58 replies to this topic

[henryiii]

uhh.. It makes me sick and depressed reading that.

I hate, hate, hate how Ian wants to reference SATAM and in a way make the comic still be a continuation of SATAM, but yet doesn't want to respect the tone or characters or themes or whatever else of the show and the comic before him.

Yep, unfortunately so.

But, I'm not surprised. He did write the Sonic X comic, so now he's trying to put a Sonic X spin in the comic, which leaves a bitter aftertaste.

I wish Ian would do us all a favor and go back to the way it was. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. The comic writers have burnt too many bridges now to be as epic as it was once was.

It just makes me wonder where the writer inside him that wrote Other M went.

Not that I like Other M of course, it's just the tonal differences are so vast.

[furrykef]

It wouldn't really be in Ian's power to go back to the way it was even if he wanted to.

[MongooseLady19]

Yeah enough is enough I wish that they would just go back to the way it was but this is still a good comic.

[Wentos]

The Archie Sonic comic was never like SatAM.

It parroted the style of SatAM in a handful of issues before issue 50 (mostly the ones drawn by Art Mahwinney), but the comic was always a weird mishmash of Sonic media. Lest we forget those "Hey kids! Press buttons on your Sega Genesis controller to help Sonic grab the rings!" panels, or the repeat appearances of Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, and their Archie-original counterpart Crabmeat.

Not to mention Robotnik himself. For the vast majority of issues between 1 and 50, Robotnik looked like SatAM Robotnik, but acted like AoStH Robotnik. Going back and reading the comic, it's absolutely bizarre seeing SatAM's Robotnik sipping 10-W-40 oil with a straw and getting porcupine needles shoved up his ass.

Things only became more divorced from SatAM after issue 50. Robotnik got his Sonic Adventure redesign, and even more SegaSonic elements were introduced into the comic.

Ian hasn't changed a thing. The comic may a rely a little more on game material more than it did in the old days (emphasis on may), but the mix was always there. Let me just say this straight out, so that you all get the point: The Archie Sonic comic was never specifically meant to be a vehicle to continue SatAM, and it never will be.

BTW, love this arc. The Battlebird Armada is awesome.

[henryiii]

The Archie Sonic comic was never like SatAM.

It parroted the style of SatAM in a handful of issues before issue 50 (mostly the ones drawn by Art Mahwinney), but the comic was always a weird mishmash of Sonic media. Lest we forget those "Hey kids! Press buttons on your Sega Genesis controller to help Sonic grab the rings!" panels, or the repeat appearances of Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, and their Archie-original counterpart Crabmeat.

Not to mention Robotnik himself. For the vast majority of issues between 1 and 50, Robotnik looked like SatAM Robotnik, but acted like AoStH Robotnik. Going back and reading the comic, it's absolutely bizarre seeing SatAM's Robotnik sipping 10-W-40 oil with a straw and getting porcupine needles shoved up his ass.

Things only became more divorced from SatAM after issue 50. Robotnik got his Sonic Adventure redesign, and even more SegaSonic elements were introduced into the comic.

Ian hasn't changed a thing. The comic may a rely a little more on game material more than it did in the old days (emphasis on may), but the mix was always there. Let me just say this straight out, so that you all get the point: The Archie Sonic comic was never specifically meant to be a vehicle to continue SatAM, and it never will be.

BTW, love this arc. The Battlebird Armada is awesome.

Sigh..........why do Flynn fans always say that SATAM and Archie aren't related?

First :most of the early stuff pre-Endgame material was considered apocryphal as soon as the comics started taking it self more seriously(that includes Robotnik acting like an idiot) so none of that stuff should count in any argument.

Second: The Archie comic from day one was meant to be an advertisement for SATAM. Next is the Fact that Pender's himself said he wanted the comic to be and made the comic as a companion piece and in a way a continuation of SATAM and also you're alieanating more then half of the fanbase by saying the two don't go together, since to them IT IS THE SEQUEL TO SATAM and even if they don't think that, it's been to them something to appease them from no SATAM content.



