636 replies to this topic

[LaserX5]

but the 2nd season showed better continuity and plot line.

No argument there.

Although, I do think the 1st Season portrayed the Satam Freedom Fighters better than the 2nd.

I did, and it DOESN'T SAY THAT. It says that she rounded up the Robians (which means it WASN'T SOMETHING PLANET-WIDE or they wouldn't need to be gathered) and deroboticized them, as well as making them immune. The only evidence we have that it was planet-wide was adding "planet-wide" to a panel where Eggman doesn't actually say it. He just says he can't roboticize people after they were all deroboticized. Are we really gonna assume he tried every single Mobian on the planet and checked if they'd been deroboticized before? We never saw his tests. We never saw how the BEM did it. We never got any details, yet we're acting as if the details are wrong.

If what you say is true, then why was this Bem scientist on trial to begin with? They wanted her to roboticize THE ENTIRE PLANET. I remember that part vividly. And then she disobeyed orders. That tells me she did something drastic against her leaders' wishes for them to have her arrested.

Besides, why would she even need to bother rounding them up? If they had a beam to roboticize the entire planet of Mobius, why couldn't she do the same with an immunity one? That makes no sense.

And as 135 showed, he couldn't roboticize anyone anymore. Because if he could have, HE WOULD HAVE.

The only valid answer you could give is that the current writers didn't want to deal with roboticization as a plot point anymore. And if that is indeed the case, then shame on them, because it's one of the better things about the series.

Well, when it isn't so blatantly contrived of course for more pointless shockvalue.

Because then the entire world would be roboticized. Genesis was supposed to get rid of the BEM Immunity that affected most of the planet's Mobians. It failed ENTIRELY, but Sally's roboticization did prove that it was still viable for part of the population even without the reset. Thus, now he tries to roboticize anybody he can and then legionizes them if it doesn't work.

That explanation though has some serious flaws.

First of all, the main reason Sonic and Eggman didn't get roboticized is because of the Sega would never allow it. The BEM immunity excuse was just Ian covering up his tracks for the fact he seriously screwed up with this plot point. Even the wiki on Archie Sonic says Eggman's Genesis machine removed all the BEM Immunity.

Secondly, when asked about just who was immune and who wasn't, Ian gave a very vague answer, saying something along the lines, "I'm not really sure. It could be 50% or something like that."

Does he really think we're that gullible? You mean to tell me the head writer who definitely has all of the continuity plot points of the series at his disposal to work with, and he's going to explain this controversial issue with a, "I'm not really sure." answer?

Face it. Ian didn't do his homework here when he thought this story up. He just wanted to roboticize Sally by any means necessary to shock his readers. Is it any wonder now people have been calling him out on that?

If anything, we can blame the writers for not making it more clear as to who was and who wasn't immune because when I read that statement by Eggman, I'm seeing it as those who were roboticized and changed back by the BEM are immune.

Well said. The writers did not make it clear and for a plot point this crucial to the current story, it's a shame on all of them. Ian seriously should have done his research here before writing a story with this drastic of a plot point.

[Uncle Ben]

i agree.

[PuffinGrandeur]

I did, and it DOESN'T SAY THAT. It says that she rounded up the Robians (which means it WASN'T SOMETHING PLANET-WIDE or they wouldn't need to be gathered) and deroboticized them, as well as making them immune. The only evidence we have that it was planet-wide was adding "planet-wide" to a panel where Eggman doesn't actually say it. He just says he can't roboticize people after they were all deroboticized. Are we really gonna assume he tried every single Mobian on the planet and checked if they'd been deroboticized before? We never saw his tests. We never saw how the BEM did it. We never got any details, yet we're acting as if the details are wrong.

If what you say is true, then why was this Bem scientist on trial to begin with? They wanted her to roboticize THE ENTIRE PLANET. I remember that part vividly. And then she disobeyed orders. That tells me she did something drastic against her leaders' wishes for them to have her arrested.

Besides, why would she even need to bother rounding them up? If they had a beam to roboticize the entire planet of Mobius, why couldn't she do the same with an immunity one? That makes no sense.

