232 replies to this topic

[PuffinGrandeur]

Penders' plans for the next year showed pretty definitively that he had no idea where he was going with the book anyway. And Archie's terrible art was sometimes due to deadlines (Many Hands was most certainly an attribute, as it's a common pseudonym for artists who don't want to be associated with the output) but more often it was just a lack of standards all around.

[Vampfox]

And BobR tries to defend Penders Lara-Su design.

Everyone is making the erroneous assumption that it's possible to own the style of the characters. Art style can not be owned, copyrighted, trademarked, or protected in any way. You can copyright an image. You can trademark a character. But there is no way to do that with a style. If you wanted to go out and paint pictures in the style of Norman Rockwell or Picasso, you're more than welcome to do so (and many people have.) Just don't try to pass it off as a Norman Rockwell or Picasso -- that's fraud.

[furrykef]

It's not defending the design per se so much as defending its legality, and he does have a point. However I think the design is still based too much on Segas designs, and of course Sega's characters are trademarked. There's a bit more than mere "style", I think. One of the rules used to judge trademark infringement is if there is potential for consumer confusion. In this case I think the answer is a resounding "yes".

And, naturally, even if the design doesn't infringe on Sega's trademarks, that doesn't make him free to use the Lara-Su character.

BTW, I think his "© and ™ Ken Penders, 1993-2011" just demonstrates further cluelessness on Ken Penders' part in several ways.
* Ken Penders did not come up with Lara-Su in 1993 or earlier unless he adapted a pre-existing character of his to the comic. If he did, that may give him some legitimate claim to the character -- but if that's so, why does she still resemble Knuckles so much? Anyway, Sonic 3 (Knuckles' debut) didn't come out until 1994, so it seems quite unlikely he designed the character before then, and it was probably sometime after that. Now, it's not a legal problem to declare a copyright date that's too early, but it still looks sloppy as hell and damages his credibility (not that he has any anymore).
* This is not the correct format for a copyright or trademark notice. Again, not a problem from a legal standpoint, but it looks unprofessional. Considering this is coming from a guy who claims to know all about copyright, this is pretty funny.
* Characters are not governed by copyright law. Copyright law can extend to characters only in the sense that using a character creates a derivative work. So, for example, the character of Knuckles isn't copyrighted, but the game he's from, Sonic 3, is.

What it should say is "Lara-Su is a trademark of Ken Penders". That's it. No years, no copyright (unless he intends to indicate the copyright on the image itself as opposed to the character, in which case it should say "Copyright © 2011 Ken Penders").

[NeonZephyr]

[WARNING: VERY LONG POST. Quotations and reactions follow]

[First of all, I agree with furrykef on his copyright vs. trademark issue. Penders cluelessness about the professionalism here actually offends me, as I'm a college student, and not even in law, and I can grasp this better than he can.]

Now, I'm sure those of you brave enough to lurk Penders' forum (like Darkfox) have seen that little cartoon that was posted to point out his hypocrisy in stating that Shade was too derivative of Julie-Su, and then posting his Knux-recolor-in-a-wig "redesign" of Lara-Su. I personally found it amusing, and agree with it 100%. It's no surprise he was mad about it.

Here's his response

@mavrickindigo:

Remember this message you posted on Saturday, August 20, 2011?

I don't think Knuckles should have been made into a super-intelligent hyper mutant was the right way to go. It really diverged far from the character in the games, and with all the other stuff that was in the Knuckles comic, giving him all of these super powers (like resetting reality in the Image crossover) seemed necessary and kinda stupid.

On the one hand, you're saying I'm derivative, on the other hand you're saying I'm not. That's okay. I've no problem with moving targets as long as I know what I'm dealing with.

As for the cartoon you posted, it clearly shows your lack of awareness of all of the issues involved. It's a lot easier to frame any argument that fits one's POV if one fails to take into account all the opposing arguments.

I'm not going to get into a debate here with anyone whether I'm right or wrong as that will be up to the court to decide.

Let's agree the following facts are indisputable:

* I created Locke, Julie-Su, Lara-Le, Lara-Su, Wynmacher, Constable Remington, Sabre, Kragok, Lien-Da, Dimitri, Edmund, Steppenwolf. Menniker, Enerjak, the Dark Legion, Brotherhood of the Guardians, Echidnaopolis, Cobar, Hawking, Moritori Rex, Thunderhawk, Portal, Jordan and Kayla-La for starters. (The list is actually longer but let's stop there for now.)

