Jump to content


Toggle shoutbox Shoutbox Open the Shoutbox in a popup

@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 11:25 AM)

Also I still have to figure out how to set up our e-mail accounts on the new host.

@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 08:19 AM)

As soon as I figure out how to restore it. Sorry, I know I said it'd be done by now, but I didn't expect to have to put up with this DNS crap and other issues that popped up.

@  Uncle Ben : (24 July 2015 - 07:56 AM)

So when's the black theme coming back??

@  Uncle Ben : (24 July 2015 - 07:56 AM)

"Should"

@  furrykef : (24 July 2015 - 07:27 AM)

That DNS took longer to propagate properly than I thought it would. *Now* we should be back for good, though.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 08:48 PM)

Or it might be because Bluehost *finally* got around to that server wipe (one week after we'd asked for it) and that wiped out our DNS settings. I'm not sure which and I don't really care. In any case, we've severed our last ties with Bluehost, so this will not happen again.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 08:08 PM)

Looks like Bluehost yanked our DNS since our hosting account expired. That's why the site went down a while ago. But as you can see, it's fixed now.

@  Misk : (23 July 2015 - 04:55 PM)

No, they do not.

@  furrykef : (23 July 2015 - 04:27 AM)

The goggles do nothing?

@  Misk : (22 July 2015 - 05:50 PM)

My eyes.

@  furrykef : (22 July 2015 - 12:24 PM)

Looks like forum uploads might have been broken since last night. That should be fixed now too.

@  furrykef : (22 July 2015 - 01:33 AM)

Heh, whoops! Server went down for a few mins when I borked the config. Looks like it's back up now.

@  Uncle Ben : (21 July 2015 - 09:09 PM)

It looked like a napkin

@  ILOVEVHS : (21 July 2015 - 09:04 PM)

Fan-fuckin-tastic.

@  furrykef : (21 July 2015 - 08:25 PM)

As for the beaver picture while the forum was down, I think Tim drew it. On a napkin.

@  furrykef : (21 July 2015 - 08:24 PM)

No kiddin' about that "Finally!", Shadow. I am *so mad* at Bluehost for never responding to our support ticket. I submitted it early Friday morning and they *still* haven't answered it!

@  Uncle Ben : (21 July 2015 - 06:37 PM)

Maybe he did that himself

@  Shadow : (21 July 2015 - 05:25 PM)

Say, who made the cute picture of Beaver Chief?

@  Shadow : (21 July 2015 - 05:24 PM)

Finally!

@  RedMenace : (21 July 2015 - 05:02 PM)

Woooo! The site's back up! Three cheers for Kef!


Photo

Are You A Sonsal Or A Sonamy


  • Please log in to reply
438 replies to this topic

#361 E122Psi

E122Psi

    Fellow FUSer

  • Fellow FUSer
  • 138 posts

Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:32 PM

 

While I am maybe focusing on the negative, I am trying to specific enough that it is constructive critism and the key to fixing the chemistry is visible.

 

I think a recurring problem is most of the writers remotely interesting in making Sally 'flawed' don't really understand the 'quirks' and defining characteristics of her personality. Ian doesn't really grasp Sal's personality, she actually tends to come off rather bland most of the time. Hurst got most of the key shortcomings of her character down pat in terms of her demeanor and acting (eg. well intentioned controlling freak, neurotic, self righteous, finicky temperament) but never really made any story opportunities when they were the focus or made her screw up. He probably made the most accurate case where Sonic 'won' against her approach in Drood Henge, specifically winning because Sonic was willing to take an opportunity and was less overcautious and by the book than Sal, but even then, Sally didn't really make a detrimental error in this case, just found a circumstance her way could overlook key advantages.

 

Others try to make a similar rendition, but it never quite has the effect, either because it's harbored with pretentious melodrama and angst (eg. the Slap) or actually involves her flip flopping her approach and doing something that is somewhat reckless (eg. Secret Scrolls, the first issue) which in a sense also makes her look a bit like a hypocrite who badgers Sonic over standards she can't hold up to herself. Writers fail to really pinpoint Sally's flaws in a way that don't make her unsympathetic (or when they do they overdo the waterworks and outright make her errors too forgivable, eg. Ian's wangsty moments in the Iron Dominion arc).

 

I can sorta understand this problem since Sal's approach in a flawed nature would most often make her a control freak, which can often be viewed as very unlikable characters when made in the wrong light. This isn't always the case, but if you don't write their views and feelings consistently enough they can go from a character who merely thinks they know what's best for everyone to something of a self serving bully.