She was on trial because she was supposed to roboticize everybody and instead deroboticized everybody. That's directly going against orders on a planet-wide scale. But there was never a beam mentioned, no method at all. What was mentioned was that she rounded them all up (remember they had a big deal of everybody disappearing) deroboticized them, and made it immune. Because it was never THAT clear what happened, people assumed the whole planet was made immune. But that's just it: assumptions are not the same as facts. There was no planet-wide roboticizer beam or immunity beam or anything: you're literally making them up right now for Ian to go against them.

That explanation though has some serious flaws.

First of all, the main reason Sonic and Eggman didn't get roboticized is because of the Sega would never allow it. The BEM immunity excuse was just Ian covering up his tracks for the fact he seriously screwed up with this plot point. Even the wiki on Archie Sonic says Eggman's Genesis machine removed all the BEM Immunity.

The Wiki is wrong. Eggman even says in the issue that the immunity is not gone, evidenced by them not changing. STOP IGNORING CANON WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT. THAT'S HOW HE KNOWS THE NEW RULES.

Secondly, when asked about just who was immune and who wasn't, Ian gave a very vague answer, saying something along the lines, "I'm not really sure. It could be 50% or something like that."

Anybody who was deroboticized by the BEM is immune. Anybody else isn't. The book never gave actual percentages on that, so yeah it's always been unclear. Did they give the exact percentages in SataM, or is that also awful?

You're not agreeing with me if you think the problem is "Ian not doing his research." If he "hadn't done his research" that means it was very clear what happened and what the rules were, and he went against them. The "problem" is that they WEREN'T clear and the rules WEREN'T what was assumed. AS-SUM-ED.

[LogiTeeka]

Because then the entire world would be roboticized. Genesis was supposed to get rid of the BEM Immunity that affected most of the planet's Mobians. It failed ENTIRELY, but Sally's roboticization did prove that it was still viable for part of the population even without the reset. Thus, now he tries to roboticize anybody he can and then legionizes them if it doesn't work.

That explanation though has some serious flaws.

First of all, the main reason Sonic and Eggman didn't get roboticized is because of the Sega would never allow it. The BEM immunity excuse was just Ian covering up his tracks for the fact he seriously screwed up with this plot point. Even the wiki on Archie Sonic says Eggman's Genesis machine removed all the BEM Immunity.

Secondly, when asked about just who was immune and who wasn't, Ian gave a very vague answer, saying something along the lines, "I'm not really sure. It could be 50% or something like that."

Does he really think we're that gullible? You mean to tell me the head writer who definitely has all of the continuity plot points of the series at his disposal to work with, and he's going to explain this controversial issue with a, "I'm not really sure." answer?

Face it. Ian didn't do his homework here when he thought this story up. He just wanted to roboticize Sally by any means necessary to shock his readers. Is it any wonder now people have been calling him out on that?

What, you expect him to count every single inhabitant of Mobius (including Overlander, Chao, Nerb, ect.), then average what percent of the population are immune or not? Estimating stuff like that is for people with may too much time on their hands.

Bollers had some cool ideas (much better than Penders'), but some of them were way too contrived. The whole Bem thing was nothing more than a "Deus Ex Machina" excuse to have all the Robians restored by the time Sonic returned home from space. It comes completely out of nowhere and contributed nothing short of a slight reboot.

[blue]

Because then the entire world would be roboticized. Genesis was supposed to get rid of the BEM Immunity that affected most of the planet's Mobians. It failed ENTIRELY, but Sally's roboticization did prove that it was still viable for part of the population even without the reset. Thus, now he tries to roboticize anybody he can and then legionizes them if it doesn't work.

That explanation though has some serious flaws.

First of all, the main reason Sonic and Eggman didn't get roboticized is because of the Sega would never allow it. The BEM immunity excuse was just Ian covering up his tracks for the fact he seriously screwed up with this plot point. Even the wiki on Archie Sonic says Eggman's Genesis machine removed all the BEM Immunity.

Secondly, when asked about just who was immune and who wasn't, Ian gave a very vague answer, saying something along the lines, "I'm not really sure. It could be 50% or something like that."

Does he really think we're that gullible? You mean to tell me the head writer who definitely has all of the continuity plot points of the series at his disposal to work with, and he's going to explain this controversial issue with a, "I'm not really sure." answer?

