134 replies to this topic

[NeonBlack]

Art and writing, ain't like riding a bicycle. They're more like muscles. If you don't keep them working, they fade away to nothing. It's a sad thing to see - he was pretty good in the early-mid points in Archie's run. He had some good ideas for plot lines and his art was great, even if his dialogue was always a little trite even at the best of times.

[Lynchenberg]

I don't care what anyone says. I really liked the Knuckles series growing up. Is it satisfying to me as an adult the way Garth Ennis's or Alan Moore's best work is? No, but Penders set out to do a comic that would appeal to a little boy, and that's what he did.

[RedAuthar]

I don't care what anyone says. I really liked the Knuckles series growing up. Is it satisfying to me as an adult the way Garth Ennis's or Alan Moore's best work is? No, but Penders set out to do a comic that would appeal to a little boy, and that's what he did.

I thought it was okay, but my brother really liked it

[Shadow]

I don't care what anyone says. I really liked the Knuckles series growing up. Is it satisfying to me as an adult the way Garth Ennis's or Alan Moore's best work is? No, but Penders set out to do a comic that would appeal to a little boy, and that's what he did.

[Lynchenberg]

I don't understand what the drunk Bugs Bunny icon is supposed to mean, but I doubt it's anything nice. All I said was that I liked it when I was a kid, although I have outgrown it. And if it weren't for Penders' controversies, I bet many people would feel the same way. SatAM has just as many flaws looking back on it as the Knuckles series did. And if you can't accept I liked something you don't, then I think implying I'm drunk because of my personsal tastes (at age seven, by the way) says more about you than it does about me.

[Vampfox]

I just finished reading Penders last few Archie Sonic stories and they are pretty bad.

Just look at what he did to Sally. Making her marry Anti Antione because her father told her to.

 

And I can't forget about this.

Rotor is really out of character here, and also seems to have forgotten that his kingdom is at war with Dr. Robotnik.

 

[RedAuthar]

Rotor shot him with a giant laser canon last time he was a visitor....

[Vampfox]

Rotor shot him with a giant laser canon last time he was a visitor....

The funny thing is that Penders wrote both stories. Penders can't even bother to remember his own story canon.

 

Rereading his crap makes me like Ian's writing a lot more then I used to.

[Lynchenberg]

I'm not a fan of this period in the comics, but to be fair, that's one page and Tails is aware of how out-of-character Rotor is being and is reacting to it the same way we do as readers. So perhaps there is a reason for it, perhaps not, I'd have to read the entire issue.

[Uncle Ben]

I'm not a fan of this period in the comics, but to be fair, that's one page and Tails is aware of how out-of-character Rotor is being and is reacting to it the same way we do as readers. So perhaps there is a reason for it, perhaps not, I'd have to read the entire issue.

 

Though a TL;DR version works just as well

[Lynchenberg]

Though a TL;DR version works just as well

 

Perhaps it works just to make a point about Penders' writing. But I think it's kind of unfair. It's like if I got a controversial film like say, The Devils by Ken Russell and showed a screenshot or clip of the most shocking scene in the movie and said "see? This is pornography!" rather than taking in the movie as a whole and saying "no this film has more to it than that, there's a reason for that content."

[RedAuthar]

 

Though a TL;DR version works just as well

 

Perhaps it works just to make a point about Penders' writing. But I think it's kind of unfair. It's like if I got a controversial film like say, The Devils by Ken Russell and showed a screenshot or clip of the most shocking scene in the movie and said "see? This is pornography!" rather than taking in the movie as a whole and saying "no this film has more to it than that, there's a reason for that content."

 

While this is true, these are just examples posted.  Of you'd get more if you'd analyze the comic, but in this case these are just supposed to be moments that felt wrong or out of place. 

 

However, while we're on the subject, I don't see anything wrong with the Sally forced to marry Ant thing, unless you're counting Max being out of character which he was kinda out of it anyways.  It's also not the first time he's done or said something rude/crazy/mean.

