.

@  Uncle Ben : (21 July 2015 - 09:09 PM)

It looked like a napkin

@  ILOVEVHS : (21 July 2015 - 09:04 PM)

Fan-fuckin-tastic.

@  furrykef : (21 July 2015 - 08:25 PM)

As for the beaver picture while the forum was down, I think Tim drew it. On a napkin.

@  furrykef : (21 July 2015 - 08:24 PM)

No kiddin' about that "Finally!", Shadow. I am *so mad* at Bluehost for never responding to our support ticket. I submitted it early Friday morning and they *still* haven't answered it!

@  Uncle Ben : (21 July 2015 - 06:37 PM)

Maybe he did that himself

@  Shadow : (21 July 2015 - 05:25 PM)

Say, who made the cute picture of Beaver Chief?

@  Shadow : (21 July 2015 - 05:24 PM)

Finally!

@  RedMenace : (21 July 2015 - 05:02 PM)

Woooo! The site's back up! Three cheers for Kef!


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An Interesting Fan's Take On Sonic's Heroship

Sonic Fiona Scourge

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#1 LaserX5

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:33 AM

Personal note: I didn't write this, but because I have alot of respect for a Sonic fan(who will remain anonymous) who did, I decided to post this after see how golden of an article it really is, at least to me.

Feel free to share your thoughts about it after reading.


Anyhow, this fan article is called, "What the Hell, Hero?" (his words in bold, not mine)


Now, you might be wondering why I'm making a post out of a TV Trope, but trust me, it's relevant. A 'What the Hell, Hero', is when someone calls out the good guy for being an asshole. In my opinion, something that Archie's Sonic needs. Badly.

And, since this is me, it involves Fiona. Hey, if we can all be broken records about Mecha Sally, I can keep raging about Fiona's mutilation until it gets fixed. Not retconned. Fixed.

See, this is something that's part of Fiona's backstory, and the ultimate origin of her lack of trust for anyone. When Fiona was very young, about eight or nine, I'd guess, her village was bulldozed, and her parents killed (According to one version of her backstory) by Robotnik Prime's forces. Fiona was captured and taken to a prison camp. There, she was used as slave labor and for scientific experimentation, to the point that Robotnik was able to build a perfect replica of her. Which is kind of creepy. In fact, it makes my skin crawl. I think Sally might have a contender for "Worst treatment of a teen Mobian by fat old human".

In any case, at some point in this, Fiona met Sonic, NotSonicMighty, and NotTailsRay. They all got caught; but naturally, the four of them staged a breakout. Ray got stuck to a magic rock that stopped him from aging, Fiona got recaptured, but Sonic and Mighty got away. Sonic promised he would return for Fiona...

And promptly proceeded to never return ever. Mighty eventually went back... for Ray. After Fiona had already broken out. And the camp was abandoned. And Robotnik died. But did Sonic?

Nope. He actually betrayed the trust of a girl whom he is two or three years older than, and had been stuck in there and tortured, after her home was torched and her family killed (Probably). Our hero, ladies and gentlemen!

And not only did this happen, but it has never been explained. Not even by Ian "Tie-up-every-loose-thread-even-if-it-makes-no-sense" Flynn. Fiona called Sonic out on his behavior once. No apology, no explanation. No-one else ever addresses it. Not even Tails, who was preportedly so in love with Fiona that he ended up fighting Sonic over her, and knew about this, because he was there when she explained her backstory!

And wait people, it gets better!

Through some miracle, Fiona turned out to be a good person anyway. Or maybe I should say thankfully, or Sonic would end up with a one-vixen hit squad after him. Not that she wouldn't be kind of cool like that, but still. This is actually a refreshing change from the usual, and it makes Fiona a rather original, interesting character. It's nice to see someone in this comic and comics in general who is mature enough to rise above their personal grudges. In this sense, Fiona is a unique and interesting character.

She joined the Freedom Fighters, and after Sonic arrived back on Mobius, and first Comic That Must Not Be Numbered was unleashed on the unsuspecting masses, Fiona started to fall for Sonic. Their relationship lasted for almost twenty issues, which is surprisingly long for something that isn't Sonic/Sally.

Enter Flynn, who decided that turning Evil Sonic green, overpowering him, and so on wasn't enough like a bad fanfiction, and he needed a girlfriend. But not just any girl, no, the one that two of the heroes both want. So Fiona gets derailed into cheating on Sonic with Scourge, which is OOC even for Scourge, because he's a possessive little psychopath who would not want Sonic being anywhere near 'his girl' (I think I just threw up in my mouth a little).