 

 I want you to factor in that she is indeed a child solider and leader with tremendous stress on her. She wants her plans to work, and there is room for fallacy and overconfidence. If we look at people like Tesla and Einstein we see their brilliance was variant and they could suffer from mental tunnel vision. I myself have Aspergers, and though, last time I checked in 6th grade, have an IQ in the high one-hundreds, I have some hilariously dumb moments (usually involving finding lost things that were right in front of my face along, like, in literal sense, my glasses. xD) I want you take good note of her backstory as character and her mentality for a sec. Abandon the tropic thinking and psychoanalyze her like a real person a for moment.   

 

I understand, but I feel these are things lost in execution, since not only do they not really focus on her flaws and insecurities accurately enough, they aren't always careful to keep the sort positive well intentioned aspects that drive them evident as well. Most fans were pretty assured the slap was the worst thing to happen to her character for example and her moment in the first issue (while played more for laughs) pretty much played her as catty bitch with a 'Never My Fault' complex. 

 

Also as mentioned they have to be careful which flaws and character traits they stem from. I don't think all these attempts to show her randomly being reckless and cocky work because, not only is it not really connected at all with her own ethics and potential shortcomings, it also makes her look like an enormous hypocrite. Having her make the same oversights as Sonic works for a sparse 'Not So Different' moment to show it's not always easy keeping to standards, but making her most consistent pivot of error going against her normal approach makes her look like she makes orders and standards for people she doesn't try to uphold herself. Same for Sonic giving this like the wind ethic but then holding grudges and having angsty outbursts when the problem concerns HIM. It diminishes the positive elements of their approach and just makes them inconsistent egotists who think everyone should be subordinate to them, rather than just being so passionate and assured of a specific ethic that they get kinda pushy and bull headed about it.

 

There's also the fact that a lot of times, the humility or consequences that come from it are downplayed. Flawed moments worked if they are treated realistically, but a character who is enabled and never learns from their errors can come off annoying (again the first issue, the reason the plan failed was as much her fault, but she threw a huge tantrum blaming everyone else and pretty much telling them it's their fault their family's are still captive and suffering, to which the others...just accepted it). This is especially problematic because one of Sally's most consistent flaws is that she's kinda self righteous, a trait that can be sympathetic when treated with the right humility, but when enabled constantly can make the character completely insufferable. No one likes it when a character gets an undeserved pedestal.

 

I feel that in concept her character has all the right points to make her sympathetic in her meticulous aspects (she's traumatized from witnessing people suffering from making risks or errors, her foil is just as pig headed and confrontational as she is, and she is even implied to have been brought up by a strict authority figure who has raised her to trust standards and rules rather than her own initiative), it should be pretty much engraved into her mindset given what's she's been through. The problem is most of these elements, and the flaws that potentially stem from it, are often skewed or overlooked, like the writers don't really know what her actual personality is. She's basically a jigsaw puzzle with a beautiful complex picture when finished, but has been pieced together in completely the wrong way.



#362 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:05 AM


 

I understand, but I feel these are things lost in execution, since not only do they not really focus on her flaws and insecurities accurately enough, they aren't always careful to keep the sort positive well intentioned aspects that drive them evident as well. Most fans were pretty assured the slap was the worst thing to happen to her character for example and her moment in the first issue (while played more for laughs) pretty much played her as catty bitch with a 'Never My Fault' complex. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, yes there have been quite a few flubs that broke the dimensionality character. Sadly the are not mutually exclusive to her:  http://static1.wikia...itanTails01.png . Heck, this is truly ubiquitous, look at Picard in First Contact (was completly off kilter as a Ishmealian psychopath A fun movie, though it is) rather the original cool, rational intellectual, and that was a Hollywood blockbluster with bukoos put in to it. To take something from my own Protestantism, I'd like to to say this: Semper Reformanda, always reforming. Imperfect, there is always something to make better and improve in our perceptions of something as well as our execution. We can only fix flaws by analyzing them honestly, and then finding soultions... rather than complaining (like most unagreable shippers out there).

 

 

Also as mentioned they have to be careful which flaws and character traits they stem from. I don't think all these attempts to show her randomly being reckless and cocky work because, not only is it not really connected at all with her own ethics and potential shortcomings, it also makes her look like an enormous hypocrite. Having her make the same oversights as Sonic works for a sparse 'Not So Different' moment to show it's not always easy keeping to standards, but making her most consistent pivot of error going against her normal approach makes her look like she makes orders and standards for people she doesn't try to uphold herself. Same for Sonic giving this like the wind ethic but then holding grudges and having angsty outbursts when the problem concerns HIM. It diminishes the positive elements of their approach and just makes them inconsistent egotists who think everyone should be subordinate to them, rather than everyone should follow a specific direction they believe will aid them.

