232 replies to this topic

[PuffinGrandeur]

Happy Halloween.

[NeonZephyr]

I seriously wish I could watch some sort of tv coverage on this. I get the feeling that this won't end well for Penders. I just hope that TSSZ has someone on this. And that it doesn't last long. (I feel really bad for this jury. Especially if they're not gamers or Sonic fans.)

It feels weird siding with a big company, instead of on the side of the common man.

Either way, scary stuff's about to happen for someone....

[Vampfox]

I just hope that TSSZ has someone on this.

I agree I hope that they have someone on this.

Ian has been silent on the legal battle for awhile. I imagine that he is not allowed to talk about the case.
Penders on the other hand said alot of stuff over the past few months. At one point he said that Sega does not own the Satam characters(he's wrong Sega does. Remember their were plans at one point to put Sally in a Sonic game)and the Archie characters.
Their was also talk that Scott Shaw was seeking copyrights for his work on the Sonic mini-series.
Penders said that he never signed a contract. Archie produced copies of documents with Penders signature. Penders said they are fake.
Should be a very interesting legal case.

[NeonZephyr]

Penders said they are fake.

A killer defense, man. Seriously, I'm not surprised that he said that. Instead of using his "four lawyers" to find a loophole in them, he just goes "they're fake." It just seems like a...juvenile response to me.

The fact that Ian has been tight-lipped and wanted his board to not discuss it shows a sort of legal professionalism that Penders clearly didn't care about. A sane person would have a mindset of "we're busy with the legalities right now, can't discuss this currently." Even a "We're feeling confident, but no further comment," would be understandable. Not this "I'm right, they're wrong, there's no way I can lose, here's how I'll celebrate" vibe Penders is giving. His lawyers are either unaware of this, or they're giving some of the worse legal advice I've ever heard (I'm not even a law student, and I know better than to talk extensively about a case before it even goes to court.)

He also seems to jump on anyone that disagrees with his position or behavior and calls them "archie-trolls" if I remember correctly. Which, in retrospect, might be why he seems to have, I dunno, five people that are truly on his side.


And yeah, SEGA owns everything. It's an official, derivative, licensed work. I mean, Ian couldn't do his own thing with Thrash and Matilda going on an adventure with the Baron, doing battle against the Four [...three] Brides. They're derivative (two/three of which are even related to an official character).

As interesting as this will be to watch unfold, I still think that the whole situation is just plain silly. (well, on Penders' side, I understand Archie's reaction)

[Vampfox]

I find it annoying that Penders and his army of about 10 fans(most of whom have been ban from every other Sonic site on the internet)keep trying to make Penders out to look like a victim.

It will be bad if Penders wins. His echidna characters almost all look like Knuckles.
I like Julie-Su but her base design is a pink Knuckles.
If Penders wins would that make recolors legal? It's bad enough that I have to see recolors whenever I look up Archie Sonic fanart. But I don't want recolors and using other's character designs to be considered legal.

[NeonZephyr]

I find it annoying that Penders and his army of about 10 fans(most of whom have been ban from every other Sonic site on the internet)keep trying to make Penders out to look like a victim.

If anyone has the right to call themselves a victim here, it's the fans. No matter what happens, the fans lose SOMETHING. If Pender wins (which I still doubt, though I haven't heard anything about how it's going yet, so...), then it will be the metaphorical death of his characters, some of which are well-liked by fans (I believe I've said I'm a closet Remington fan), as he would never be granted permission to use Sonic or Knuckles in his own work, and thus he would have to revamp everything so much it wouldn't be the same. Plus, they'd be pulled from the main series. So, then, no one would EVER be able to enjoy further adventures of any of the characters involved again, and it would limit the number of new readers that could enjoy them, too.

If Archie wins (which, honestly, makes the most sense from an unbiased position), then we don't lose MUCH, but a small, deep part of some fans have already lost because they (like myself) are forced to accept that the creator of something they loved and possibly even touched their lives wanted to take it away from them just because it wasn't making HIM money anymore. (He can use the word "rights" all he wants. He's doing it for the money. He would've negotiated BEFORE trying to copyright or unleash ultimatums.)

I mean, to use a personal example (since I like those), the Knuckles book was particularly special to me growing up, despite the flaws, particularly issue 25. I spent a great deal of my childhood without my father, and I connected to Knuckles' feeling of parental abandonment. His reunion with Locke and the following relationship of father and child were part of what helped me to gradually realize that my own father still loved me, despite his mistakes, and I decided to allow him to be a part of my life again. Locke is part of why I had my father to turn to from my adolescence onwards (and still do with increasing frequency now that I'm on my own). The fact that the writer that created something I connected to personally and was so influenced by wanted to take it away from me (on top of his other unprofessional behavior) has sparked a resentment for Penders that I don't think can be reasoned away.