So Fiona is now evil and boring. Everything that made her unique and interesting? Gone. What have we got instead? A childish hypocrite with a 'feels good to be bad' mentality. Are we sure that this isn't Anti-Fiona? Either way, Flynn's not finished with the derailment.

Enter 179, which, if you must know, is number two on my "Worst crap Flynn has ever pulled" list (Mecha Sally and 172 are joint first). In this issue, we find out that Sonic was never interested in Fiona; he was just doing it because he thought it would make Tails move on. Because, you know, the best thing to do when your best friend is nuts about a girl is try and nail her yourself, right? RIGHT?

Anyway, it's time to bring in the fridge logic. Sonic doesn't tell Tails this until seven issues have past. It's heavily implied, from Fiona and Scourge's dialogue, that everyone, Fiona included, believed Sonic's feelings for Fiona to be genuine.

Let me just repeat that. For eighteen months of the comic's run, Fiona was in a relationship that was a complete and utter sham, and she never knew about it. Sonic never told her. In other words, in order to protect his friend, he seduced, manipulated, and used an innocent (At the time) young girl, whose trust in him was already shaky at best. Again, our hero, ladies and gentlemen!

But wait, there's more! This plan pretty much backfires from step one. All it does is drive a rift between Sonic and Tails. So of course, Sonic is going to give up on the plan, patch things up with Tails, and avoid hurting Fiona any more than he already had, right? Wrong. He keeps going. He keeps lying to her and using her, even when it's having the opposite of the desired effect.

Time for two separate fridge logic theories.

1) Fiona complained that Sonic was boring, a far cry in contrast to how Sally, Amy, and Mina saw him. And that's because he wasn't interested in the relationship. Sonic managed to bore Fiona into cheating on him.

2) Fiona found out that Sonic was using her, and flips. Her image of him was once again shattered, and she once again found herself broken and betrayed by him. She was now certain that she couldn't trust anyone, because every time she did, she got hurt. She ended up seeking comfort from another man, who pretended to care about her, until she snapped and left Sonic altogether.

Of course, Sonic explains that he never loved Fiona to Tails... and Tails immediately forgives him. No comment about using Fiona. No comment about continuing the sham after it had failed. No question as to whether Fiona herself was in on it. No complaints about Sonic taking away Tails' chance to win Fiona over. Come on, Tails, you loved this girl enough to punch Sonic in the face over her. How about being in-character when Sonic says he used her without an iota of remorse for her feelings on the matter? Seriously, that panel of Tails punching Sonic in the face from 178 should probably be repeated about six times after that scene.

Sure, you can say that Fiona deserves no remorse after 172, but really? She was lied to and betrayed by Sonic twice. Both times are directly linked to her fall to evil, moreso than any other events in her life. In a way, you could almost say that Sonic himself is directly responsible for Fiona's fall to evil. You know what kind of character does this? A villain!

Say what you will about STC Sonic, but as a reader and fan of STC, I can assure you that he would never stoop so low as to do either of these things to someone, let alone both of them to the same girl. So there, you have it, more reasons why I think Archie's Sonic is a despicable, intolerable asshole. And, no, Flynn has never addressed this. He's always keen to gloss over it in flashbacks.

Believe it or not, I can’t actually find a way around this one myself. I've done the rant, drawn comparison to something better, so this is the part where I come up with a solution that would fix everything, right? Right? Wrong. There is no solution. What Flynn (And Penders) had Sonic do to Fiona was utterly irredeemable. The only excuse I can come up with is 'Mephiles made him do it'. And when your only excuse is "Blame Satan!", then we have a problem.

And Flynn expects us to see this guy as the hero of the comic... Yeah, not happening.


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#2 blue

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:22 AM

Wow that's interesting, but there are some parts that I disagreed. Like where Sonic didn't save Fiona because she was transferred during the scuffle in the prison riot. Also, in issue 179, it was implied that Sonic admit that he used Fiona because he couldn't moved on since "The Slap in #134." I have to admit, Ian writing flaws started to become more noticible to me since Sonic Universe 40 and StH 244.

Stop at 10:43 and you can see the dialoge balloon that backs up my point, if you can.

Edited by blue, 08 January 2013 - 07:51 AM.


#3 Uncle Ben

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:39 AM

This dude (or dudette) does make some valid points
Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced Her Majesty The Queen to a Greek racialist. All we know is, I'm going to the tower now to have my head cut off, and he is called The Stig.

