184 replies to this topic

[PuffinGrandeur]

M:25YL isn't the One True Future. Actually, it explicitly ISN'T the one true future.

[LaserX5]

Genesis is not a sidetrack, it's part of the story. It's THROUGH Genesis that we see if she dies or not.

Uh no, this is definitely a sidetrack arc, Puffin.

Think about it from this scenario.

In the old TV shows where the hero was found in a situation where he or one of his friends could be killed, they would have the narrator make a big speech about, "Ooh, is this the end for our heroes? Tune in next week to see to find out."

Now imagine you tune in next week, and they show a new episode that has nothing to do with the last one. Would you not be ticked and demand, "Hey, what gives? I want to see what happens to them!"

Same thing here. This Genesis story is just to delay the cliffhanger in order to bring in extra bucks, as well as cause the fans to stew in their own juices about the whole story.

My guess is, Ian wrote himself into a corner regarding Sally's fate, and had to use this Genesis arc to bail him out. Think about this. When Eggman hit the button after Sally was apparently shot, why did everything turn white and then restart to the beginning? What was the point in that anyway?

Deus ex machina anyone?

[furrykef]

My guess is, Ian wrote himself into a corner regarding Sally's fate, and had to use this Genesis arc to bail him out.

I'm guessing that Ian's schedule is not so tight that he hadn't planned this whole thing out. They're probably just milking the tension for as long as they think they can get away with. 'Cause kids like waiting half a year for a story to resolve! (Hint: sarcasm.)

[PuffinGrandeur]

When Eggman hit the button, it made Genesis start, which was his whole big deal since Iron Dominion ended. Interviews say a life hangs in the balance during Genesis, part 3 has "old memories resurfacing." It's not just "not a detour from the plot," it's the MAJOR FOCUS of the plot.

Jesus, when Eggman hit the button to change everything THAT WAS GENESIS STARTING, which WE STILL DON'T KNOW the full ramifications of his scheme. How COULD it be a sidetrack with everything leading up to this for over a year?

[LaserX5]

I'm guessing that Ian's schedule is not so tight that he hadn't planned this whole thing out. They're probably just milking the tension for as long as they think they can get away with. 'Cause kids like waiting half a year for a story to resolve! (Hint: sarcasm.)

That's what I'm beginning to think too. Ian thought he had this amazing story where he would get a shock from the audience about Sally's fate, but then didn't think throughly about what to do next in order to justify this decision.

Another reason why he's not the right writer for the job.

When Eggman hit the button, it made Genesis start, which was his whole big deal since Iron Dominion ended. Interviews say a life hangs in the balance during Genesis, part 3 has "old memories resurfacing." It's not just "not a detour from the plot," it's the MAJOR FOCUS of the plot.

Jesus, when Eggman hit the button to change everything THAT WAS GENESIS STARTING, which WE STILL DON'T KNOW the full ramifications of his scheme. How COULD it be a sidetrack with everything leading up to this for over a year?

You still didn't answer my question. Again, why did everything go back to the beginning when Eggman hit that button? What was the point in that? You really think that was part of his plan?

"Oh, I'll make a device that will restart everything over for the time being so I can nail the Freedom Fighters in a more primitive environment. Yea, brilliant plan if I do say myself."

This Genesis arc is completely pointless. There was no need for it, nor was it even necessary when the life of a Freedom Fighter hangs in the balance.

You show me an earlier issue that shows us this was Eggman's plan from the beginning. I do not believe that for a second.

This is what we writers call, a quick fix.

Sally probably was killed by that gun, but since Ian didn't want to suffer the wrath of the fans who care about this character, he made this deus ex machina styled story to cover his hide so he can say, "See, Sally's ok, everyone."

[furrykef]

Boy, it must be nice to be a writer for a kids' comic book based on a video game. No need for real drama or telling an interesting story. Just kill somebody and come up with utter bullshit to cover it up.

