82 replies to this topic

[DLTN]

I actually liked Sonic Chronicles lol, but that was a different kind of game to the rest of the franchise. Bioware... doing a platformer, imagine lol

[LaserX5]

So like, the Sonic X comic ended two years ago, I don''t see why we're acting like SEGA is forcing Archie to shove it down our throats. The most mention it gets nowadays is in Off Panel.

I don't think though it's a coincidence after Sega made Ian the new writer of the comic, Sonic began to act like his Sonic X counterpart, an arrogant jerk who likes to trash talk Eggman when fighting him. Also, I think even Amy Rose began to act more like that obsessed fan girl as well.

Yes, I'm aware of the fact Sonic from Satam did some of that as well. The difference was, he seemed to show more heart and anger when his comrades were in trouble. Plus, if you want a real contrast in Sonic's personality when things went wrong, compare #50 to the current ones, and you tell me Sonic is like that nowadays. No way!

[PuffinGrandeur]

I don't think though it's a coincidence after Sega made Ian the new writer of the comic, Sonic began to act like his Sonic X counterpart, an arrogant jerk who likes to trash talk Eggman when fighting him. Also, I think even Amy Rose began to act more like that obsessed fan girl as well.

You mean, the way he's acted since day one? Sonic certainly acts different now when things go wrong as seen in the Eggman Empire arc, but not THAT different. He still gets angry and stubborn easily, he still handles loss somewhat poorly, but he also still cares more about others than himself and he also still tries to do right by anybody, but especially those close to him. He still makes fun of people he doesn't like, he still wears his heart on his sleeve, he still has trouble listening to commands... there's not really much of a difference, even if you account for the wonderfully ambiguous "heart factor." Heck, if anything, he's gotten nicer over the years.

Comparing Amy to the past appearances is hard, considering it wasn't until the modern run that she started doing ANYTHING AT ALL.

[SEGAMew]

Sonic puts himself below others even more than in the past. He would let Tails pummel him if Tails presented a good reason, he would take a blow for Scourge even though Scourge would never do the same, and he rescued Eggman when the Iron Queen and Snively, he even felt sorry for Eggman after he cracked him in #200.

After thinking Robotnik died in #21, he walked away with Tails joking around and such.
After Robotnik died in #50, Sonic was more concerned with how boring things will be.

Sorry I just don't see how current Sonic is more of an asshole under Ian.

[SpartokBlokk]

I don't see Sonic as being more of a jerk now, but I do feel the somewhat happy go lucky attitude is a bit jarring in the face of all the horrible stuff guys like Eggman have been established as doing. Granted, cockiness in the defiance of bad guys has and always will be a major part of him, but it seems a bit more like there's not even that tiny bit of concern for the dangers posed by an opponnent. And while I don't feel it out of character for him to feel remorse or pity for doing something like driving Eggbelly nutso, it seems kinda weird that he'd think of it as 'going too far' considering the genuinely terrible things he's done both directly to Sonic and friends and to his own world. This is, after all, a guy who succeeded in basically killing his mobius and turning it into a lifeless robotic wasteland world.

However I don't see any of the changes as having anything in common in Sonic X, and unless something drastic happened we really haven't had anything involving Sonic X shoved down our throats in the main Sonic comic (granted Cream shows up in Sonic Universe, but that's its own thing at the moment). I don't agree with a lot of the things done in the comic now, but I don't see a lot of the comparisons being brought up as all that accurate. We've yet to see Eggman trying his hand at luchadore style wrestling, for one...

[LaserX5]

Sonic puts himself below others even more than in the past. He would let Tails pummel him if Tails presented a good reason, he would take a blow for Scourge even though Scourge would never do the same, and he rescued Eggman when the Iron Queen and Snively, he even felt sorry for Eggman after he cracked him in #200.

After thinking Robotnik died in #21, he walked away with Tails joking around and such.
After Robotnik died in #50, Sonic was more concerned with how boring things will be.

Sorry I just don't see how current Sonic is more of an asshole under Ian.

Well, one example I know for sure in Sonic's attitude was when he battled Eggman in #200 compared to Julian in #50.

Sonic in 200 was like when he entered the room, all smug like, "Well, here I am, Eggman, come and get me, if you can."

In End Game, he said to Robotnik after he thought he lost everything, "You better run, Robo-butt, because there won't be much left when I'm done with you!"