#4 LaserX5

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:30 PM

Wow that's interesting, but there are some parts that I disagreed. Like where Sonic didn't save Fiona because she was transferred during the scuffle in the prison riot. Also, in issue 179, it was implied that Sonic admit that he used Fiona because he couldn't moved on since "The Slap in #134." I have to admit, Ian writing flaws started to become more noticeable to me since Sonic Universe 40 and StH 244.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUy9h9HAMfQ
Stop at 10:43 and you can see the dialoge balloon that backs up my point, if you can.


Really?

I'll let him know what you said and see what his answer is about it.

This dude (or dudette) does make some valid points


It's a dude.

And yes, does he indeed. Reading this makes me hate Sonic as a hero all the more because what he did here was inexcusable.

Fiona may have done some shady things, but she didn't deserve this.
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#5 PuffinGrandeur

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

Fiona was the most boring person ever as a "good guy", the relationship made no sense at all before Fiona betrayed him, and just because Sonic had Tails in mind when he dated Fiona doesn't mean he didn't like her at all. It is amazing in this that Fiona betrays them, and Sonic is called the jerk for it. Instead of saying "nobody was perfect" it goes straight to "this is all Sonic's fault and he's a horrible monster."

#6 RedAuthar

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:46 PM

Hold on, back up.

1) Sonic started dating Fiona to prevent Tails from being hurt, but as that went on he developed feelings for her. If he hadn't had feelings for her why the heck would he care so much that she went to Scourge. Sonic didn't really have a rivalry with Scourge until the event either, thus he must have had feelings for Fiona.
2) Fiona didn't start dating Sonic until AFTER Scourge pretended to be Sonic. Sonic didn't actually use her at all. Before that event, Sonic usually ruined Tails trying to make a date.
3) Fiona and Sonic are the same age. Both are 16.
4)Sonic DID try to rescue Fiona, but Robotnik had transferred her to a new facility. How the heck was Sonic supposed to do anything? For all he knew she was Robotisized or dead. While he COULD have tried harder, being the same age as her (thus 8 at the time) there wasn't much he COULD have done.

#7 PuffinGrandeur

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:15 PM

Another note, Fiona didn't become a good person miraculously after her trauma. She was a total jerk when Nic and Mighty found her, and only "started to come around" randomly after Sonic died.

#8 Uncle Ben

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:21 PM

Sonic is still a good hero.


1) Sonic started dating Fiona to prevent Tails from being hurt, but as that went on he developed feelings for her. If he hadn't had feelings for her why the heck would he care so much that she went to Scourge. Sonic didn't really have a rivalry with Scourge until the event either, thus he must have had feelings for Fiona.
2) Fiona didn't start dating Sonic until AFTER Scourge pretended to be Sonic. Sonic didn't actually use her at all. Before that event, Sonic usually ruined Tails trying to make a date.
3) Fiona and Sonic are the same age. Both are 16.
4)Sonic DID try to rescue Fiona, but Robotnik had transferred her to a new facility. How the heck was Sonic supposed to do anything? For all he knew she was Robotisized or dead. While he COULD have tried harder, being the same age as her (thus 8 at the time) there wasn't much he COULD have done.


1) I dont blame Sonic for doing that. He was trying to protect someone who is practically his little Brother
2- 4) Agreed

Another thing, saying Sonic used her as a rebound from that event in 134 and was just using her is a load of bull. I remember Sonic admitted that he dated Fiona so Tails wouldnt be hurt. Sonic just didnt expect to have feelings for her
Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced Her Majesty The Queen to a Greek racialist. All we know is, I'm going to the tower now to have my head cut off, and he is called The Stig.

#9 FunnelVortex

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:53 PM

Man.

I hate how he mistreated Tails, joked about Mecha Sally, and laughed at Geffory.

It is all sick!

#10 blue

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:13 PM

Another note, Fiona didn't become a good person miraculously after her trauma. She was a total jerk when Nic and Mighty found her, and only "started to come around" randomly after Sonic died.

Actually, Fiona was kind of radical and bitter if someone betrays them before Ian's retcon. Examples in the story arc of the Good, the Bad, and the Unknown, Fiona was thinking of zapping things by using a big laser gun(Sorry, my memory is a bit sketchy) to make their mission quicker but Rotor didn't allow it.

#11 blue

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:36 PM

Another note, Fiona didn't become a good person miraculously after her trauma. She was a total jerk when Nic and Mighty found her, and only "started to come around" randomly after Sonic died.

That because Sonic saved the world and Scrouge made Fiona interested in Sonic? I know, those are shallow reasons, but they are reasons.