This is reminding me of other abysmal moments in Archie like when Sonic threw dirt in his shoe to form a bridge as he was falling (Sonic #48, I think), or the time he formed a water ball to throw at a bad guy (one of the comic specials from around the same period... maybe Brave New World?). Or -- appropriately enough -- the deus-ex-machina ending of Endgame. (Or maybe anas ex machina -- "a duck out of a machine" ) Only this is on a much larger scale than all of those things, considering it's taking place over an entire arc.

[henryiii]

Boy, it must be nice to be a writer for a kids' comic book based on a video game. No need for real drama or telling an interesting story. Just kill somebody and come up with utter bullshit to cover it up.

This is reminding me of other abysmal moments in Archie like when Sonic threw dirt in his shoe to form a bridge as he was falling (Sonic #48, I think), or the time he formed a water ball to throw at a bad guy (one of the comic specials from around the same period... maybe Brave New World?). Or -- appropriately enough -- the deus-ex-machina ending of Endgame. (Or maybe anas ex machina -- "a duck out of a machine" ) Only this is on a much larger scale than all of those things, considering it's taking place over an entire arc.

You pretty much nailed it."kids comic" and "game comic" are the get out of jail cards for Ian apologists when defending his work.

[LaserX5]

Boy, it must be nice to be a writer for a kids' comic book based on a video game. No need for real drama or telling an interesting story. Just kill somebody and come up with utter bullshit to cover it up.

This is reminding me of other abysmal moments in Archie like when Sonic threw dirt in his shoe to form a bridge as he was falling (Sonic #48, I think), or the time he formed a water ball to throw at a bad guy (one of the comic specials from around the same period... maybe Brave New World?). Or -- appropriately enough -- the deus-ex-machina ending of Endgame. (Or maybe anas ex machina -- "a duck out of a machine" ) Only this is on a much larger scale than all of those things, considering it's taking place over an entire arc.

Makes me wonder how this comic survived as long as it did when I see moments like this.

You pretty much nailed it."kids comic" and "game comic" are the get out of jail cards for Ian apologists when defending his work.

Get out of jail free cards...

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[PuffinGrandeur]

You still didn't answer my question. Again, why did everything go back to the beginning when Eggman hit that button? What was the point in that? You really think that was part of his plan?

We don't know because the whole thing hasn't been fully revealed, but judging by Eggman's speech in 211, the previews beforehand showing off specific quotes about how Eggman's changing things for a clean slate, and his other small appearances since the Iron Dominion, he's rewriting reality itself to be more beneficial to his situation. There's a possibility he's trying to simply erase Sonic from the world by inserting him somewhere else, or that he's trying to defeat Sonic before he absorbs so much chaos energy and becomes so powerful, or that he's even just trying to make it so Sonic doesn't affiliate with the Acorn Kingdom and leaves him alone. But there are TONS of bits and pieces showing off that this is Eggman's plan, both in the solicits for what's to come (showing off old memories resurfacing, a life hanging in the balance based on what happens,) the current story (the retrieval of the Chaos Emerald, the DEL's refueling stations for the Death Egg II, the blatant disregard, distraction and acceptance of Sonic foiling him,) and the past buildup (shown off through the [sometimes even pointed out through previews] dialog, and obvious 20th Anniversary timing.) Was it specifically known that Eggman was going to cause Sonic Genesis by using the power of the Death Egg II and the blue Chaos Emerald to reset reality? No, not to everybody (although a LOT of people had figured that out.) But that doesn't mean there was nothing leading up to it, and that certainly doesn't mean it's a distraction of the story: it is THE MAIN FOCUS OF THE PLOT. Sally's death is practically a DETAIL in comparison. It's just STUPID to even think that this whole arc was written to try and hastily clean up Sally's death when IT CAME FIRST and IT'S THE REAL STORY. If Genesis didn't already exist, then Sally wouldn't have had this scene at all: it'd be very easy not to write it. But since you're clearly changing what you think so as to hate more easily (it's hilarious that you said it was obvious Sally would die and that she wouldn't die ON THE SAME PAGE) I don't know why I'm bothering.