I don't know about you, but hearing Sonic say that was just such a spine tingler. That was the Sonic I so miss from the Satam days. Yea, he was arrogant alot, but when you hurt his friends and loved ones, he would make you pay with everything he had.

Sonic in the comics today hasn't even come close to saying anything that epic.

[PuffinGrandeur]

Uh, Sonic 50 and Sonic 200 are completely different situations for the little hedgehog. It'd be much more fair to compare Endgame with the Eggman Empire arc in terms of Sonic losing his cool and being less than smug with the doctor (and even that's not really 1:1.) Also "HOW'S THAT FOR MY LIMIT" is pretty dang good as an 'epic' line, especially considering what he'd just done.

[LaserX5]

Uh, Sonic 50 and Sonic 200 are completely different situations for the little hedgehog. It'd be much more fair to compare Endgame with the Eggman Empire arc in terms of Sonic losing his cool and being less than smug with the doctor (and even that's not really 1:1.) Also "HOW'S THAT FOR MY LIMIT" is pretty dang good as an 'epic' line, especially considering what he'd just done.

Ok, point taken.

After reviewing #175-176 again, it is a better issue arc to compare Sonic's attitude from the those times. And, yes, that line was pretty good I'll admit.

Still, I find #50 better in terms of epic lines and battle.

Sonic in #50 looked like he was literally ready to kill Robotnik after it appeared his homeland and friends were gone. In #175 however, I still found him a bit more on the smug and taunting side. Not that he wasn't angry for everything gone.

But, that's just my opinion.

[SpartokBlokk]

What I didn't get about that one though, was why was it everyone involved treated that fight like it was Sonic's very own fight, and his alone? What about Knuckles' stake in finishing off Eggman? While Sonic was lost in space, Knuckles was back on Mobius fighting against Eggman directly. When he was Enerjak, HE was the reason Eggman no longer had an army to battle with. He stayed behind to fight off the Dark Egg Legion while Sonic was off battling Scourge. Eggman was responsible for destroying his home and massacaring his people, so why'd he bow out like everyone else when they at long last had Eggbelly cornered?

[PuffinGrandeur]

The reason Sonic fought against Eggman alone wasn't because everybody stood back: the Dark Egg Legion had built up a blockade that only one person could get through without a long, exhaustive fight. Sonic may not be the only one with dibs on Eggman, but he's certainly the top, and so he was chosen to go in first. By the time the others got to the combat room, the fight was already over. Of course, this was all based on Dr. Eggman's plan (well, except for the fight ending in Sonic's favor.) The entire scenario was set up intentionally for the purpose of a mano-a-mano final showdown by the mad doctor, who's obviously shown preference for hating that hedgehog over the others throughout the entire series.

[SpartokBlokk]

That's just it though... Knuckles' response made little sense. The guy who pretty much slaughtered his people was cornered, and he still let Sonic have the fight. The whole thing felt like "Well, even though Robotnik massacred most of my people and decimated my home, I'm gonna let you have this fight because, gosh darned it, you SO earned it." He didn't even protest or point out that he had just as much a reason to take down Eggman by that point, if not more, he just cheerfully stood aside and let Sonic have that one last brawl. Hell, Espio had just as much reason to take on Eggman after the crap he was put through with Valdez, and he could have easily cloaked himself to go back through the bottleneck.

[PuffinGrandeur]

Knuckles stopped thinking of a vendetta against Eggman as his main goal ever since Enerjak Returns, and it should be noted that pretty much EVERYBODY has a good reason for a personal vendetta against the mad doctor, not just Espio. But he doesn't have to angst over it every page, especially since he'd already spent several of his appearances beforehand doing so. It was a single line, telling Sonic to go beat the big bad doctor. I think you may be blowing this out of proportion.

Also Espio had clearly heard the whole thing was set up specifically for Sonic beforehand anyway. It wasn't a choice of who was going, but how everybody else was following, so...