#12 LaserX5

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:03 PM

Another thing, saying Sonic used her as a rebound from that event in 134 and was just using her is a load of bull. I remember Sonic admitted that he dated Fiona so Tails wouldn't be hurt. Sonic just didn't expect to have feelings for her


That literally doesn't make any sense.

How would Sonic dating the girl Tails loved most keep him from getting hurt? I could see if you're saying he was worried Fiona might be worried about Fiona hurting him again, but him dating her would only add salt to his emotional wounds.

Think about it. If you had a big brother or best friend date a girl you were madly in love with, would you look it as an act of kindness?

I sure wouldn't.

Wow that's interesting, but there are some parts that I disagreed. Like where Sonic didn't save Fiona because she was transferred during the scuffle in the prison riot. Also, in issue 179, it was implied that Sonic admit that he used Fiona because he couldn't moved on since "The Slap in #134."


Here's his response to your post

Sonic did lose track of Fiona in the riot, but that wouldn't stop him checking for her, or going back with backup once he escaped. But he never did. It also doesn't matter why Sonic used Fiona, he still did, without her knowing, and he shows no remorse for that.


Hold on, back up.

1) Sonic started dating Fiona to prevent Tails from being hurt, but as that went on he developed feelings for her. If he hadn't had feelings for her why the heck would he care so much that she went to Scourge. Sonic didn't really have a rivalry with Scourge until the event either, thus he must have had feelings for Fiona.
2) Fiona didn't start dating Sonic until AFTER Scourge pretended to be Sonic. Sonic didn't actually use her at all. Before that event, Sonic usually ruined Tails trying to make a date.
3) Fiona and Sonic are the same age. Both are 16.
4)Sonic DID try to rescue Fiona, but Robotnik had transferred her to a new facility. How the heck was Sonic supposed to do anything? For all he knew she was Roboticized or dead. While he COULD have tried harder, being the same age as her (thus 8 at the time) there wasn't much he COULD have done.


Here's his response to your points.

1) It's never been stated that Sonic developed feelings for Fiona. Also, he hates Scourge because Scourge is him, but evil, and he hates evil and stuff. Hence why he's capable of hating Robotnik, Eggman, Naugus, Mogul, Regina, etc, or having a rivalry with Shadow or Knuckles, without them stealing his girlfriend. It's also worth noting that Scourge was pathetic before 161 overpowered him, so he likely didn't consider him a threat.

2) Well, he still did. He could have simply refused her advances, or nudged her in Tails' direction, but he went for the botched dating plan.

3) Sonic is 17-18 by now. Fiona is sixteen. She says 'closer' to her own age in 155, never that they're the same age.

4) Again, Sonic was older, and if Mighty knew where to go to find Ray, then it obviously wasn't that hard to find. He doesn't even make a token effort to find her after Robotnik's death.

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#13 Uncle Ben

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

Would you rather be the one to hurt your best friend or the girl he is head over heals with?? I'm glad i dont have to pick that... but i'm sticking with Sonic on this one cause his intent was to have Tails be hurt by him... not her
Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced Her Majesty The Queen to a Greek racialist. All we know is, I'm going to the tower now to have my head cut off, and he is called The Stig.

#14 FunnelVortex

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:24 PM

Would you rather be the one to hurt your best friend or the girl he is head over heals with?? I'm glad i dont have to pick that... but i'm sticking with Sonic on this one cause his intent was to have Tails be hurt by him... not her


Sonic was intending to hurt Tails' feelings?

That is just sick!

Sonic is closer to Tails than Fiona, now why would he drive a stake through their relationship instead of just having Tails let go on his own!

#15 Uncle Ben

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

He wasn't... sorry if i didnt make that clear. its really difficult how to explain it... they did a terrible job writing it
Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced Her Majesty The Queen to a Greek racialist. All we know is, I'm going to the tower now to have my head cut off, and he is called The Stig.

#16 LaserX5

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:30 PM

Would you rather be the one to hurt your best friend or the girl he is head over heals with?? I'm glad i don't have to pick that... but I'm sticking with Sonic on this one cause his intent was to have Tails be hurt by him... not her


Neither actually because it's like choosing between getting punched in the gut or having salt poured on a wound. Nobody wins

If I was Sonic, I would have if anything try to put a good word in for his little bro towards Fiona to maybe possibly give him a chance one day. Sure, it would be a huge long shot, but at least then Sonic would act like he cares about Tails' feelings.

Here, this decision was wrong on 2 accounts

1. He basically dated a girl that he obviously didn't love, because he wouldn't have said that to Tails he didn't if he did.