[LaserX5]

We don't know because the whole thing hasn't been fully revealed, but judging by Eggman's speech in 211, the previews beforehand showing off specific quotes about how Eggman's changing things for a clean slate, and his other small appearances since the Iron Dominion, he's rewriting reality itself to be more beneficial to his situation. There's a possibility he's trying to simply erase Sonic from the world by inserting him somewhere else, or that he's trying to defeat Sonic before he absorbs so much chaos energy and becomes so powerful, or that he's even just trying to make it so Sonic doesn't affiliate with the Acorn Kingdom and leaves him alone. But there are TONS of bits and pieces showing off that this is Eggman's plan, both in the solicits for what's to come (showing off old memories resurfacing, a life hanging in the balance based on what happens,) the current story (the retrieval of the Chaos Emerald, the DEL's refueling stations for the Death Egg II, the blatant disregard, distraction and acceptance of Sonic foiling him,) and the past buildup (shown off through the [sometimes even pointed out through previews] dialog, and obvious 20th Anniversary timing.) Was it specifically known that Eggman was going to cause Sonic Genesis by using the power of the Death Egg II and the blue Chaos Emerald to reset reality? No, not to everybody (although a LOT of people had figured that out.) But that doesn't mean there was nothing leading up to it, and that certainly doesn't mean it's a distraction of the story: it is THE MAIN FOCUS OF THE PLOT. Sally's death is practically a DETAIL in comparison. It's just STUPID to even think that this whole arc was written to try and hastily clean up Sally's death when IT CAME FIRST and IT'S THE REAL STORY. If Genesis didn't already exist, then Sally wouldn't have had this scene at all: it'd be very easy not to write it. But since you're clearly changing what you think so as to hate more easily (it's hilarious that you said it was obvious Sally would die and that she wouldn't die ON THE SAME PAGE) I don't know why I'm bothering.

You still haven't shown visual proof this was Eggman's plan all along.

The only thing I've seen the previous issues have confirmed is the fact Eggman was planning to build the Death Egg and use it to annihilate his enemies.

Well, why didn't it then? Why is the story going back to the beginning instead?

As I posted earlier, I believe Ian wrote himself into a corner when he had Sally appear to be shot and New Mobotropolis being vaporized by the Death Egg attack.

What to do, what to do...

Why, have a story of them back when it all began, thus undoing all the damage he did of course. That way, no harm, no foul. And since it is Sonic's 20th anniversary as well, It's a two-fer.



Seriously, you can't see this?

[PuffinGrandeur]

So, either the continuity ends altogether and restarts with Eggman winning, and we then start with Genesis. We NEVER see anything past that point again, and as such it isn't a cliffhanger at all. Sally will never be okay, because the ending had her shot to death. Going "back to the past" wouldn't change anything, because when we went back the damage would STILL BE DONE. It doesn't even work by your own byzantine thought process.

Or, the story is CAUSED by the white reality-shifty thing Eggman was doing to everything. That's why the beginning is now DIFFERENT than it was before: that's why old memories are resurfacing in part 3. That's why Eggman had given up on winning against Sonic in the present entirely. That's why he needed a Chaos Emerald when his Death Egg II is powered by oil and Power Rings. That's why he talked about how Sonic's growth over time has made him unbeatable when he escaped the Iron Dominion prison with Snively. Hell, even the little blurbs in the comic specifically state that Genesis is changing things, as will the epilogue. There wasn't a specific layout of blueprints saying EGGMAN WILL MAKE SONIC GENESIS because that'd be stupid, but there was a lot of buildup, to the point that many people actually came to this conclusion when the Death Egg II just appeared.

I can't believe you can't figure out that the reality wipe is Eggman's doing: IN 225 ITSELF, Snively says it's going to affect everyone in the Death Egg too, and the next panels show the wipe affecting EVERYTHING. He didn't vaporize New Mobotropolis, and if he had "written himself into a corner" by doing so, he wouldn't use Genesis to 'distract' while... nothing changes about New Mobotropolis being wiped out, the story just WOULDN'T BE IN THE BOOK. How do you not GET that? Everything Ian writes does not magically appear on everybody's book as soon as it happens. If he writes himself into a corner, he has to rewrite the story that does so, not IMMEDIATELY follow it up with a four-issue arc to try and "distract" people from... something. But again, this is a topic where Sally is so clearly going to be dead by the end of this arc and Sally is so clearly going to survive by the end of this arc. So I think it'd be best if I just quit before the racetrack turns into a Mobius Strip.