Face it. Ian didn't do his homework here when he thought this story up. He just wanted to roboticize Sally by any means necessary to shock his readers. Is it any wonder now people have been calling him out on that?

What, you expect him to count every single inhabitant of Mobius (including Overlander, Chao, Nerb, ect.), then average what percent of the population are immune or not? Estimating stuff like that is for people with may too much time on their hands.

Bollers had some cool ideas (much better than Penders'), but some of them were way too contrived. The whole Bem thing was nothing more than a "Deus Ex Machina" excuse to have all the Robians restored by the time Sonic returned home from space. It comes completely out of nowhere and contributed nothing short of a slight reboot.

Haven't all the robians(except Julian) been deroboticize before Sonic was blast offed into space.

[LaserX5]

She was on trial because she was supposed to roboticize everybody and instead deroboticized everybody. That's directly going against orders on a planet-wide scale. But there was never a beam mentioned, no method at all. What was mentioned was that she rounded them all up (remember they had a big deal of everybody disappearing) deroboticized them, and made it immune. Because it was never THAT clear what happened, people assumed the whole planet was made immune. But that's just it: assumptions are not the same as facts. There was no planet-wide roboticizer beam or immunity beam or anything: you're literally making them up right now for Ian to go against them.

So you're saying this BEM scientist literally took them to the same planet as hers or some other planet to do this?

If that's the case, what was the point in showing Eggman make a machine to reset the planet to remove the BEM Immunity if this stuff never hit the planet to begin with just so he could start roboticizing Mobians again?

You don't see a serious contradiction here? Eggman could have easily just roboticized those not affected by the immunity and then legionized the rest. Instead, Ian built up this big Genesis thing as something that was going to bring back roboticization as if it was no longer possible.

The Wiki is wrong. Eggman even says in the issue that the immunity is not gone, evidenced by them not changing. STOP IGNORING CANON WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT. THAT'S HOW HE KNOWS THE NEW RULES.

Are you actually insinuating Eggman was going to send that beam onto the planet, while yet knowing most of the Mobians would not be affected by it since they still had their immunity?

You know what? If that's what you're implying, then you're making Ian's story sound stupider than I originally thought before. No way would Eggman would send a beam if more than half would be unaffected by it. He's not that big of an idiot.

Also, Eggman said in Issue 230, he would have millions of new robotic slaves from this world roboticizer. Now why would he say that if he thought only half wouldn't be affected?

You're not agreeing with me if you think the problem is "Ian not doing his research." If he "hadn't done his research" that means it was very clear what happened and what the rules were, and he went against them. The "problem" is that they WEREN'T clear and the rules WEREN'T what was assumed. AS-SUM-ED.

That still doesn't excuse the fact Ian took ALOT of creative liberties here when making this Sally gets roboticized story.

And don't kid yourself. Even if Ian didn't have that lame, "They have the BEM Immunity." excuse, he still couldn't roboticize Sonic and Eggman because Sega would be up in arms about it if he did.

What, you expect him to count every single inhabitant of Mobius (including Overlander, Chao, Nerb, ect.), then average what percent of the population are immune or not? Estimating stuff like that is for people with may too much time on their hands.

Bollers had some cool ideas (much better than Penders'), but some of them were way too contrived. The whole Bem thing was nothing more than a "Deus Ex Machina" excuse to have all the Robians restored by the time Sonic returned home from space. It comes completely out of nowhere and contributed nothing short of a slight reboot.

I'm just saying, Ian should've had a list of who was and wasn't affected. I mean, it's not like there are thousands of characters, just about 4-7 dozen. He's the head writer. It's his job to do his homework about this kind of stuff.

And yes, I'll agree with you Bollers' deroboticization was very lazy writing. I didn't like it one iota.

Still, that doesn't mean Ian can just ignore it and change the rules to fit his story. Plus, if he really was trying to close any loopholes about this controversial plot point, he should have done it BEFORE this story, not after.

[RedAuthar]

Yup.