[SpartokBlokk]

If I were overreacting, I'd be expressing an intense hatred for the whole thing and tear into it without even a veneer of rationality, and pretty much stating Ian Flynn as being the Sonic Fandom's equivelent of the Devil. I do not hate how things turned out, I just find the set up, presentation and reasoning to be unsatisfactory and faulty. A final showdown between Sonic and Eggman resulting in Eggman cracking, orchestrated by Snively to put the Iron Queen in power? Fine, its solid. But a wall of scrap metal being the only thing seperating Sonic's friends from joining, when at least four of them can tear through reinforced steel with little problem? That's just plain old contrived. And yes, everyone did have a reason to hate Robotnik, and Knuckles did suffer emotional turmoil after Enerjak Reborn, but I don't think that alone would just totally evaporate a need to exact vengeance upon the guy who murdered most of his people. There should have been at least just a tad more emotional investment in the whole thing instead of just "Leave some for us, buddy."

[Mithrandir]

As a tween back in 97-98, I remember really falling in love with the comic around the time the issues got to the #30's (I really, REALLY missed SatAM after it ended, I was thrilled to have a new source for the characters), and even after Robotnik Prime was offed after Endgame, I ended up getting really into the Knuckles series, which was brilliant. For a long while, I held out hope for the series, but eventually ended my subscription as I got a little older.

Years later, I found old issues and stuff and wound up reading just about every Sonic related comic from the beginning, to the Knuckles series, other mini-series, specials, etc., up to around #175. While a lot of the stuff after #125 fell flat for me (too much angsty teen drama stuff, not enough compelling adventures and hero/villain interactions), I at least still felt like the series had a sense of AMBITION around it.

Later, though, I lost that sense. The expansive, awesome Knuckles universe was destroyed. The sprawling world of Mobius was shrunk to basically one city where everything happens. The characters were streamlined...while some of them were written out to a fault before, again, I at least felt like the writers were trying to do something compelling with them, even if they didn't always do an ideal job.

So, really, that's what I miss the most: even if the series missed or fell short at times, I miss feeling like they were really being ambitious with the characters, ambitious with Mobius as a world with a mythology to develop, ambitious with some of the story arcs...yes, sometimes if you get too ambitious it becomes much easier to fail, but at least the effort is there.

I just don't feel like it's there anymore, sadly. I'm sure some of that is me growing up, but, again, I've read the old and new stuff within the past couple of years, and that's just the feeling I got.

EDIT: I want to add, reading some folks talking earlier about making a more "mature/darker/etc." version of the series, I don't necessarily agree. I like smart, intelligent writing, but I'm kind of burned out on stuff going all dark and gritty for the sake of it. Part of what I like in SatAM is the balance of the overwhelming dread of Robotropolis with the serenity and light-heartedness of Knothole.

Also, just my opinion, but I feel like in the quest to make things more "realistic", a lot of writers have lost realism by making everything all "dark/mature" and whatnot. Life isn't a whole bunch of happy endings, sure, but it's not a litany of woe, either. I prefer a story that can balance the two.

[LaserX5]

I understand your feelings on this.

The comic just doesn't have that epicness, or at least solid read it used to have.

I believe it began to lose its luster immediately after Julian Robotnik was killed. The comic just didn't have that same super villain feel to to it afterward. Yea, Snively is pretty good, but he's no Robotnik. Not to mention him being replaced by Eggman was a really stupid idea.

Also, the nonsense of Sonic and Sally breaking up, the roboticization being reversed halfway into the comic, the deus ex machina style ending of #176, and the comic becoming more Sonic X styled really put a frown on my face. This is a slap in the face to what brilliant writers like Ben Hurst tried to make back with the cartoon.

Anyway, as for the dark, mature stuff, I actually do prefer it over the light hearted, but I do agree it needs balance. I don't want it to be so dark, the audience can't even enjoy the tender, sweet moments when they come. But at the same time, the audience needs to understand this is a series about a world at war, where 2 sides are fighting for the rights to control Mobius, and that war does come with a heavy price, such as the loss of a beloved comrade.

This is what the comic is trying to get away from more and more, and for that reason, I have lost just about all interest in it because it's trying to appease kids more than the older readers. Kid friendly material just does not work in Satam. Never has, never will, and the fact Sega is forcing this into the comic because they can is just downright disgusting.

[Mithrandir]

I hear you; there's a big reason why, even as an adult, I've gravitated towards a series like Avatar: The Last Airbender. It takes the "world at war" concept and treats it seriously, showing you that war has real micro and macro consequences, yet pulls it off without drowning you in dread and angst. Earlier Disney movies managed to walk the line between G-rated family material and genuine suspense, scares, and danger, as did 80's-era Don Bluth animated movies.