I mean, how is it so hard to just move on and create something original? I'm not even twenty, yet, and I can do that with ease (actually, I have Plot Bunny Disease...), but a grown man with (possibly grown) children can't? What.

If Penders wins would that make recolors legal?

I refuse to accept this possibility. I mean, look at my own Sonic fan character (well, you can barely see much in my avatar, but still). Granted, I've tried to make her somewhat my own, but in the end, she's essentially a retooled, recolored Lupe (and other Mobian Wolves) with different hair and bigger ears. She's not really "Copyrighted" to me. While I could retool her and make her stand apart from the Sonic universe and be copyrightable, I really don't want to do that, so I accept that I can't be all "Mine. Do not steal, or I sue." (Not that anyone would, of course. That'd be silly.)

If it ever DID (*shudder*), then the internet would become rather inhospitable in most, if not all, Sonic-related communities. And even some non-Sonic, I'd imagine...

...

...Archie, darn it, you better win.

[furrykef]

Recolors can be quite a contentious thing. Telltale Games got away with using a character recolor in the game Poker Night at the Inventory. They took the Monkey Island character Winslow, even gave him the same voice, and just changed his clothing and colors. (They couldn't use him as-is because he belongs to Lucas Arts.) But it probably helped that you could only see him on-screen for about a minute or two at the start of the game, and from then on you only hear his voice. If he were to have a starring on-screen role, that could have been more of a problem.

[Vampfox]

Look at them.

Most of them look like Knuckles in cosplay outfits.

Julie-Su, Locke, Geoffrey St. John, Julayla, Kragok, The Dark Legion, Enerjak, Dimitri, Edmund, Lien-Da and Queen Alicia, to name but a few of the many characters appearing in my stories -- they're all mine. They weren't inspired by anything SEGA produced nor did they exist prior to the stories in which I created them. Without a specific written transferral of rights from me to Archie, neither they or SEGA can lay claim to what I created. All they received when they paid me for my stories was first publishing rights. That's it.

That's a laugh. Of course they were inspired by characters that Sega owns and/or produce.

First, there's the issue of future use of my characters, concepts and stories. The fact is my work has value, whether in context with the Sonic and Knuckles series, or without. There is an audience that wants to see where I would have taken these characters. If I am able to negotiate what I want on this point, everyone can be a winner. However, if I am left without the use of Sonic and/or Knuckles, on the flip side, neither Archie or SEGA will be able to use my characters, concepts and stories in any format either. Archie and SEGA will be able to still publish comics with Sonic and Knuckles, but it'll be as if they were rebooting the whole series from scratch. There would not even be reprints of the classic tales.

Here he talks about trying to use Sonic and Knuckles. This tells me that he knows that he needs them if anyone's going to want to read his stories.

[NoctisxThexFox]

Im a little upset because I loved a lot of his work and fell in love with pretty much everything he did with the echidnas (I love Remington and the echidnas). But i dont think they needed to go to court for this

[NeonZephyr]

Quick update from TSSZ:

Both Sides with More Time to Prepare

As previously reported, this week was supposed to be the week the civil trial between Archie Comics and former Sonic comic writer Ken Penders started, with the possibility of knowing the outcome later this month.

It turns out that, at the last minute, those plans were delayed. TSSZ has learned through public documents that the judge overseeing the case vacated the previous trial date, and rescheduled it for January 30th. Also of note: the judge scheduled a settlement conference for the morning of December 1st, so there’s a chance the matter could still be resolved before the end of the year–and without much more rancor, at that.

We will continue to keep tabs on the matter.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Source: http://www.tssznews....o-january-2012/


Am I the only person who just wants this to be over already? And, why the heck was this delayed anyway?

[And why is the internet trying to tell me that TSSZ is an attack site? What.]

[Vampfox]

Am I the only person who just wants this to be over already?

I feel the same way.

[NeonZephyr]

What on Earth happened that it would be delayed, anyway? This whole thing seems simple, provide physical proof, explain legalities, open and shut, thank you, goodbye, the end. Why is this being dragged out?

Granted, the excessive length of time involved might lead to Penders giving up and just settling with Archie outside of a trial. Isn't he having financial troubles? And didn't he say he had, like, four lawyers?

[Vampfox]

Granted, the excessive length of time involved might lead to Penders giving up and just settling with Archie outside of a trial. Isn't he having financial troubles? And didn't he say he had, like, four lawyers?