[LaserX5]

Ok, after studying 225 more thoroughly, I can see this was his intention after all.

Still, my question to all of this is, why?

Eggman has a giant Death Egg in his possession to crush his enemies to dust, and he instead uses to basically to restart everything over from the beginning?

This has plothole written all over it.

And yes, Eggman's device has basically started everything over from the beginning for the time being. If that's not true, why is Sally ok without any signs of injury from 225? Not to mention Sonic introduces himself to her and the rest of the comrades he's known since issue 1.

This is why I still believe Ian is using the Genesis arc for a quick fix to his dilemma regarding Sally, because it's basically true when I really think about it. This IMO is his cheap solution to bringing her back because she more than likely was killed by that gun. Thus, using a Deus ex machina styled ending to fix everything.

If I'm wrong about this, I'll be quick to admit it when it's all said and done, but I'm pretty sure I won't be. Ian is known for this kind of cheap shock value.

Hopefully he won't stoop to something this low.

Only time will tell sadly.

[PuffinGrandeur]

Okay, first off: He restarts because he already knows Sonic will beat the Death Egg II. That's the entire point of this arc: if he doesn't change something from the very beginning, he knows that Sonic will win. So he's going to the past and CHANGING the past to be more favorable to his chances. It is a 'flashback' in one sense, but it's not the story moving back in time, EVERYTHING is. This is Eggman going back to change the past and reality, not a distraction. But how is this supposed to be a quick fix? When we go back to the present, if the story is unrelated like you say, then Sally's still dead anyway. Where's the deus ex?
And it's hardly a quick fix, either. A quick fix is writing Sally as not getting shot, or having NICOLE be smashed in the next page. These are very easy outs: instead, we've got a major arc (which ANYBODY can see was not made simply as an 'out' for killing Sally, but is a culmination of the plot for the last year)going back and possibly making huge changes to canon, inserting two of Sonic's most important stories into canon with a celebration of the 20th Anniversary. That's a HELL of a lot of work for a supposed easy out.

[LaserX5]

Well, of course he's not going to make it too easy to fix. That'd be way too obvious.

Ian IMO is making us believe Genesis is a continuation of the previous issue, when in reality, I think it's a distraction from the fact he couldn't find a better way to remedy Sally's fate without the fans catching on and then taking heat from them.

Plus, it's Sonic's 20th anniversary. What better way to camouflage your true intentions than by having a story celebrating its nostalgic days?

How do you know Sonic would've defeated the Death Egg II anyhow? That machine's quite a beast. Also, he was fighting a gigantic Silver Sonic as well. Not to mention Eggman could have easily vaporized New Mobotropolis with a single shot.

But anyway, where's the Deus Ex machina I'm referring to? Why, the Genesis arc of course, when Eggman made everything go back to the beginning. Bear in mind, this is just what I think will happen. I'm not saying it will for sure, but with the way the story is going, it's sure looking like it to me.

Let's take into consideration the fact that Sally is alive now in the beginning timeline, with no apparent injuries of the 225 attack. Now then, since they are in the past, or at least it looks that way, suppose future incidents of the Genesis new arc result in Sally never getting shot at all once the timeline is restored. Would you not call that Deus ex machina styled fix?

I certainly would.

But again, this is just speculation on my part. It would be folly on my part to say this will happen and then guarantee it. However, you have to admit Sally looking like she got shot, and then Eggman using his device to turn events back to the beginning are too coincidental to not be looked upon with suspicion.

And, as I posted earlier. If I'm completely mistaken about this, I will admit it immediately. Perhaps it will be as one poster said on here, that it will Nicole who ends up dead instead of Sally.

To be honest, I actually hope I am mistaken about this. I certainly would hate to think Ian actually did indeed go through with something this cheap when it's all said and done, making us all stew in our juices for nothing.

[PuffinGrandeur]

How do you know Sonic would've defeated the Death Egg II anyhow? That machine's quite a beast. Also, he was fighting a gigantic Silver Sonic as well.