 

Sally is usually one of the firsts to put her personal needs or feelings aside for the "greater good".  In this case, the Kingdom needs a King....I don't know why it can't just have a queen but that's another debate all together....Sally would have to marry somebody so that there would be a royal family.  At this time Sonic has been stripped of his Knighthood, he is no longer considered worthy, and Sal and Sonic are on the outs at the time anyways.  

 

Also on the other hand, when Sally let's her emotions/feelings take charge over the "greater good" fans don't like it (example: Infamous Slap scene).  

 

So is this bad writing due to the situation (fans seeming not liking it done the other way) or is this just a bad situation?

 

In my opinion it's just a bad situation.  Everything was supposed to feel off, you weren't supposed to like where it was going, none of the characters did save anti-Ant, the only real downfall is that the ending was garbage as Elias just comes home which solves everything.  

[furrykef]

when Sally let's her emotions/feelings take charge over the "greater good" fans don't like it (example: Infamous Slap scene).

The thing with the slap scene, IMO, isn't that Sally lost control over her emotions, or even that she slapped Sonic. It's that if I wanted to write a scene where Sally slapped Sonic, I could have written it a thousand times better, and so could numerous other people. It has to be done in a way that makes Sally a sympathetic character, and it wasn't.

[RedAuthar]

when Sally let's her emotions/feelings take charge over the "greater good" fans don't like it (example: Infamous Slap scene).

The thing with the slap scene, IMO, isn't that Sally lost control over her emotions, or even that she slapped Sonic. It's that if I wanted to write a scene where Sally slapped Sonic, I could have written it a thousand times better, and so could numerous other people. It has to be done in a way that makes Sally a sympathetic character, and it wasn't.

I get that part, but from a comic creator's point of view, if something gives you negative results you try something different.

Also most of the complaints about the slap is that it was out of character. It wasn't, it was just poorly executed.

[Lynchenberg]

Ken Penders is known worldwide as not only the best Sonic the Hedgehog writer this planet has ever known and an award-winning filmmaker, but also the sensitive, clever, character-defining author of the ground-breaking Knuckles the Echidna comic book series. Recently, Penders fulfilled his lifelong dream of regaining control of the rights to his characters, a feat not even Superman creators Siegel and Shuster nor Alan Moore ever accomplished. While the late Bill Finger does not even receive credit for co-creating Batman, Penders fought for and accomplished his dream of owning the timeless, beloved characters he created such as Julie-Su, Lara-Su, and of course Geoffrey Saint John among countless others that enriched the Sonic universe, and by extension, the lives of anyone who read those comic books. He is also an accomplished artist, as can be glimpsed in his promotional material for the upcoming Lara-Su Chronicles. 

 

Like other artistic treasures such as Vincent Van Gogh, Doménikos Theotokópoulos, Claude Monet , Johannes Vermeer, and Henry Darger, Penders is not currently appreciated during his lifetime. But once he has left the world, his artistic feats such as his live action web series, the cover to the SatAM DVD box sex, The Lost One comic series, and work on DC's Star Trek books will satisfy all humanity's appetite for aesthetic wonder. So let's take a moment to reminiscence on Penders' career shall we? As well as him as a man. Not a boy, a true man. And that's an important distinction that is not defined by one's age.

 

Okay, now that you're done laughing... Yes, the above is tongue-in-cheek. However, I do hold Penders in higher esteem than most fans. I believe the backlash to Penders is mainly personal. Essentially, Penders is a professional who would be respected now if he treated his business associates with respect and common decency.  Yes, his Sonic art's always been iffy and his artwork in general has slid down to quite abysmal depths since working for Archie. However, his early superhero/Star Trek illustration is quite solid. He's not Steve Ditko or Will Eisner, but the man could draw at one point. Where I venture to defend him however, is in his world-building skills. The man couldn't plot or write dialogue well, but he could come up with interesting worlds and characters. That made the Knuckles comics very enjoyable to me as a child. I haven't re-read the series, so maybe it wouldn't hold up. But remember, it was a children's comic. Penders set out to do an action-adventure comic book a seven year-old boy would find exciting. That's what he accomplished, at least for me at that age. I'm far from the only one who enjoyed the series, and I refuse to hold a comic book written for young boys to the standards of a twenty-five year old man. I also enjoyed many of the issues he wrote for Sonic at that age, although I bailed on the series before he did his most infamous work. I found the book was beginning to get overly dramatic in the Bollers era post-issue 100 (although I enjoy his work too,) and the artwork was going sharply downhill, even to my young eyes.