2. Tails saw it as Sonic trying to score with the girl he wanted, and it infuriated him. Not to mention Sonic's idea of this making Tails possibly forgetting about her if he was with her instead was downright ludicrous.

No one would see this as an act of kindness or protection. No one.

The only way I could possibly sympathize with Sonic on this is if he felt dating Fiona took some of the emotional pain away of Sally rejecting him, but that's not the impression Flynn gave me about Sonic's choice here at all after 179.

Quite the opposite actually.
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#17 Uncle Ben

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

Neither actually because it's like choosing between getting punched in the gut or having salt poured on a wound. Nobody wins

If I was Sonic, I would have if anything try to put a good word in for his little bro towards Fiona to maybe possibly give him a chance one day. Sure, it would be a huge long shot, but at least then Sonic would act like he cares about Tails' feelings.

Here, this decision was wrong on 2 accounts

1. He basically dated a girl that he didn't love, because he wouldn't said to Tails he didn't if he did.

2. Tails saw it as Sonic trying to score with the girl he wanted, and it infuriated him.

The only way I could sympathize with Sonic on this is if he felt dating Fiona took some of the pain of Sally rejecting him, but that's not the impression Flynn gave me at all after 179. Quite the opposite really.


Flynn did a terrible job with that one... the only thing that came out of that arc was the Concil... and that wasnt greatly received as i remember
Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced Her Majesty The Queen to a Greek racialist. All we know is, I'm going to the tower now to have my head cut off, and he is called The Stig.

#18 FunnelVortex

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:38 PM

Would you rather be the one to hurt your best friend or the girl he is head over heals with?? I'm glad i don't have to pick that... but I'm sticking with Sonic on this one cause his intent was to have Tails be hurt by him... not her


Neither actually because it's like choosing between getting punched in the gut or having salt poured on a wound. Nobody wins

If I was Sonic, I would have if anything try to put a good word in for his little bro towards Fiona to maybe possibly give him a chance one day. Sure, it would be a huge long shot, but at least then Sonic would act like he cares about Tails' feelings.

Here, this decision was wrong on 2 accounts

1. He basically dated a girl that he didn't love, because he wouldn't have said that to Tails he didn't if he did.

2. Tails saw it as Sonic trying to score with the girl he wanted, and it infuriated him.

The only way I could sympathize with Sonic on this is if he felt dating Fiona took some of the emotional pain away of Sally rejecting him, but that's not the impression Flynn gave me at all after 179. Quite the opposite actually.



That is worse.

You want your best friend to get over a woman, so you date her? WHAT KIND OF SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?!?!

Sonic was ASKING for Tails to hate him! And Sonic and Tails are like brothers, they would NEVER fight! But then again, Ian was like "hey, let's shake things up" so he does this stupid story and turns Sonic into a dick just for shockvalue.

WHAT THE **** FLYNN!?

#19 Uncle Ben

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

Sonic was trying to protect his "little Bro." HOW he did it wasnt the right way to do it though...
Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced Her Majesty The Queen to a Greek racialist. All we know is, I'm going to the tower now to have my head cut off, and he is called The Stig.

#20 blue

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

Would you rather be the one to hurt your best friend or the girl he is head over heals with?? I'm glad i don't have to pick that... but I'm sticking with Sonic on this one cause his intent was to have Tails be hurt by him... not her


Neither actually because it's like choosing between getting punched in the gut or having salt poured on a wound. Nobody wins

If I was Sonic, I would have if anything try to put a good word in for his little bro towards Fiona to maybe possibly give him a chance one day. Sure, it would be a huge long shot, but at least then Sonic would act like he cares about Tails' feelings.

Here, this decision was wrong on 2 accounts

1. He basically dated a girl that he didn't love, because he wouldn't have said that to Tails he didn't if he did.

2. Tails saw it as Sonic trying to score with the girl he wanted, and it infuriated him.

The only way I could sympathize with Sonic on this is if he felt dating Fiona took some of the emotional pain away of Sally rejecting him, but that's not the impression Flynn gave me at all after 179. Quite the opposite actually.



That is worse.

You want your best friend to get over a woman, so you date her? WHAT KIND OF SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?!?!

Sonic was ASKING for Tails to hate him! And Sonic and Tails are like brothers, they would NEVER fight! But then again, Ian was like "hey, let's shake things up" so he does this stupid story and turns Sonic into a dick just for shockvalue.

WHAT THE **** FLYNN!?

When I listened to other people's opinion about this, I started to realize how conveluted and nonsensical they can be. Just what Ken and Ian were thinking? More importantly, what are the editors were thinking when they approved this mess? I can't believe I let those slide when I first read them.




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