Third: My main problem with Flynn isn't that there's game material being added. No my main problem is that Flynn doesn't want to take the comic seriously, which he does by having such a light hearted tone; with no real villain, tension, drama, character development etc. All which are a slap in the face at the legacy of SATAM. I don't really want the comic to do a one eighty and go straight back to the pure Satam, what I want is just something that is story worthy of the SATAM crown, which includes doing the above things and having a darker atmosphere and to continue Satam story in a golden way.

Fourth and finally: don't say this is just a kids comic. Please, us older fans have been the ones who have supported the book throughout its run and are the one's keeping it barely afloat, so it's not a kids comic, okay? And even if it weren't having it be one is no excuse for it to suck, since I can name over 1000 kids stories that have had the successful goal to be something great. Something which Flynn lacks.

[MongooseLady19]

Yeah and I'm just sick and tired of them using the new school game's.The new School game Suck compared to the old school geneniss can't spell it. And last time I checked crabmeat was a Sonic 1 Enemy. So it wasn't created by Archie Comics.

[henryiii]

I actually don't mind if they use character's like Shadow, Blaze or Silver. As long as there written intelligently and have a purpose in the comic overall plot and not just being used as a gimmick, am fine with them appering,


I think they actually have allot of potential as fine developed characters.

[Wentos]

First :most of the early stuff pre-Endgame material was considered apocryphal as soon as the comics started taking it self more seriously(that includes Robotnik acting like an idiot) so none of that stuff should count in any argument.

I've heard this argument used a lot, but it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. For one thing, many of the plot elements that were introduced in the silly issues remained plot relevant as time went on (Bunnie's origin, Tails' intelligence boost, Evil Sonic, the Cosmic Interstate, Robo-Robotnik, Car-Heem of Weet, etc).

For another, pre-Endgame, the silly issues outnumbered the serious issues by about 2-to-1, and the silly issues never really stopped until Endgame itself took place. Take a look at this page taken from issue 45, literally right before Endgame took place. Robotnik is still his silly, AoStH self. Endgame really took the comic in a direction it had never fully devoted itself to before, and by the time the transformation had taken place completely, most if not all of the SatAM elements were already gone, not the least of which being Robotnik himself.

Second: The Archie comic from day one was meant to be an advertisement for SATAM.

And SatAM itself was meant as an advertisement for the video games. It all feeds into itself. The Sonic franchise has always been a bizarre mishmash of media, and nowhere is that more apparent than in the comic itself. During its run, the comic has included references to SatAM, AoStH, the games, Sonic X, and the Sonic OVA. Add to that a lot of comic-original elements (many of which were introduced by Ken Penders), and you have a comic that has very little to do with SatAM.

you're alieanating more then half of the fanbase by saying the two don't go together, since to them IT IS THE SEQUEL TO SATAM and even if they don't think that, it's been to them something to appease them from no SATAM content.

Again, there is more to the Sonic franchise than just SatAM. SatAM was a great show, but I guarantee you that there are more people that have played Sonic games than there are people that have watched SatAM, especially now, 15-something years later. Flynn does include SatAM elements, both to respect that aspect of the comic's history, and because he enjoyed SatAM himself. But making SatAM his top priority just wouldn't make sense anymore. Especially considering that the comic hasn't looked anything like SatAM for a very long time, even before Ian started his run on the comic. Seriously, go read from issue 100 onwards and try to tell me that comic looks anything like SatAM.

No my main problem is that Flynn doesn't want to take the comic seriously, which he does by having such a light hearted tone; with no real villain, tension, drama, character development etc. All which are a slap in the face at the legacy of SATAM. I don't really want the comic to do a one eighty and go straight back to the pure Satam, what I want is just something that is story worthy of the SATAM crown, which includes doing the above things and having a darker atmosphere and to continue Satam story in a golden way.

I understand your opinion, but I don't agree with it. I enjoy Sonic most when there are both elements of comedy and elements of suspense. I can only take a blue anthropomorphic hedgehog with red sneakers so seriously. And really, how much dramatic tension could there ever be? We know for a fact that Sonic is going to win, and Robotnik is going to lose. It's not like Sega would ever let Archie do anything to break that up.

Fourth and finally: don't say this is just a kids comic. Please, us older fans have been the ones who have supported the book throughout its run and are the one's keeping it barely afloat, so it's not a kids comic, okay?