I very much doubt that Penders is going to settle. He's put on too much of a show for his fans to just settle now.

[NeonZephyr]

Alright, I might be a little delusional with optimism there. I didn't think he'd want to, though, mind you. I just meant I thought he might have no other financial option by the time January comes around. Though, he's clearly not thinking logically with finances by this point.

Has he said anything about this new development on his forum? I'm not too eager to lurk there, as I'm sure you've guessed.

[Vampfox]

Has he said anything about this new development on his forum? I'm not too eager to lurk there, as I'm sure you've guessed.

Penders doesn't post much on his forum anymore.

It's pretty much a dead forum at this point.

[NeonZephyr]

It's pretty much a dead forum at this point.

Well, I guess I should've expected that. I mean, he doesn't exactly attract a sane, active community.

Wow, I'm just being mean to him lately. That should probably make me feel bad, but it really doesn't
I'm a terrible person.

[Vampfox]

Well last year their was a flame war between Penders fans and Sonic fans who liked Ian's writing that got so bad that Penders created new rules for the forum that turned alot of people away.

Okay, folks. Ken and I have always been one for openness of discussions on message boards. But we see there are several of you on here that continue to abuse that privilege. So from this point on, discussion in the Sonic, Knuckles, & SEGA forum will be limited to those stories written by Ken Penders. There will be no discussion of the current comic, Ian Flynn, Karl Bollers, or any other Sonic artists' works unless associated with a Ken Penders' story. And this includes works that build off his stories. If it wasn't penned by Ken, he has had no input in what other authors have done with his creations.

I will be locking all topics not discussing a Ken Penders' story right after posting this message.

Anyone ignoring this rule will be banned one day for the first offense, a week for the second, and possibly longer leading up to a permanent ban for three or more. Do I make myself clear, people? This is Ken Penders' board...at least you should have proper manners to discuss his works and not anyone else. So we're stopping it here and now.

EDIT: Topics concerning the games, game play, and SEGA in general are now open again.

Pretty much the only thing you're allowed to talk about on Penders forum is Penders work.

[DCC]

So there is a delay. Legal matters seem to take longer than it is wanted.

[NeonZephyr]

Well last year their was a flame war between Penders fans and Sonic fans who liked Ian's writing that got so bad that Penders created new rules for the forum that turned alot of people away.

[...]

Pretty much the only thing you're allowed to talk about on Penders forum is Penders work.

This level of unprofessional behavior really doesn't surprise me any more. Because, you know, in Penders' eyes, we apparently can't like both.

He clearly understands what the fans want. [/sarcasm]

The more I learn about his behavior in all this, the more bitter the bad taste in my mouth becomes.

So there is a delay. Legal matters seem to take longer than it is wanted.

Honestly, in most cases, the delay would mildly irritate me, but I wouldn't really be all that put off. New evidence to prove innocence/guilt comes to light all the time.

But, this case isn't some complicated homicide or a fight over child custody or something. This is a simple case of derivative works and copyright. (I used the words "simple" and "copyright" in the same sentence. Weird.) My neighbor, a casual Sonic fan who has never read the comics a day in her life, took a brief look at this...brouhaha the other day, and laughed. She seriously thought he would be laughed out of court by the judge. (I wish I took a picture of her expression when I told her it's going to trial.)

So, really, I'm more confused as to why THIS case is delayed. It seems to me (and by extension, the average person on the jury), that it would be a logical case of contractual dialogue stating which party is right.

But, then, I'm not a law student, and my understanding of the legal system is minimal.

[Lord Seth]

Penders said they are fake.

A killer defense, man. Seriously, I'm not surprised that he said that. Instead of using his "four lawyers" to find a loophole in them, he just goes "they're fake." It just seems like a...juvenile response to me.

Unless they were fakes. Because, if they were...well, what else should he do? It's hardly juvenile to call something that's fake a fake. Now, if they weren't fakes, you have a point. But if he's correct, then it's hardly a juvenile response for him to say that.

Granted, the excessive length of time involved might lead to Penders giving up and just settling with Archie outside of a trial. Isn't he having financial troubles? And didn't he say he had, like, four lawyers?

I very much doubt that Penders is going to settle. He's put on too much of a show for his fans to just settle now.

For what it's worth, I believe Penders has claimed that he wanted to settle from the beginning, but Archie refused.

As for why the court case was delayed, the fact the judge said they have to meet in December to discuss it indicates to me that the judge wants them to settle out of court, hence the deadline and ordered meeting.