* None of these characters or concepts ever appeared in any Sega games prior to their creation.

* I legally own the copyrights to my work. (This is not a debatable fact. Either I have standing in the Federal Courts or I don't. Last time I checked, my copyrights give me standing to protect my work, which is what I'm doing. However you or anyone else feels I have the right to do what I'm doing is irrelevant.)

* Archie owns the copyright to only the printed matter they initially publish. Absent a contract with a freelancer, they do not own the rights to even reprint the work after the first printing. They do not own anything beyond that.

* As other people have pointed out, the indicia on every Sonic comic reads ©Sega. That means Archie owns nothing. So anyone crediting a ©Archie on any fan art is actually perpetuating a misconception. Knuckles©Sega and Julie-Su©Ken Penders are correct tagging on drawings featuring those characters. ©Archie on either of those characters - or any character featured in the Sonic titles they publish - is incorrect, both legally and factually.

Can we at least agree that much?

No, Penders. I cannot. You have not presented me with EVIDENCE. All you have is WORDS. You have no outside sources SHOWING these "copyrights," or anything else, for that matter. Your credibility to me is absolute zero. Show me physical proof, and maybe I'll reconsider, but it's really not likely at this point.

My bullet-by-bullet response:

-And these are all DERIVATIVE. For a comic based on a VIDEO GAME CHARACTER. With their designs all heavily BASED on him, some of them having BLOOD RELATION and PERSONAL CONNECTION to the character being the primary reason why they were even on the page. You were brought on board to expand the universe of ANOTHER COMPANY'S CHARACTER. Also, every character listed is an Echidna. Who are all dependent on Knuckles for their initial relevancy (Example, I adore Remington, but if he'd starred in his own comic and never appeared in Knux's, I wouldn't have cared about him or been interested to learn more). Even Hershey was more interesting on her own at her introduction then these recolors/retools were at theirs. (And, who was Portal? Wasn't that a city? Cities aren't characters. Get "your" own continuity straight. You've had plenty of time to prepare.)

-Again, because you were brought on board to EXPAND THE UNIVERSE FOR THE COMIC. The games were their own continuity. Like how SatAM was its own, and Underground was its own, too. I mean, the creator of Manik and Sonia couldn't reclaim their charcters and keep them as Sonic-y hedgehogs while trying to publish their own material about them. And, they were never in SEGA games, either. Also, I call bull on the "concepts" part. Knuckles has ALWAYS been the Guardian of the Master Emerald, and it is thus heavily suggested that there were others before him. The Floating Island was introduced SECONDS before Knux in Sonic 3, and the first ZONE was even called Angel Island. Your concepts are DERIVATIVE. And not just of SONIC and KNUCKLES either. Your Echidnas are also reminiscent of Star Wars and Star Trek and various other works that existed LONG before Sonic or your recolors. I mean, come on, you named a dimension "THE TWILIGHT ZONE."

-Please show me the documentation of even SOME of these "character copyrights." TSSZ has done a better job of showing their homework than you. Remember this article?: http://www.tssznews....pyright-claims/ [They use quotes from the Copyright Office and so forth, and even had a link. The article is too long to quote fully, so here's a small taste. I suggest reading the full thing.]

In fact, while Penders claimed he outright owns many of the characters he created, the records in the Copyright Office mostly show him only claiming ownership to stories in which they star, and not the characters themselves. As an example, TSSZ News found four entries regarding Geoffrey St. John, as part of a 1998 series. But in all certificates, Penders only claims himself as the “author of story text.” We also couldn’t find in any of the claims he registered anything regarding a claim of ownership to Lien-Da, be it story text or otherwise. The same is also true for Rob O’ the Hedge, who Penders also singled out in his Wednesday announcement.

Penders had better luck on only one other character claim. Another record seeking copyright protection for material in Sonic Super Special #11 contains a claim for art on Hershey, which was not contested by the Copyright Office.

The bottom line is that an overwhelming majority of the 135 active certificates are for storylines and artwork Penders created. Those concerned about whether he legitimately owns the rights to several side characters in the comics can worry a bit less, as those claims appear few and far between–if they were granted at all. Whether the rights on the storylines will be upheld–and if Penders gets any withheld compensation for them–may be for the courts to decide, if and when counsel for Archie Comics elects to pursue the case.