It was always a kid's comic. You just grew up. If you don't want to read a kid's comic, there are some great comics for adults out there. ArchieSonic has always been, and always will be a comic for all ages.

[MongooseLady19]

I'm just sick of all the hedgehogs there's too many hedgehogs in the games these's day's enough is enough I only want one hedgehog and that's Sonic (And maybe Amy as long as she leave's him alone).

[henryiii]

've heard this argument used a lot, but it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. For one thing, many of the plot elements that were introduced in the silly issues remained plot relevant as time went on (Bunnie's origin, Tails' intelligence boost, Evil Sonic, the Cosmic Interstate, Robo-Robotnik, Car-Heem of Weet, etc).

For another, pre-Endgame, the silly issues outnumbered the serious issues by about 2-to-1, and the silly issues never really stopped until Endgame itself took place. Take a look at this page taken from issue 45, literally right before Endgame took place. Robotnik is still his silly, AoStH self. Endgame really took the comic in a direction it had never fully devoted itself to before, and by the time the transformation had taken place completely, most if not all of the SatAM elements were already gone, not the least of which being Robotnik himself.

Evil sonic, Bunnie's orgin etc, you can all blame it on broad strokes. And if every thing from that time period was official, why don't we have things like Sally's interest in soaps or Sonic meeting Sally in his teens? the book did a bit of a reboot and so allot stuff from that time wasn't valid as soon as the book took on the SATAM tone fullly and completely.

Again, there is more to the Sonic franchise than just SatAM. SatAM was a great show, but I guarantee you that there are more people that have played Sonic games than there are people that have watched SatAM, especially now, 15-something years later.

uh huh, which is why most of the game base hates SATAM/Archie and that only the older SATAM/Archie fans are the only ones with the resources to buy and support the comic.

Flynn does include SatAM elements, both to respect that aspect of the comic's history, and because he enjoyed SatAM himself. But making SatAM his top priority just wouldn't make sense anymore. Especially considering that the comic hasn't looked anything like SatAM for a very long time, even before Ian started his run on the comic. Seriously, go read from issue 100 onwards and try to tell me that comic looks anything like SatAM.

SATAM is more then the freedom fighters hiding in knothole and fighting and hiding from Robotnik in Robotropolis. its a feeling and a tone that the comic once had and that Ian's ain't respecting.

It was always a kid's comic. You just grew up. If you don't want to read a kid's comic, there are some great comics for adults out there. ArchieSonic has always been, and always will be a comic for all ages.

Or maybe I want something I once liked to not be a dumbed down piece a crap anymore and for it to respect my intelligence again. I've already said this isn't a kids book, if it was why keep the freedom fighters at all and not just replace them with the game cast? thry don't care about Bunnie. Sally, Ant, etc, they want to see Amy, Blaze, Silver, Cream, etc. And having it still be a kids comic is still no reason to lower yourself and the rest of the small remaining fan base. Especially since the comic is gasping for sales.

I understand your opinion, but I don't agree with it. I enjoy Sonic most when there are both elements of comedy and elements of suspense. I can only Sonic is going to win, and Robotnik is going to lose. It's not like Sega would ever let Archie do anything to break that up.

I Find it ironic allot Flynn's fans say this considering Other-M the thing tHat got him big was dramatic, dark and everything else that his fans like him for today is not.

While you might not, I can guarantee that most of the fanbase would love something more dramatic and darker. Especially since the two most popular stories Endgame and the Knux's comics are just that.

[Wentos]

Evil sonic, Bunnie's orgin etc, you can all blame it on broad strokes.

Meaning that the silly stories were canon and non-canon at the same time? How convenient.

And if every thing from that time period was official, why don't we have things like Sally's interest in soaps or Sonic meeting Sally in his teens?

The Sonic comic often broke the fourth wall for the sake of a laugh in the old days. But who knows, maybe Sally still watches soap operas? Weirder things have happened.

As far as Sonic and Sally meeting after the coup, that happened in issue #0 of the limited miniseries, long before any kind of continuous narrative was conceived.

the book did a bit of a reboot and so allot stuff from that time wasn't valid as soon as the book took on the SATAM tone fullly and completely.