Because he always wins. No matter what the situation, no matter how close the doc gets, Sonic finds a way to win. Eggman himself acknowledged this during the Iron Dominion arc and several times in 225 itself (seriously READ THE THING.) He stated Sonic as an unknowable Chaos Factor due to all his experience with Power Rings and the Chaos Emeralds.

Not to mention Eggman could have easily vaporized New Mobotropolis with a single shot.

One shot of what? Seriously, New Mobotropolis was not vaporized, and the Death Egg never had a city-destroying gun. What he fired was the white reality-shifting blast commonly seen in comic books, a huge iconic image from the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The same white reality-shifting erasey bit that erased Sonic, INSIDE THE DEATH EGG, and everyone else. I don't know how you can't see it. This "distraction from a corner" bit is so dumb: if he really didn't have an out for Sally dying, HE WOULDN'T HAVE WRITTEN SALLY DYING. Sonic: Genesis is way too big to be a mere excuse for such a pathetically little detail.

But really, I'm glad this post was made, because now that you think Genesis will change whether Sally lives or dies (which would not be deus ex machina) that proves you don't really believe it's a sidetrack distraction arc. You've directly said it's majorly affecting the story and what happens right now with Sally (can't be a sidetrack and a deus ex at once.) I don't even care about the other dumb stuff said, this is enough. THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

[LaserX5]

Because he always wins. No matter what the situation, no matter how close the doc gets, Sonic finds a way to win. Eggman himself acknowledged this during the Iron Dominion arc and several times in 225 itself (seriously READ THE THING.) He stated Sonic as an unknowable Chaos Factor due to all his experience with Power Rings and the Chaos Emeralds.

Even so, who's to say Eggman couldn't have taken Sonic out had he actually tried?

Just because a hero's owned a villain in the past doesn't necessarily guarantee he will again the next time.

Of course, I know deep down he would win anyway because it wouldn't be a fitting end to a series if he didn't. Still, I'd like to see drama that shows maybe he won't this time.

One shot of what? Seriously, New Mobotropolis was not vaporized, and the Death Egg never had a city-destroying gun. What he fired was the white reality-shifting blast commonly seen in comic books, a huge iconic image from the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The same white reality-shifting erasey bit that erased Sonic, INSIDE THE DEATH EGG, and everyone else. I don't know how you can't see it. This "distraction from a corner" bit is so dumb: if he really didn't have an out for Sally dying, HE WOULDN'T HAVE WRITTEN SALLY DYING. Sonic: Genesis is way too big to be a mere excuse for such a pathetically little detail.

One shot of what... LOL You seriously crack me up.

Why do you think it's called a Death Egg in the first place?

But really, I'm glad this post was made, because now that you think Genesis will change whether Sally lives or dies (which would not be deus ex machina) that proves you don't really believe it's a sidetrack distraction arc. You've directly said it's majorly affecting the story and what happens right now with Sally (can't be a sidetrack and a deus ex at once.) I don't even care about the other dumb stuff said, this is enough. THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

And it's that statement right there that proves you're just trying to top me in this silly argument of ours instead of just having an honest discussion of different ideas of what could happen next in the Sonic comic.

If you don't like what I write on here, then do me a favor and stop replying to it. This is not a contest of who's the better debater.

[PuffinGrandeur]

The drama is "maybe he won't because of Genesis." Seriously, Eggman's acknowledged Sonic will always win, but that's because his current plan is something that will make it so Sonic SHOULDN'T always win. It's the end of a character arc for Eggman that started at 175, took major shifts at 177, 200, 211 and now seems to be apexing at 225. Eggman has it in his head that Sonic is LITERALLY impossible to beat at this point, so he's figured out a loophole in the alteration of time and reality itself.

The original Death Egg had a giant roboticizer and it could deploy Badniks. It didn't have any giant nanite city-destroying lasers. The SegaSonic Death Egg was able to reactivate a volcano and deployed Egg Robos, but it didn't show off any giant nanite-city destroying lasers. The Fleetway Death Egg actually DID have lasers, but not on a giant nanite-city destroying level. If you want New Mobotropolis to be vaporized in one shot, you've got to have a weapon to do it, and the Death Egg never showed off that vaporizing cities is what it did.