[PuffinGrandeur]

You know what, go read the issues again. You clearly have no idea what happened in them.
The BEM had to round up all the Robians, not just shoot a beam at the planet. That was covered in a backup story where every Robian suddenly DISAPPEARED, then some time later suddenly were found in a field deroboticized. This happened, and Eggman wanted to get rid of the immunity the then-Robians all had because of it.
Eggman thought that Genesis could reboot the BEM immunity away, but he failed. He fired the world roboticizer thinking it would work (although we knew it didn't because he failed at the end of Genesis) and he realized his mistake when he and Sonic were still unchanged. (Also half the world's population would STILL BE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS, but that is irrelevant because he thought the immunity was gone.)
If you just go through the characters, you can say "were they deroboticized by the BEM?" If so, they're immune. If not, they're not. BEM deroboticization only happened twice, so it's not hard for people to do that on their own without Ian having to list every single character in the series.

Nothing was changed. You keep saying the problem is he took creative liberties, but the only real problem is you can't even remember the issues you're trying to reference. You don't know what happened, or what the rules are, but you're still trying to say he broke them.

[RedAuthar]

Again it was Robotnik who said he couldn't robotize anyone. Period. Dot. He specifically states anyone. Everyone was Immune at one point.

[LaserX5]

You know what, go read the issues again. You clearly have no idea what happened in them.

I read the issues, ok? You want to prove me wrong? Show images of those issues to prove your point.

Eggman thought that Genesis could reboot the BEM immunity away, but he failed. He fired the world roboticizer thinking it would work (although we knew it didn't because he failed at the end of Genesis) and he realized his mistake when he and Sonic were still unchanged.

They were still unchanged basically because Sega WOULD NOT LET IAN ROBOTICIZE THEM. Do I have to bring up their asinine mandates? You do realize Ian could've easily said it did work instead, don't you? I doubt anyone would have cared. But then Ian would have alot of explaining to do why Sally was roboticized and they weren't.

So, my guess is, Ian was forced to backtrack and say Eggman failed and the BEM Immunity was still there to protect himself from looking like he went out of his way to roboticize Sally.

Nothing was changed. You keep saying the problem is he took creative liberties, but the only real problem is you can't even remember the issues you're trying to reference. You don't know what happened, or what the rules are, but you're still trying to say he broke them.

If Ian didn't take any creative liberties, explain to me then why he didn't even bother to have Eggman roboticize anyone before doing this. And don't say because of the BEM Immunity. Tell me honestly if roboticizating Mobians was technically possible, why didn't Ian have Eggman attempt it until after the Genesis thing?

According to you, only those whom the BEM caused to disappear and then turn to normal were the only ones immune. That means there were plenty of others that weren't immune if what you say is true. So again, explain to me why Ian didn't have Eggman use this technology again if it was technically possible. I don't see why Eggman would scrap roboticization as a slave device if it was still usable.

You know what it really looks like? It looks like Ian only brought it back just to roboticize Sally for his big bombshell story.

Again it was Robotnik who said he couldn't robotize anyone. Period. Dot. He specifically states anyone. Everyone was Immune at one point.

Agreed.

Why else was it that not even Ken Penders bothered with this technology if it technically was still around?

[Uncle Ben]

Children settle down. Seeing this made me realize this: The writers have basically thrown the continuity out the window just to give shock value to the story. I dont think they care about if we remember what happened in issue whatever or not. They are trying to give us a story and we know they are mucking it up just for Shock Value

[LaserX5]

Children settle down. Seeing this made me realize this: The writers have basically thrown the continuity out the window just to give shock value to the story. I dont think they care about if we remember what happened in issue whatever or not. They are trying to give us a story and we know they are mucking it up just for Shock Value

Took the words right out of my mouth here.

[PuffinGrandeur]

They were still unchanged basically because Sega WOULD NOT LET IAN ROBOTICIZE THEM. Do I have to bring up their asinine mandates? You do realize Ian could've easily said it did work instead, don't you? I doubt anyone would have cared. But then Ian would have alot of explaining to do why Sally was roboticized and they weren't.

The immunity reset was introduced in the same issue it was shown to not work. There's no room to retract, you're not even making sense. He could easily have not written it in at all if he had to SUDDENLY have Eggman and Sonic not be changed (like anybody didn't know that wouldn't happen.) He was only able to even have Sonic and Eggman in the predicament because the rules as they actually worked allowed them to. In other words: the mandate was irrelevant.