Like I said before, the book never took on the SatAM tone completely. Or did you completely ignore that page I posted from issue 45?

uh huh, which is why most of the game base hates SATAM/Archie

...what? No they don't.

and that only the older SATAM/Archie fans are the only ones with the resources to buy and support the comic.

...again, what? You're just pulling stuff out of your ass now.

SATAM is more then the freedom fighters hiding in knothole and fighting and hiding from Robotnik in Robotropolis. its a feeling and a tone that the comic once had and that Ian's ain't respecting.

Could your definition be any more nebulous? This doesn't mean anything either. This is you drawing imaginary lines in the sand.

To respect my intelligence again. I've already said this isn't a kids book, if it was why keep the freedom fighters at all and not just replace them with the game cast? thry don't care about Bunnie. Sally, Ant, etc, they want to see Amy, Blaze, Silver, Cream, etc. And having it still be a kids comic is still no reason to lower yourself and the rest of the small remaining fan base. Especially since the comic is gasping for sales.

The SatAM cast are there because Ian has much more creative freedom with them than he does with the SegaSonic characters. He could never let Sonic get married (short of an Elseworlds story), or die, or really change in any meaningful way. Remember, Sega considers the comic as free advertising first and foremost. If the game characters were to stray too far from their image from the games, the comic wouldn't serve that capacity anymore. As a result, Ian is severely limited in what he can do with the game characters. In contrast, he can do anything he wants with the non-game characters, since Sega doesn't care about them. They are a huge part of what makes the Archie comic so dynamic. If Ian was only limited to game characters, nothing of consequence would ever happen.

And like I said before, Ian keeps the SatAM cast around because he enjoyed SatAM, and wants to respect its fans and its legacy. Naturally there are loudmouths like yourself that will never be satisfied, but most Sonic fans are happy that the Freedom Fighters are still alive and relevant in the comic.

I Find it ironic allot Flynn's fans say this considering Other-M the thing tHat got him big was dramatic, dark and everything else that his fans like him for today is not.

I never read Other-M. I suspect it was lousy, considering Ian spent years revising his pitch before Archie finally accepted him as head writer.

While you might not, I can guarantee that most of the fanbase would love something more dramatic and darker.

After the clusterfuck that was Next-Gen Sonic, there was a HUGE amount of backlash against overly dramatic Sonic stories. Most fans are ready for something with a little levity. When Sonic gets too serious, it ceases to be drama and becomes self-parody.

[henryiii]

I'm curious why your trolling are forums again, since you don'r want to talk about anything else and the last time you were here ,you did just what you're doing now, which is getting into a fight with a buncha fans who dislike Ian's direction of the comic.

Meaning that the silly stories were canon and non-canon at the same time? How convenient.

broad strokes

Like I said before, the book never took on the SatAM tone completely. Or did you completely ignore that page I posted from issue 45?

It took on its tone as soon as Endgame started.

...what? No they don't.

Lol. you're kidding right or have you been living under a rock for the past decade?

Could your definition be any more nebulous? This doesn't mean anything either. This is you drawing imaginary lines in the sand.

SATAM has tone of mystery and seriousness. Which the comic had before Ian.

I never read Other-M. I suspect it was lousy, considering Ian spent years revising his pitch before Archie finally accepted him as head writer.

Funny, the very popular comic that got him popular enough that people wanted him writing for it seem to be gone and seem to be replaced by people who don't care for its contents.

After the clusterfuck that was Next-Gen Sonic, there was a HUGE amount of backlash against overly dramatic Sonic stories. Most fans are ready for something with a little levity. When Sonic gets too serious, it ceases to be drama and becomes self-parody.

which is why Other-M was such a massive hit because hit because it was so lighthearted...........oh wait, no it wasen't.

Maybe people on Bumble king don't, but I can tell you after browsing many fanfics, forums, fan art, etc. That most people DO WANT a darker, more serious, dramatic Sonic.

...again, what? You're just pulling stuff out of your ass now.

How many serialized kids comics have lasted 300 issues plus? None that how many. Because we the older fans have had the dough to keep up with it and the money to go back and collect all the issues to get the whole story.