 

When I think about the career of Penders, I don't lament the fact that he worked on the franchise. I regret the way he treated his associates. Imagine if he had treated Hurst well when they were pitching the Sonic film. Hurst wasn't the best writer, but one thing he did really well was put heart into his characterizations. You can tell he loved the characters. That love shines throughout SatAM. By extension, we came to love them as well. That more than makes up for the faults my adult eyes see when revisiting the television series. Imagine if you combined that with Penders' world-building skills. Then hire a writer who really understands story-structure and maybe a dialogue editor to help Hurst out as well. (Len Jansen perhaps?) They could have turned out an amazing script. 

 

In the comics it was the same deal. I actually think Karl Bollers wrote dialogue rather well, imagine if he cooperated with Penders on fleshing out a story. Maybe bring on Mike Gallagher to add a leavening sense of humor? He'd remind them it's a comic about cartoon animals so it wouldn't get over-dramatic. If Hurst had agreed to work on the comics (he was offered, but said no due to low wages,) I imagine he could have shown them how to add pathos to the series without going too far. If that happened and they gradually handed the series over to Ian Flynn when they were ready to move on, I think their time on the comic would be much more fondly remembered. 

 

It's a real shame, and goes to show you why being a humble, nice person is just as important as being talented. For example, take two lauded film directors and examine their careers. After Citizen Kane, Orson Welles never got final cut on a film again. Like Penders, he had ego issues and rubbed studios the wrong way with his attitude. David Lynch on the other hand is just the sweetest man. No matter how bizarre or avant-garde the project is, he has friends in high places rushing to help him make the movies he wants to create. It was only Dune where he didn't have final cut, and the film was a failure. Nevertheless, he was so likable, the producers felt bad about it. They gave him final cut on his next movie, Blue Velvet. The film got him his second Oscar nomination for best director. Since then, he has made masterpiece after masterpiece. I think we could all learn a little lesson from this.

[HeavensChampion]

 

Ken Penders is known worldwide as not only the best Sonic the Hedgehog writer this planet has ever known and an award-winning filmmaker, but also the sensitive, clever, character-defining author of the ground-breaking Knuckles the Echidna comic book series. Recently, Penders fulfilled his lifelong dream of regaining control of the rights to his characters, a feat not even Superman creators Siegel and Shuster nor Alan Moore ever accomplished. While the late Bill Finger does not even receive credit for co-creating Batman, Penders fought for and accomplished his dream of owning the timeless, beloved characters he created such as Julie-Su, Lara-Su, and of course Geoffrey Saint John among countless others that enriched the Sonic universe, and by extension, the lives of anyone who read those comic books. He is also an accomplished artist, as can be glimpsed in his promotional material for the upcoming Lara-Su Chronicles. 

 

Like other artistic treasures such as Vincent Van Gogh, Doménikos Theotokópoulos, Claude Monet , Johannes Vermeer, and Henry Darger, Penders is not currently appreciated during his lifetime. But once he has left the world, his artistic feats such as his live action web series, the cover to the SatAM DVD box sex, The Lost One comic series, and work on DC's Star Trek books will satisfy all humanity's appetite for aesthetic wonder. So let's take a moment to reminiscence on Penders' career shall we? As well as him as a man. Not a boy, a true man. And that's an important distinction that is not defined by one's age.