As for the discussion at hand, it's not necessarily on proving wrong as getting to the point instead of being sidetracked: the point here was "Uh no, this is definitely a sidetrack arc, Puffin." Everything else was an extension of that.

[LaserX5]

The drama is "maybe he won't because of Genesis." Seriously, Eggman's acknowledged Sonic will always win, but that's because his current plan is something that will make it so Sonic SHOULDN'T always win. It's the end of a character arc for Eggman that started at 175, took major shifts at 177, 200, 211 and now seems to be apexing at 225. Eggman has it in his head that Sonic is LITERALLY impossible to beat at this point, so he's figured out a loophole in the alteration of time and reality itself.

The original Death Egg had a giant roboticizer and it could deploy Badniks. It didn't have any giant nanite city-destroying lasers. The SegaSonic Death Egg was able to reactivate a volcano and deployed Egg Robos, but it didn't show off any giant nanite-city destroying lasers. The Fleetway Death Egg actually DID have lasers, but not on a giant nanite-city destroying level. If you want New Mobotropolis to be vaporized in one shot, you've got to have a weapon to do it, and the Death Egg never showed off that vaporizing cities is what it did.

I gotta ask you something. Are you that big of an Archie Sonic reader that you seem to know every minuet detail about it?

Where do you get all of your research on this stuff anyway?

You seem to have an answer for everything I write on here.

As for the discussion at hand, it's not necessarily on proving wrong as getting to the point instead of being sidetracked: the point here was "Uh no, this is definitely a sidetrack arc, Puffin." Everything else was an extension of that.

I was just stating my opinion on here. Sheesh. Is it so wrong that I share what I think might be going within the comic? This is a Sonic Satam fan forum after all.

Secondly, I wasn't trying to imply you were wrong in your thinking when I wrote that, just basically saying I disagreed with your conclusion about the Genesis arc. That's all. We obviously have different viewpoints about this comic issue, which is fine with me. I don't mind disagreements at all as long as it's done cordially.

Anyway, why are you posting again anyhow? I thought you said goodnight awhile ago?

[Juice16]

Well I just got done reading the first part of Genesis. What stood out in this issue was not the actual story, but the Sonic Grams on the last page which basically all concerned Sally's so-called death in the prev. issue. Some of them were expressing disappointment and betrayal to the comic if the death was for real, and even one person who wrote in said they would no longer support the comic if Sally was dead.

If Ian kept Sally dead(which would be a bad idea in my opinion), then the letters help give us an idea of what would happen to much of the comics' support in the coming future.

So I think Sally will live based on this evidence and the following:

Spoiler

Sally did appear in this issue & will appear throughout the Genesis Arc, and in this one she played a bigger role than I originally expected.

BTW Whoever responds to those Sonic Grams letters really does not take things seriously during big conflicts such as Sally's Death. The responses seemed to treat this conflict as if it were a joke. Looking at these letters, I don't think anybody is joking around...

[henryiii]

Well I just got done reading the first part of Genesis. What stood out in this issue was not the actual story, but the Sonic Grams on the last page which basically all concerned Sally's so-called death in the prev. issue. Some of them were expressing disappointment and betrayal to the comic if the death was for real, and even one person who wrote in said they would no longer support the comic if Sally was dead.

If Ian kept Sally dead(which would be a bad idea in my opinion), then the letters help give us an idea of what would happen to much of the comics' support in the coming future.

So I think Sally will live based on this evidence and the following:

Spoiler

Sally did appear in this issue & will appear throughout the Genesis Arc, and in this one she played a bigger role than I originally expected.

BTW Whoever responds to those Sonic Grams letters really does not take things seriously during big conflicts such as Sally's Death. The responses seemed to treat this conflict as if it were a joke. Looking at these letters, I don't think anybody is joking around...

This apathy for the older fans is one of the things that pisses me off most about the comic and I know just one day it will be their
undoing.