If Ian didn't take any creative liberties, explain to me then why he didn't even bother to have Eggman roboticize anyone before doing this. And don't say because of the BEM Immunity. Tell me honestly if roboticizating Mobians was technically possible, why didn't Ian have Eggman attempt it until after the Genesis thing?

He did, it didn't work because of the immunity. There was a whole big plot about this with Anonymous and the fake Destructix. Eggman didn't know whether every single Mobian in the world was immune or not, he didn't even know why it wasn't working. Until he figured out what the BEM did, he had no way of knowing why or how to get around it, so it wasn't feasible.

Ken Penders didn't bother with roboticization much because he hated Robotnik and did as much as possible to ignore the character and his methods. He tried whenever he could to distance his work from everybody else.

Robians get rounded up.
BEM says that they were deroboticized, doesn't mention a beam or even the immunity at all really.
Eggman admitting the rules didn't actually change
Mobians are able to be roboticized after but the immunity is also still in effect.
Bonus: The only bit we ever see of the BEM deoroboticizing someone. It's done with a gas.

What you should take away from this isn't that writers throw away continuity. It's that readers don't pay attention, when they actually read it at all.

[Nique]

Sally was roboticized?... oh those silly things I miss when I don't visit the forums for ages.

[LaserX5]

He did, it didn't work because of the immunity. There was a whole big plot about this with Anonymous and the fake Destructix. Eggman didn't know whether every single Mobian in the world was immune or not, he didn't even know why it wasn't working. Until he figured out what the BEM did, he had no way of knowing why or how to get around it, so it wasn't feasible.

Ken Penders didn't bother with roboticization much because he hated Robotnik and did as much as possible to ignore the character and his methods. He tried whenever he could to distance his work from everybody else.

Robians get rounded up.
BEM says that they were deroboticized, doesn't mention a beam or even the immunity at all really.
Eggman admitting the rules didn't actually change
Mobians are able to be roboticized after but the immunity is also still in effect.
Bonus: The only bit we ever see of the BEM deoroboticizing someone. It's done with a gas.

What you should take away from this isn't that writers throw away continuity. It's that readers don't pay attention, when they actually read it at all.

There's still a couple of flaws to your argument.

1. In the issue where Sonic is on another planet, I can clearly see the BEM aliens say, she was directed to roboticize all Mobians, but then did the exact opposite. Well, what do you think the exact opposite of roboticize all Mobians is?

I don't see how you can keep saying we're misinterpreting this. It seems pretty black and white to me.

2. Ian didn't have Eggman say that the Genesis machine failed until after Issue 230, the very same issue where they somehow came out of the beam unharmed. Now either Ian wrote himself into a corner and had to cover his hide since Sega's mandates had put him in a bind about Sonic and Eggman not allowed to be roboticized, or he actually planned Eggman to fail removing the BEM Immunity from the start.

If it's the former, then Ian had no choice but to explain it that way. If it's the latter, then that means Ian set out to roboticize Sally by any means necessary.

[bwrosas]

http://www.youtube.c...QfoC22wD3rypali

my take on what being discussed here

[PuffinGrandeur]

1. In the issue where Sonic is on another planet, I can clearly see the BEM aliens say, she was directed to roboticize ALL MOBIANS, but then did THE EXACT OPPOSITE. Well, what do you think the exact opposite of roboticize all Mobians is?

Deroboticizing all the Robians. Which they did. Your math is awful.

2. Ian didn't have Eggman say that the Genesis until after Issue 230, the very same issue where they somehow came out of the beam unharmed. Now either Ian wrote himself into a corner and had to cover his hide since Sega's mandates had put him in a bind about removing all of the BEM Immunity, or he actually planned Eggman to fail removing the BEM Immunity from the start.

He didn't what? The BEM Immunity wasn't mentioned as a part of Genesis until 230, where Eggman said he reverted it. Then at the end of the issue when Sonic and Eggman don't change, it teaches him that nothing was actually reverted (thus, Genesis was a failure.) Because of that, when he invades other people he roboticizes some (those who turned out to not be immune) and legionizes others (those who still are immune because nothing changed.) This is not a hard thing to understand, yet you are taking insane loops to misinterpret it. I just showed off every single example showing how this works, and you still have the ability to not tell what's going on.

[LaserX5]

Your math is awful.

What does math even have to do with this discussion?