The question of "when did the comic begin to slip" really is an interesting one. I look back on the post-Endgame days upset with Robotnik being gone, but not feeling like anything was ruined, either. I guess we still got to see Robotnik in action with the Tales of the Great War storylines and I also let myself get distracted with the awesome-ness that was the Knuckles series, so any slipping in the main stories didn't bother me too much. Think I was also glad to see Naugus get to become a comic character, so seeing a SatAM character just made me happy.

I point more to when "teen-angsty" stuff took over the proceedings, including "the slap" issue (ugh), and the work to turn the comic world more into the world of the games, doing things like consolidating ALL THE GALAXY'S CHAOS EMERALDS into just a few of them. Just...why? Absolutely removed the sense of adventure and discovery, and turned completely to action.

Maybe that sums it up best. The Archie series used to feel more like an adventure series. Now it's an action series.

[PuffinGrandeur]

I actually felt that the current run injected a much NEEDED dosage of adventure into the series, alongside action. Chaos Emeralds being everywhere only made them feel less special or mystical, and politics or love squabbles often overrode any sense of adventure the book might have tried to keep. The games are actually the best depiction of a Sonic the Hedgehog that's governed by adventure instead of action, with every notable game featuring entirely new places and casts to explore with 'combat' relegated to either running through or jumping on things.

Also saying kid-friendly doesn't work with SataM is funny. Really, really funny.

[LaserX5]

The question of "when did the comic begin to slip" really is an interesting one. I look back on the post-Endgame days upset with Robotnik being gone, but not feeling like anything was ruined, either. I guess we still got to see Robotnik in action with the Tales of the Great War storylines and I also let myself get distracted with the awesome-ness that was the Knuckles series, so any slipping in the main stories didn't bother me too much. Think I was also glad to see Naugus get to become a comic character, so seeing a SatAM character just made me happy.

The comic began to slip because Sega began to become more of a dictator on how it was run as time went by. Instead of letting it be, they had to throw their 2 cents in, saying what can and cannot be in it. Thus, why the comic is watered down and mostly a joke today.

I point more to when "teen-angsty" stuff took over the proceedings, including "the slap" issue (ugh), and the work to turn the comic world more into the world of the games, doing things like consolidating ALL THE GALAXY'S CHAOS EMERALDS into just a few of them. Just...why? Absolutely removed the sense of adventure and discovery, and turned completely to action.

Maybe that sums it up best. The Archie series used to feel more like an adventure series. Now it's an action series.

I think you summed it up the best. But to me, it's much worse than that. Instead of having story driven issues with substance and value, we have ones of just Sonic beating up villains without being well written or the puzzle being put together methodically like a big jigsaw puzzle. Don't get me wrong, I love action scenes, the explosions, the punches, etc, but there's got to be a well written story behind it. Not just, "Ok, Sonic, Eggman just showed, go punch his lights out."

But to be honest, I shouldn't be surprised by all of this. This is exactly what the Sonic X show was like. Alot of battles with very little story to go on. Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. That's why I loved Satam, because it put the a well written plot ahead of the action scenes.

I actually felt that the current run injected a much NEEDED dosage of adventure into the series, alongside action. Chaos Emeralds being everywhere only made them feel less special or mystical, and politics or love squabbles often overrode any sense of adventure the book might have tried to keep. The games are actually the best depiction of a Sonic the Hedgehog that's governed by adventure instead of action, with every notable game featuring entirely new places and casts to explore with 'combat' relegated to either running through or jumping on things.

Couldn't have said it better about the Chaos Emeralds. Even though I love the idea of Sonic being super, the Chaos Emeralds do have to have drawbacks, as well the story they're in need to be written properly to work. It can't be, "All right, I'm invincible now. I can kick any villain's butt I want."

The thing is though, what drawback should their be if they're used? Maybe a dramatic increase in pressure they put on the body, risking a chance to be killed while using them? I haven't been able to find the right drawback for this yet.

Also saying kid-friendly doesn't work with SatAM is funny. Really, really funny.

If you really think it works, then why don't you watch those Antoine shorts again. They were for the most part terrible, and a waste of animation. Yea, a couple of em were kinda decent and a bit funny, but some like Robecca I find very stupid and distasteful.

Yea, I know technically Satam was a kid's show, but it wasn't exactly a show known for it's cute moments, zaniness and bring sickening sweet. To me, it was much more complex than that.