Your copyrights are for art and story. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT YOU HAVE THE CHARACTERS COPYRIGHTED? (Seriously.) I notice your willing to recall TSSZ articles that suggest support in your favor, but you've NEVER managed to dispute this little issue....

-Without physical proof either way, I can't comment on this. I won't accept it as true, but beyond your lack of evidence, this won't be used against you (I can be nice. Ish.) Though, I must say, if you were just after royalties, I might still be on your side.

-In your own words, "the indicia on every Sonic comic reads ©Sega." So... you're suing SEGA for something that EVERY issue of the comic states is © to THEM? You just brush by the little fact that your DERIVATIVE characters are "indicia" of Sonic the Hedgehog, just like Princess Sally, or Manic and Sonia, or Scratch and Grounder, or Chris, or any other Derivative character. And thus, they are © to SEGA, too. Please, try harder. Really. I feel bad ripping apart such a glaring flaw.

Also, this:

When JK Rowlings had her first Harry Potter novel published, all the publisher got was first print rights and probably some reprint rights if the book hit certain sales figues. What the publisher did not receive was the copyrights to her work. And yes, all of that was spelled out in writing before the book was published.

YOU. DID. NOT.

(Note: I kinda blew up here, and actually yelled/cursed at my screen. Which is extreme for me.)

You did NOT just compare your little fiasco to Rowling's life work. Yeah, she kept all the rights. Guess what? HER WORK IS ORIGINAL AND SET IN HER OWN UNIVERSE AND WRITTEN ON HER OWN. You, Penders, wrote a series of stories and characters for a DERIVATIVE work. Notice that word I keep capitalizing? DERIVATIVE. What you did was your own work, but it was FOR another company's (SEGA's, ultimately) universe. Rowling, whether you like her work or not, created her own universe, every character she used was either original (Harry) or in the public domain/historical (Nicolas Flamiel, though he was more MENTIONED). She also published it on her own, not in a LICENSED comic book, and not in conjunction with a team of writers (and, your "teamwork" ploy here falls VERY flat, considering you didn't give a darn about what the other writers wrote or did while you were hired.). Comics and Original Novels are VERY DIFFERENT materials, both in storytelling methods (basics are same, but, that's a rant for another day), and in Copyrighting/Publishing issues. At least compare your situation to a similar one concerning Derivative works. You're comparing Oranges to Pomegranates here. Please stop.


If Penders (And I mean PENDERS. Not BobR or PaulWhatever or whoever his lackeys are. Penders.) comes forth with physical evidence that he's right, that he has the CHARACTER copyrights, not just art (which he can keep, ugh) or story (the bitter taste is heartbreaking), then I'll be willing to accept that. I cannot consider your point of view if you just say "I'm right in these facts" without sources or evidence. We're not talking about the sky being blue, here. Laws have physical proof. USE IT. But, it will always stand that his work is Derivative and was always intended as such. Every time he plays the victim in this in such an arrogant matter, it just reminds me of how someone I once considered to be my favorite comic writer PERIOD is a huge jerk and has slipped from not just having no respect from me anymore, but is actually dropping into the negative, something no one, especially not a previous childhood hero/influence, as ever managed to accomplish in my life.

Even Voldemort has better standing with me.


Also, Lammy said on Penders' board:

If your fans are really that dedicated to you, they'll buy your stuff even if you use a different art style.

THIS. If you loved your fans more than your own ego/money, you'd see this. But, as I've learned personally, you clearly DON'T.

Also, Lammy, who are you? Because I love you for this.


TL;DR: Penders ranted at people's arguments, and compared himself to a work that is vastly more successful, more recognized and ultimately more original (and not-derivative) than his own. He has no proof on this, and I really want to call him out on his lack of evidence. Also, Lammy is awesome and I love him/her.

Bitter? Yeah, I guess so. Heartbroken? More than you can imagine.

(I almost want to join his forum just to post this there, but I feel dirty just lurking there. Plus, this has distracted me from Finals for an hour and a half already...)

[Speedy_25]

wow............ all i have to say is.....Penders, you're fucked.......

[Vampfox]

More crap from Ken Penders.

NOTE: Since this talks about the previously announced project, I thought it appropriate to post the following here rather than start a new thread.