Can you ever have a debate with me without resorting to personal attacks?

He didn't what? The BEM Immunity wasn't mentioned as a part of Genesis until 230, where Eggman said he reverted it. Then at the end of the issue when Sonic and Eggman don't change, it teaches him that nothing was actually reverted (thus, Genesis was a failure.) Because of that, when he invades other people he roboticizes some (those who turned out to not be immune) and legionizes others (those who still are immune because nothing changed.) This is not a hard thing to understand, yet you are taking insane loops to misinterpret it. I just showed off every single example showing how this works, and you still have the ability to not tell what's going on.

Those images still don't explain 2 very important plot points.

#1: Why did Eggman say he couldn't roboticize a single behing in 135 if only the only ones immune were those that got the BEM deroboticization?

You can say all you want he was referring to those that got the immunity, but he didn't mention them specifically. He said, "a single being" There is no gray area here when you use that word as far as I'm concerned.

#2: Why didn't Ian attempt to bring back roboticization way earlier in his run if there were those who still couldn't turned into robotic slaves?

Like I said, if this technology was still usable, then why not use it? The rest can just be legionized. The fact Ian took so long to get around to it makes me believe the continuity plot point of roboticization being obsolete was indeed true.

[Prime]

Man if this was any more exciting, I'd totally be jacking it.

I read the issues, ok? You want to prove me wrong? Show images of those issues to prove your point.

Asking for evidence or won't believe it... Hmmm, seems legit.

They were still unchanged basically because Sega WOULD NOT LET IAN ROBOTICIZE THEM. Do I have to bring up their asinine mandates?

Pretty much saying he is right without evidence to back up claim. So hows about you show us this list of madates you often drone on about?

Just seems like you're hell bent on just blaming it on all on Ian. Be it his fault or not.


Is it Ian's fault if the previous writers weren't clear with the immune bullshit? No, it ani't his fault. If they flat out stated that every single person on the entire planet was immune then Ian would be at fault, but they didn't. It'd be more logical for the BEM to immune the ones they deroboticized and be done with it. Did we see them immune the entire planet? All we know was the robians dissapeared and were later returned back to normal. So by doing that, how would that make the entire planet immune? For the immunity to work, wouldn't the BEM need to roboticize every single being on the planet and then deroboticize them? That'd be a hell of a task and there was never anything said about them doing something like that.

As for Robotnik, again, previous writers weren't clear. He tries to roboticize mobians it doesn't work. Do we know how many mobians he tried it on, or which ones he tried it on? No we don't. All we know is according to him that it doesn't work anymore, That means that either the entire planet is immune or he has only captured mobians who were previously robians and can no longer do it. He don't know how it's possible, so why keep roboticization? The previous writers more the likely wanted it out of the way, gave a quick half baked excuse and threw it in there. They might have meant the entire planet was immune but they didn't bother to make that clear.

And before anyone says "Well why didn't he go back to the previous writers and ask them?!" Might be in his contract to not have any contact with previous writers. Plus with how batshit insane Ken Penders has been acting towards Archie, you really think he'd risk that?

Oh, and just for the record, I looked up both the BEM and roboticization in the Sonic Comic Encyclopedia. And that book clearly states that the previous robians were the ones immune to further roboticization attempts. Doesn't say shit all about everyone being immune. It states that the BEM used a more advanced version of the roboticizer to deroboticize the robians, thus Robotnik's less then advanced model roboticizer would no longer work on them.

So how is that Ian's fault if the previous writers weren't clear? And before you say something like "Well why did it take Ian so long to bring it back?" I dunno, I'm not Ian. He may be a fan of the series and no doubt has read every single issue before being hired, but that don't mean he is gonna remember every single detail. Being the head writer, he will need to go and look back at all the previous material to do research, I mean hell, he must of done to have done the Encyclopedia. When he thought of possibly bringing roboticization back, he went and read the craptacular BEM stuff, saw the previous writers half assed it and found out it he could bring it back. Thus we can't really have a go at Ian for bringing it back if the previous writers didn't do their job properly.

[Metallou]

Man LaserX5, you're really agressive towards Ian.
And besides, this comic is generally aimed at kids. It's not like they're going to say "hey, there's older people reading this, so we should attract them too!" while it's fine as it is.