It took the Sonic concept and gave it a feel I never saw before. No more was it about a hedgehog running around, saving cute little animals. This was about a world with a dark atmosphere, with an evil dictator in control of the planet, and alot more at stake.

This show had true emotion, realistic scenarios when it came to war for the most part, and heartbreaking moments. Who could forget scenes like Sonic being forced to leave his Uncle behind, Bunnie getting the chance to be unroboticized, only to have it backfire, and then Sally not even getting an hour to be with her Dad after finding him due to being in the Void too long? It was moments like these that really drew you into this Sonic series.

That's why I said kid friendly doesn't work in Satam, because it was stuff like this that was indeed very powerful and moving. Yea, there was kid friendly stuff in the show, but did it have as much impact as the dark and complex stuff? Not even close. I really applaud Ben Hurst for all he did to make this show a true classic. His thought process regarding this show was just inspiring and amazing.

To me, the term kid friendly is a dirty word when it comes to animated shows today. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against shows that teach children how to be nice, work with others and learn how to contribute to society. But when it comes to the fact they water down stuff like tragedy, heartbreak, and even letting people show true emotion, I find it downright disgusting.

It'd be like if a Terminator, Batman or even Star Wars Movie(who played a part in the inspiration of the Sonic Satam show) was filmed and produced by the Care Bears studio company. Can you imagine how stupid and lame it would be?

I really don't think it's a coincidence that a show like BTAS was one of the best animated shows of all time. It was a show kids watched, yet they loved it. They didn't water it down, in spite of the fact it had very dark and tragic moments.

[PuffinGrandeur]

Couldn't have said it better about the Chaos Emeralds. Even though I love the idea of Sonic being super, the Chaos Emeralds do have to have drawbacks, as well as written properly to work. It can't be, "All right, I'm invincible now. I can kick any villain's butt I want."

The thing is though, what drawback should their be if they're used? Maybe a dramatic increase in pressure they put on the body, risking a chance to be killed while using them? I haven't been able to find the right drawback for this yet.

They don't need a drawback. They're the Chaos Emeralds, the most powerful sought after item in the entire franchise. They're allowed to be pretty much the most powerful thing there is: but that's only because they're also somewhat RARE, and only get in-story usage against things that don't instantly lose by virtue of a Super being present. The Chaos Emeralds are an integral part of the franchise mythos, but if you make them as common as corn pellets they're just another stupid Maguffin in a series already filled with other stupid Maguffins.

I really don't think it's a coincidence that a show like BTAS was one of the best animated shows of all time. It was a show kids watched, yet they loved it. They didn't water it down, in spite of the fact it had very dark and tragic moments.

SataM wasn't as 'dark' as BTAS, and STAS was consistently better than BTAS anyhow. Also, I've Got a Batman In My Basement. Sonic as a character by himself pretty much disproves SataM as all that dark, really, without even getting into Antoine.

[LaserX5]

They don't need a drawback. They're the Chaos Emeralds, the most powerful sought after item in the entire franchise. They're allowed to be pretty much the most powerful thing there is: but that's only because they're also somewhat RARE, and only get in-story usage against things that don't instantly lose by virtue of a Super being present. The Chaos Emeralds are an integral part of the franchise mythos, but if you make them as common as corn pellets they're just another stupid Maguffin in a series already filled with other stupid Maguffins.

Ok, I'll agree with the fact they should be rare items in the Franchise. I just don't like the idea of them being used to defeat a villain so easily. It should be a hard fought battle IMO.

SataM wasn't as 'dark' as BTAS, and STAS was consistently better than BTAS anyhow. Also, I've Got a Batman In My Basement. Sonic as a character by himself pretty much disproves SataM as all that dark, really, without even getting into Antoine.

You're right. Satam wasn't as dark as BTAS, or even STAS for that matter. I was just using that to make a point that even kids can enjoy stuff like that without having it watered down. And yes, I'll admit Sonic was kinda zany and goofy at times like in the AOSTH show. But at least he did show heart and emotion from time to time, which I found very refreshing.

Anyway, I never meant to imply the show was so dark, that it was all doom and gloom. I just meant the series had very dark and sad moments during its run. You could even say t was because of moments like that, Satam had a certain epicness to it. It's for that reason why I prefer the Satam cartoon over than comic anyday.