 

Okay, now that you're done laughing... Yes, the above is tongue-in-cheek. However, I do hold Penders in higher esteem than most fans. I believe the backlash to Penders is mainly personal. Essentially, Penders is a professional who would be respected now if he treated his business associates with respect and common decency.  Yes, his Sonic art's always been iffy and his artwork in general has slid down to quite abysmal depths since working for Archie. However, his early superhero/Star Trek illustration is quite solid. He's not Steve Ditko or Will Eisner, but the man could draw at one point. Where I venture to defend him however, is in his world-building skills. The man couldn't plot or write dialogue well, but he could come up with interesting worlds and characters. That made the Knuckles comics very enjoyable to me as a child. I haven't re-read the series, so maybe it wouldn't hold up. But remember, it was a children's comic. Penders set out to do an action-adventure comic book a seven year-old boy would find exciting. That's what he accomplished, at least for me at that age. I'm far from the only one who enjoyed the series, and I refuse to hold a comic book written for young boys to the standards of a twenty-five year old man. I also enjoyed many of the issues he wrote for Sonic at that age, although I bailed on the series before he did his most infamous work. I found the book was beginning to get overly dramatic in the Bollers era post-issue 100 (although I enjoy his work too,) and the artwork was going sharply downhill, even to my young eyes.

 

When I think about the career of Penders, I don't lament the fact that he worked on the franchise. I regret the way he treated his associates. Imagine if he had treated Hurst well when they were pitching the Sonic film. Hurst wasn't the best writer, but one thing he did really well was put heart into his characterizations. You can tell he loved the characters. That love shines throughout SatAM. By extension, we came to love them as well. That more than makes up for the faults my adult eyes see when revisiting the television series. Imagine if you combined that with Penders' world-building skills. Then hire a writer who really understands story-structure and maybe a dialogue editor to help Hurst out as well. (Len Jansen perhaps?) They could have turned out an amazing script. 

 

In the comics it was the same deal. I actually think Karl Bollers wrote dialogue rather well, imagine if he cooperated with Penders on fleshing out a story. Maybe bring on Mike Gallagher to add a leavening sense of humor? He'd remind them it's a comic about cartoon animals so it wouldn't get over-dramatic. If Hurst had agreed to work on the comics (he was offered, but said no due to low wages,) I imagine he could have shown them how to add pathos to the series without going too far. If that happened and they gradually handed the series over to Ian Flynn when they were ready to move on, I think their time on the comic would be much more fondly remembered. 

 

It's a real shame, and goes to show you why being a humble, nice person is just as important as being talented. For example, take two lauded film directors and examine their careers. After Citizen Kane, Orson Welles never got final cut on a film again. Like Penders, he had ego issues and rubbed studios the wrong way with his attitude. David Lynch on the other hand is just the sweetest man. No matter how bizarre or avant-garde the project is, he has friends in high places rushing to help him make the movies he wants to create. It was only Dune where he didn't have final cut, and the film was a failure. Nevertheless, he was so likable, the producers felt bad about it. They gave him final cut on his next movie, Blue Velvet. The film got him his second Oscar nomination for best director. Since then, he has made masterpiece after masterpiece. I think we could all learn a little lesson from this.

 

Like what?

[Lynchenberg]

 

Don't be a dick.

[RedAuthar]

Pretty much

[HeavensChampion]

 

 

Don't be a dick.

 

Sounds about right.

Oh, and Ken Penders was DREAMING about getting his characters back?

Well, that dream was my nightmare. Oh wait. That's right. They're not his characters. They're ARCHIE'S characters! (Greedy as they may be)

When a blacksmith forges a crown for a king, who does it belong to? the blacksmith or the king?

[RedAuthar]

 

 

 

Don't be a dick.

 

Sounds about right.

Oh, and Ken Penders was DREAMING about getting his characters back?

Well, that dream was my nightmare. Oh wait. That's right. They're not his characters. They're ARCHIE'S characters! (Greedy as they may be)

When a blacksmith forges a crown for a king, who does it belong to? the blacksmith or the king?

 

Ah, but when a Photographer takes a photo of you, the photograph actually belongs to the photographer.  You can't copy/reprint it without their signed permission.  

 

Unless of course you're a public image.....then that's a whole 'nother can of worms.