I just got into the comic recently and you know much I had to spend to keep up? over 2000 bucks. You think a kid has that much money?and exspecially as the comic adds more and more continuity.l

[Wentos]

I'm curious why your trolling are forums again, since you don'r want to talk about anything else and the last time you were here ,you did just what you're doing now, which is getting into a fight with a buncha fans who dislike Ian's direction of the comic.

The Bumbleking Forums are nice enough, but they're too civil. I like to argue, and this is a great place to do it. If you don't want me here, just don't respond to my posts.

BTW, I'd gladly talk about any aspect of the comic if it came up in conversation, but all anyone does is use this forum to bitch about Ian. So guess what I spend my time talking about?

broad strokes

So pretty much exactly what I said? The comic's early canon isn't nearly as hazy as you make it out to be. The only reason you don't want it to be set in stone is because the characters don't act at all like their SatAM counterparts. "I don't like it" does not mean "It is not canon". For instance, I consider issue 134 to be the worst point in the comic's history, but I don't pretend it didn't happen. I can't just pick and choose what is canon based on my preferences.

It took on its tone as soon as Endgame started.

So the era in which Robotnik was replaced with Eggman, Sonic's design was revamped, and the Freedom Fighters went to high school for whatever reason, is the same in tone as SatAM? You and I have vastly different views on what constitutes SatAM.

Or maybe you're talking about Endgame all by itself. In which case the comic had the tone of SatAM... for four issues. Damn. The comic burnt itself out really quick, didn't it?

Lol. you're kidding right or have you been living under a rock for the past decade?

Every SegaSonic fan I know loves SatAM. I don't see how they're mutually exclusive.

SATAM has tone of mystery and seriousness. Which the comic had before Ian.

SatAM had a lot of humor too. Or maybe you missed the parts where Sonic taunted Swatbots, called Robotnik "Buttnik", and ripped on Antoine at pretty much every opportunity? SatAM really wasn't as serious as you seem to think it was.

Funny, the very popular comic that got him popular enough that people wanted him writing for it seem to be gone and seem to be replaced by people who don't care for its contents.

Wow, Ian was a popular fanfic writer? I totally give a shit!

Honestly, who cares? What you do as an amateur and what you do as a paid professional have nothing to do with each other. In Japan, many manga artists get their start drawing hentai. That doesn't mean that their professional work features pornography, it's just something they worked on to get their foot in the door.

which is why Other-M was such a massive hit because hit because it was so lighthearted...........oh wait, no it wasen't.

Fanfiction? A hit? HA! No one gives a shit about fanfiction. It's almost always melodramatic garbage that has nothing to do with the original source material in terms of tone and content. Fanfiction is called fanfiction for a reason. It's made by fans, not professionals.

Maybe people on Bumble king don't, but I can tell you after browsing many fanfics, forums, fan art, etc. That most people DO WANT a darker, more serious, dramatic Sonic.

I'm sure your internet hangouts have dozens of people that want super-serious Sonic stories. But they do not represent the majority. They are a very loud minority, nothing more.

How many serialized kids comics have lasted 300 issues plus? None that how many.

Sonic hasn't lasted 300 issues. It's barely over 200. But to answer your question:

Archie
Uncle Scrooge
Walt Disney's Comics & Stories
Donald Duck and Friends

There are many more that have lasted over 200 issues.

I just got into the comic recently and you know much I had to spend to keep up? over 2000 bucks. You think a kid has that much money?and exspecially as the comic adds more and more continuity.l

You just got into the comic recently? Then why are you pining for the "good old days" like you've been reading since the beginning? I've been reading since issue 5 back in 1993. I have way more nerd cred than you.

You're smalltime kid.

[henryiii]

[quote]satAM had a lot of humor too. Or maybe you missed the parts where Sonic taunted Swatbots, called Robotnik "Buttnik", and ripped on Antoine at pretty much every opportunity? SatAM really wasn't as serious as you seem to think it was.
/quote]
Yes it had humor, but it took itself seriously and its characters, unlike Flynn's insulting happy flippant attitude. Did you miss the part about everyone losing their family and loved loves thorough a horrifying ordeal and just having to survive?