Over the years many of the characters, concepts and stories I created have proven extremely popular with fans of the comic series SONIC THE HEDGEHOG along with its spin-off title KNUCKLES THE ECHIDNA as demonstrated recently by the reveal of the redesign of my character Lara-Su, which has sparked intense interest among the fans.

Now, unveiled here for the first time is the new look for another of my creations – one of my main characters, JULIE-SU.



As a great fan of the work of Jack Kirby, I always loved the Fourth World approach he used to bring forth his New Gods concepts. Just as Jack used the JIMMY OLSEN and SUPERMAN series as his starting point, so too am I using the stories I created for the Knuckles character as a springboard for what comes next.

At this time, I'm at work finishing up the audio tracks for THE REPUBLIC - starring Marc Singer and Sean Young - so it'll be ready for release early in 2012, as well as finishing up THE LOST ONES trailer presentation.

I am also at work on the first of a series of graphic novels that fall under the umbrella title of THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES.

Anyone familiar with the Knuckles material I created up to and including SONIC #124, along with any incarnation of the MOBIUS: 25 YEARS LATER material I also created, which is widely considered canon by the fans, will be well prepared for what comes next. As for the newbies interested in checking out THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES, you needn't worry about being left behind. All will be explained as the story progresses.

Stay tuned for further details of THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES and find out how the previously announced BROTHERHOOD OF THE GUARDIANS project fits into the plan. A lot of the questions fans have been asking will be answered along the way.

[NeonZephyr]

More crap from Ken Penders.

[Penders quote erased because.. blleeeehhgarrarargh. Also, it's too long.]

Dear...just...why.

I was in a great mood (Just beat a game), and came online to set up the DLC for the sequel, and... (I gotta close some of these windows...)

Just. No.

Also, "Domestic Mate"?

...Excuse me?

I'm female, and I don't have any intention of getting married (whether I find a "mate" or not. Actually, I prefer the term "mate" over "spouse"...). I'm also pretty thicked-skinned when it comes to direct insults and blatant sexism. I understand human cultures have been sexist for so long, that the equality between sexes in our society is relatively recent (and the level of it is very debatable, depending on location and so forth) that it's often subconscious for many people. I mean, I grew up in a rural town that's heavily based in a branch of Christianity that still tries to pressure girls to only wear skirts (I wouldn't be caught dead in one, myself...). I'm honestly usually pretty chill about it.

And, I'm still insulted by this phrase. You have no idea.

How many ways are you going to tick me off before this is over, Penders? I mean, really. How hard it is to make sure that you're not offending your (supposed) reader-base? Seriously. "Domestic Partner" would even be better. Or, "Life Partner" or "Life Mate." Heck, the cliched "Soul Mate" would be better. I mean, come on. Does he even LOOK at what he writes before posting it online. Penders, please get a beta/editor. Even I have one. And I'm nowhere near ready to publish anything original. Just... extreme laziness on his part.


And, "The Guardian"? Seriously? We all know you mean Knuckles. Just say it already, so SEGA can counter-sue your hide into oblivion and we can get on with our lives. Prancing around the issue is like seeing that there's a walrus eating at your table and acting like it's totally normal. (Though, admittedly, Rote would be awesome to see at your table...)


Art's still stiff and... so forth. If hell freezes over and Penders somehow wins, please, for the love of all that is holy, PLEASE let someone with some actual artistic capabilities take over the art. Please.

Also, this is too heavily-remnescent of Star Trek and similar works. (The tech and such.) Maybe we should call some related companies and they can sue for IP-infringment... Since that's what he's doing to BioWare with Chronicles. Heck, I think I see a little Mass Effect-ness in that. (Am I just pulling at straws here? Maybe. Maybe that's my point.)

I'm not even gonna start with the SEGA-style-ness. I'll rant about that later.


For now, I'm gonna just bash my head against my desk until I forget this exists.... Unless someone has something to cheer me up again. Like faster DLC download speeds. Or a kitten.

I'd prefer the kitten.

[RedSonic]

I was hoping to watch some monumental train wreck this upcoming year. And since the Wonder Woman tv show wasn't picked up, I suppose THIS will be my trainwreck of choice.

Apparently, marvel just won a similar case over someone who thought they owned the right to the Ghost Rider character. Someone should show THIS to Ken Penders: Source

This might actually set a legal precident that Archie can use against penders.

