17 replies to this topic

[Chaosmaster8753]

http://community.liv...41435#t10841435

[chalcara]

Yeah. I love it when they translate "Trace for publication" as "inspire"


(On that note: Traceing's a great learning tool - as long as you own up of having done it.)

[Gojira007]

Heard about this a few days ago. I think the thing that smacks my gob the most is how the Hell Simmons Jr. thought he was going to get away with this. For crying out loud, Bleach is one of the best-selling manga in the world, it's up to some 40+ volumes at this point with an equally titanic Anime. How in the world could anyone be dense enough to think they could trace entire images from it without anyone friggin' noticing? I hope the arrogant little ass gets hit with some hard legal action.

[masterblaster]

On that note: Traceing's a great learning tool - as long as you own up of having done it.

Norman Rockwell traced his paintings from photographs...



Not saying that this Nick guy is justified in his tracing or that his talent is comparable to Rockwell in anyway, but tracing is more then just a learning tool. It is a method used by professionals for rendering better/faster art to clients and thus keeps budgets down and reduces overhead for the artists.

But it's not always the Fanboys that "copy" from other professionals....but the "professionals" that copy from the fans.

Black Eye Peas stole "Boom Boom Pow"

Or in another case, "Professionals" copying "Professionals".

Like that Todd Wahnish guy who was fired from Archie. After it was revealed that he traced screencaps of Sonic X for the comic book adaptation and claimed the work as his own.

Hopefully all this Nick/Bleach stuff could be settled out of court. Court is messy, and costly...

[John Roberts]

I use to copy photographed poses all the time in my drawings; hands, facial expressions and such. Tracing I don't really understand.

On topic: No fucking idea who Nick Simmons is.

[Vlad Yvhv]

The Dukes of Hazzard was based upon characters from the movie Ridgerunners.

[chief]

On topic: No fucking idea who Nick Simmons is.

The bass player from KISS's son.


And I like to find pictures of stuff and try to copy them using my drawing methods...but, Im just practicing. Not..making my own stuff

[John Roberts]

And I like to find pictures of stuff and try to copy them using my drawing methods...

Throwing paint at the wall in a drunken rage is hardly what you would call 'drawing methods'.

[furrykef]

Norman Rockwell traced his paintings from photographs...

I doubt Norman Rockwell did it with a photograph he had no legal right to. If you own the rights, it's OK; if you didn't, it's stealing. It's as simple as that.

By the way, you guys should check out Greg Land. He's about the worst comics plagiarist there is and he still gets work.

[masterblaster]

Throwing paint at the wall in a drunken rage is hardly what you would call 'drawing methods'.

Jackson Pollock would like a word with you…

I doubt Norman Rockwell did it with a photograph he had no legal right to. If you own the rights, it's OK; if you didn't, it's stealing. It's as simple as that.

Yes. Rockwell owned all the photos and composed EVERY aspect of the composition. I was just trying to dispel the belief that “tracing” (in general) is only done as a learning tool. Or is a method used by an “inferior” artist.

What if Nick got permission from the copied artists to use their work? How much would that change the discussion?

Would he still be getting the flak and hate mail over this event? Would people STILL be making fun of his art?

The fact that he made art by tracing shouldn’t be the noose everyone hangs him with. But by the fact that he stole art and took all the credit.

All of this could have been avoided with a disclaimer or a “works cited” page at the back of the comic.

Needless to say, Incarnate is going to become more rare after this fiasco. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned into a pricey collectors item after this…

[furrykef]

What if Nick got permission from the copied artists to use their work? How much would that change the discussion?

Would he still be getting the flak and hate mail over this event? Would people STILL be making fun of his art?

I think 1) he would, and 2) he probably should. (Well, maybe not the hate mail, but still, people wouldn't have to like it.) No, it's not heinous like stealing is, but here's the thing: just because something is well within your legal rights -- or even your moral rights -- that doesn't make it a good idea. It's uncreative. It's like saying "I don't have the time/patience/skill to bother to do this properly, so I'm just going to toss some crap together and hope you don't notice." People will feel insulted by that notion, and they probably should. Likewise, anybody is free to make a comic book that consists of the same panel copied over and over with different dialogue, but unless it's really brilliant stuff, good luck finding anybody who would find it worth their time.

I should add that copying or tracing a drawing is much easier than copying or tracing a photograph. I couldn't do what Norman Rockwell did, for example -- hell, I could only do the crudest approximation of it -- but I could very easily copy the Bleach drawings with the same proficiency as Nick Simmons. So could a dog. So it's not that people hate tracing, I think; they just hate unoriginality and poor attempts to cover up one's untalentedness.