There's no conflict in Ian's verse and no reason to get anyone down.

[quote]Every SegaSonic fan I know loves SatAM. I don't see how they're mutually exclusive.
/quote]
Wentos, I really wonder if you really been in the fandom to know the simple fact that epretty much most of the fanbase hates SATAM/Archie with a burning passion., Jesus just go Sonic Staduim or Sega's forum to get a good idea.
[quote]Sonic hasn't lasted 300 issues. It's barely over 200. But to answer your question:

Archie
Uncle Scrooge
Walt Disney's Comics & Stories
Donald Duck and Friends

There are many more that have lasted over 200 issues.
/quote]
And how may of those have had an ongoing story?
[quote]Wow, Ian was a popular fanfic writer? I totally give a shit!

Honestly, who cares? What you do as an amateur and what you do as a paid professional have nothing to do with each other. In Japan, many manga artists get their start drawing hentai. That doesn't mean that their professional work features pornography, it's just something they worked on to get their foot in the do/quote]
Popular enough to get several interviews on several sites. Something telling about his popularity and what most fans want out of Sonic
[quote]You just got into the comic recently? Then why are you pining for the "good old days" like you've been reading since the beginning? I've been reading since issue 5 back in 1993. I have way more nerd cred than yo/quote]
A year and a half actually. I have used my money to buy every comic from 0 to 207 including every special,Knux and Sonic X comic and have thoroughly immersed myself in the western Sonic fandom to the point where it seems like an old friend. So no am no small kid Wentos.
[quote]I'm sure your internet hangouts have dozens of people that want super-serious Sonic stories. But they do not represent the majority. They are a very loud minority, nothing more./quote]
Pretty much every member of the small minority of SATAM/Archie I've talked to want something wants a more serious Sonic, Since thats one of the main appeals of SATAM.

And don't tell me that Shadow and 2006 were a disaster because they were dark. This is bullshit, since Since SATAM and pre Ian archie are loved BECAUSE THEIR DARK! Shadow and 2006 sucked because they were horribly written pieces of shit, with glitches that rival Superman 64.

Plus, Dan Drazen's famous Mobius Apocalypse is also know as a fan fiction darling and is grim dark and written by one of the top three most popular members of the fandom.

[furrykef]

What a thoroughly pointless argument.

[John Roberts]

Gotta love it when individuals think they're speaking for the majority of the fans: "Sonic fans don't want dark stories", "Yes they do!"

And don't tell me that Shadow and 2006 were a disaster because they were dark. Shadow and 2006 sucked because they were horribly written pieces of shit, with glitches that rival Superman 64.

That was my understanding of why they sucked. There's dark theme stories, and then there's Sonic Team's version of dark theme stories.


What kind of story is this Tails series about anyway? I really enjoyed the old 3 issue mini-series way back when, minus the crappy ending ('G'day' is not a fucking goodbye!).

[henryiii]

Gotta love it when individuals think they're speaking for the majority of the fans: "Sonic fans don't want dark stories", "Yes they do!"

And don't tell me that Shadow and 2006 were a disaster because they were dark. Shadow and 2006 sucked because they were horribly written pieces of shit, with glitches that rival Superman 64.

That was my understanding of why they sucked. There's dark theme stories, and then there's Sonic Team's version of dark theme stories.


What kind of story is this Tails series about anyway? I really enjoyed the old 3 issue mini-series way back when, minus the crappy ending ('G'day' is not a fucking goodbye!).

Its an adaptation of an old Gamegear game called, well "Tails Adventure"

Here's a link with more info
Sonic Reteo

[Cheezmatt]

Sonic Adventure 2 is way up there on the grim scale, yet that seemed to go down quite well!

What kind of story is this Tails series about anyway?

Tails fights to save his island home from an army of robot... birds. Exactly how they've been shoehorned into the continuity remains to be seen, but it can't be worse than how they worked in the Special Zone. Or can it?

[John Roberts]

Tails has an island home?

[Cheezmatt]

You know how in Sonic Adventure, Tails randomly has a workshop in the middle of nowhere? Like that.