[NeonZephyr]

I was hoping to watch some monumental train wreck this upcoming year. And since the Wonder Woman tv show wasn't picked up, I suppose THIS will be my trainwreck of choice.

Apparently, marvel just won a similar case over someone who thought they owned the right to the Ghost Rider character. Someone should show THIS to Ken Penders: Source

This might actually set a legal precident that Archie can use against penders.

Interesting. I hope Archie's lawyers see that. And, honestly, I hope Penders doesn't. He doesn't seem to understand law or legalities anyway. (Why did he say he has FOUR lawyers? For a case like this? When he's "penniless"? What.)

Maybe Archie has copies of their payroll somewhere. That could work here, logically, if it settled the Ghost Rider thing.

And, what's this bull Penders is throwing around about the characters existing since 1993? Wasn't Sonic 3 (and by extenstion, Knux) released in 1994? And the Knuckles comic took a little while to get going after that. Who does he think he's fooling?

[furrykef]

Yeah, I pointed out the 1993 thing earlier (and on that note I see Ken still doesn't know how to write a proper copyright and trademark notice). I wonder if he did create the characters in 1993 and adapted them to echidnas later on. Either way it looks silly.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

Ken Penders is a Megalomaniac...

[Speedy_25]

Ken Penders is fucked.....for all I care

[LaserX5]

I wonder what Penders will do with that new story arc of his should he lose in court?

[Vampfox]

And here's more Penders crap.

This has been a story literally years in the making and was being plotted out even during the early days of the KNUCKLES series I was writing back in the day. It was always my intent to create an epic mythology that tracked the hero's complete life, including the history that preceded him as well as the legacy he left behind.

One of the main aspects that have come to define what we call heroes are their adversaries, and in the upcoming LARA-SU CHRONICLES, there are few that more ruthless, treacherous or deadlier than Lien-Da of the Dark Legion.



She is a key player in the civil war that's been a long time coming between the factions of science and religion of her people, and she has no intention of coming out on the losing end. Among the Dark Legion itself, there is no one more feared within its ranks, not even her great ancestor, Dimitri.

THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES is currently being developed for release in two different versions. There's the 20th Century Version (traditional print graphic novel) and the 21st Century Version (digital release). What makes the digital release different from most digital downloads is that not only is the art being produced for multi-purpose use, to allow for the limited use of animation in non-iPad/iPhone formats (since they don't allow for the use of Flash technology), but I'm currently exploring adding features such as an audio track and bi-lingual word balloons, making the story immediately accessible to readers in either English or Spanish. If circumstances allow, we may add on additional language translations to allow for wider global accessibility.

Due to my proximity in the Hollywood area with access to a number of creative professionals, and my experience with film projects THE LOST ONES and THE REPUBLIC, there will be some surprises as to the vocal talents involved with the project.

I'll have further details of both the story and the release formats in future announcements.

Lien-Da's design is really really ugly.

[furrykef]

Jesus Christ in a handbasket. That is ugly.

The anatomy is bad too. It looks like she's about to fall over.

[Ann Chovi]

I just.... I can't look at this "art" and not be enraged that he's an industry professional and other, much more qualified artists I know are not. It's just failure of epic proportions.

His character design skills were never amazing at the best of times, but that re-vamped Lien-Da just screams bad design / no sense of color theory. It gives me a headache just looking at it.

[NeonZephyr]

...I don't even have words anymore. Penders is seriously slipping into madness. This is utter proof. Just... what.

This is not sexy. Not by any standard. Not even a creepy fetish. Nor is she intimidating in any way. She looks more like a badly-drawn Knux in drag, with useless tech stuff. And a really bad wig that even a freezing hobo would throw out. And the colors... the shading... what is wrong with her hip/butt? It looks deformed to me. ...somebody please make this stop.

SEGA, why aren't you doing something? God, if this was a film, it'd be C&D'ed by now...

[PuffinGrandeur]

Penders is suing Sega, so I think they're focusing a bit more on that probably.

[Ann Chovi]

Penders is suing Sega, so I think they're focusing a bit more on that probably.

Penders is suing Sega
Penders is suing Sega
Penders is suing Sega



How does he even THINK he's going to win???

[furrykef]

Penders is suing Sega? Er, got a citation?