- Kef

[masterblaster]

Now SEGA is doing it...

Not the first time...

[chalcara]

Now *that's* interesting. Stupid mistake, a bad move publicity wise, but still interesting.

Sonia is Sonic Franchaise character. I wonder if that actually counts as art-theft. Does Sega hold the right to re-use inofficial artwork made with their characters? Fan-art isn't regulary licensed, afterall, and most of it doesn't fall under fair use either. Fan Art's accepted due publicity reasons and since trying to shut it down would be a fight against windmills, but legally Sega could choose to sue distributors of fanart, no matter if money's made with it or not.

So. The picture's been made without the licensing contract - Is the copyright the artist has on the image overwritten by the trademark/copyright Sega has on the characters?

[masterblaster]

Haha...FAIL.

Here is what happened, when mocking up the SASR racing game they used the Sonia fanart (thinking that Sonia was Amy). They corrected this for the final product but didn't for the Steam PC version or the Wii.

This was NOT an honest homage to Sonic Underground, this was NOT a tribute to a Sonic Fan. This simply was misused fan art in a case of mistaken identity. Pink Hedgehog (Sonia) = Amy.

Some person at SEGA slipped up and this fell through QA.

Sonia is Sonic Franchaise character. I wonder if that actually counts as art-theft.

Art Theft is Art Theft. In this case, the fan gets to boast that her artwork was featured in a Sonic Game.

So. The picture's been made without the licensing contract - Is the copyright the artist has on the image overwritten by the trademark/copyright Sega has on the characters?

For something so trivial I don't think it would be wise to take any sort of legal action (if at all the fan artist wanted to), but a fan could "take" action if he wanted to...

Anyone familar with Dapper Dan and the Ghostbusters game?



They built the ENTIRE Wii game from Dapper Dan's Ghostbusters fan art. There WERE problems. Legal problems. And he had to be paid off. Some stuff happened and he was left of the game's credits. Pretty messy.

In the end, this is no big deal. But WHY did they even have to USE the Sonia fanart? Don't have have like stock images for this sort of thing? Is SEGA cruising DA and stuff or what?

[furrykef]

Sonia = Amy now. It's canon!

But WHY did they even have to USE the Sonia fanart? Don't have have like stock images for this sort of thing? Is SEGA cruising DA and stuff or what?

Remember that "they" are people and not mindless drones; everybody at the company has their own habits, and one of 'em probably habitually browsed Sonic art on DA. They're not doing it on behalf of Sega, they're doing it 'cause it's fun. Having the art slip through into the final product is, well, an honest mistake.

- Kef

[chalcara]

For something so trivial I don't think it would be wise to take any sort of legal action (if at all the fan artist wanted to), but a fan could "take" action if he wanted to...

And get smashed by a lawsuit on copyright infringement in return... Yeah. Doesn't sound too wise. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they can make two different lawsuits!

[furrykef]

Yep. The law would say that the Sonia pic is a derivative work, and a derivative work is only as original as the parts that differ from the original. The rest -- i.e., Sonia's general design -- belongs to the copyright holder of the original work.

(Actually, a character design is usually more in the realm of trademark law than copyright law, but I think copyright law can still apply if you're using a character from a copyrighted work...)

[Valerie Valens]

I will have to vehemently disagree with you Masterblaster on the whole tracing schtick. The famous artist which you cited may have used a photograph as a guide, but he is clearly skilled enough in that he can accurately reconstruct the photographed scene on his own just by looking at it. There's a big difference. Tracing is directly transferring the lines over from a previously existing work to your own. As such, this would make tracing not only a dishonest and lazy way to do your creative work, but also an especially crappy way to learn to draw since it precludes lessons on constructing figure, line weights and form.

I don't see any point in trying to justify this. Yes, comic artists sometimes trace to save time, but how many of them are responsible for the top-notch comics and graphic novels?

As far as this case goes, it could not get any more blatantly obvious if it tried, though it could always be a case of the Red Sonic syndrome, amirite? =P

It's just like that time the guy who did the music for Super Robot Wars K got caught ganking famous songs from SNES games like Lufia and get this, Magus' Theme from Chrono Trigger. What in the fuck? How the hell did he expect to get away with that? Sure the PR guy said it was an inspiration, an homage, if you will, to great composers of that era, but we who grew up with SNES games recognized that stunt of his for what it is.