 

 No they don't. She being reckless blindly makes no sense. Her commiting an oversight due to  tactical tunnel vision, a lack of improvisation, logical fallacy, overconfidence in one or more of her adept abilities, rigourous misfocus on the macrocosmic due to her micromanaging pendantics, and/or her vulrability to chaotic and ambigous elements could easily lead her to making a bad call. Be careful here and note your perspective. We usually don't see that a move was reckless untill it was almost too late. Look at the bloody and dehumanizing system of secular communism in the 20th century and the Coldwar, distiguished leaders made boneheaded moves picking to side with the communists because they really didn't know how the Cold War was going to pan out from their own perspective. From our more wholistic perspective we can say "yeah, that was a dumb move, a free market gives one freedom to expand the market beyond mere necessity and into a all sorts of frontiers of creative progress. A.K.A: Big macs, freedom of faith and opinion, and sports cars won the Cold War." xD   Remember we see all see the cards, and how everyone at the table played them after  the poker game. Sally is a character not the reader, she doesn't see some things we see. She can make decisions that in hindsight seem reckless, but that is because she hasn't the full knowledge. She was so focused on Maga once, and had faith in her and Rooter's combined knowledge that the Freedom Stormer was well built, that she couldn't predict by no means that the throtel would jam or had made any contingencies for such an event. Still, could that be better exposisted and fleshed out? My reponse, everything can be better expositied and fleshed out... There is always room for improvment in writing as well as anything. But for kid show in the early 90's, in a world to scared to make anything deeper than crap like Captain Planet, that had more character than anything for it's time. Let's try to keep the momentum going forward, shall we?

 

 

There's also the fact that a lot of times, the humility or consequences that come from it are downplayed. Flawed moments worked if they are treated realistically, but a character who is enabled and never learns from their errors can come off annoying (again the first issue, the reason the plan failed was as much her fault, but she threw a huge tantrum blaming everyone else and pretty much telling them it's their fault their family's are still captive and suffering, to which the others...just accepted it). This is especially problematic because one of Sally's most consistent flaws is that she's kinda self righteous, a trait that can be sympathetic when treated with the right humility, but when enabled constantly can make the character completely insufferable. No one likes it when a character gets an undeserved pedestal.

 

 

 And that should never be so. Every lessons should impact her, she is a very intrapersonal character and she should be able to make accurate and biting observations on her internal character. We should dismiss the first comic now, it was at time people were shooting in the dark about all those characters for various meta-fictional troubles. I agree on her being self-righteous, and I would argue that peculiar egocentrism does indeed breed recklessness. You could have a genuine, not so different moment with her via her own phrasieism. "Pride goeth before destruction and huaghty spirit before a fall..."   Note disabling her is very easy to do. She has no superpowers and only blood to back her authority. Might I remind you blood is easy to spill, just ask Louis XIV. Monarchy is a weak claim to power, though the family specializes in ruling it doesn't mean they should always rule the day ...  Sally has to have true leadership skills , and a lot of Batmanesque prowess to keep up in her crazy world and give weight to her title. Also, I always found her downplaying her role as a princess, tough really getting her hands dirty as the squad leader (Let's be honest, Sonic was not the leader of The Freedom Fighters, though she said as such. She did all tactics and logistics. Sonic was the protagonist but in group dynamics he was her lancer.)  I think the Freedom Fighters, realistically, are not going to backdown to her if she makes an irrational decision. I for one would smack her in the back of the head and tell her my piece of mind in such a situation.

 

 

I feel that in concept her character has all the right points to make her sympathetic in her meticulous aspects (she's traumatized from witnessing people suffering from making risks or errors, her foil is just as pig headed and confrontational as she is, and she is even implied to have been brought up by a strict authority figure who has raised her to trust standards and rules rather than her own initiative), it should be pretty much engraved into her mindset given what's she's been through. The problem is most of these elements, and the flaws that potentially stem from it, are often skewed or overlooked, like the writers don't really know what her actual personality is. She's basically a jigsaw puzzle with a beautiful complex picture when finished, but has been pieced together in completely the wrong way.

 

 Sally will cling to tradition, the same people like Baseball. The lines are always straight and crisp white. The rules are ever constant. There are balls, there are bats, and there are gloves; and no matter how hectic life gets it's an ancor of sanity. It doesn't change. It doesn't have to change. It's passed down and something stable everyone can hold on to. It was there before you, and it will there for the rest of your life. She still clings to that stupid title of Princess because it reminds her where she comes from and where she wants to go, despite the chaos of the coupe-world. She has a stickler attitude because if you took  glorified nostalgic view of her past away from her, she would loose a large swath of her sense of direction. Her sense of rules and her personal worlview/meta-narrative are sometimes a crutch for her intellectual abilities. And she needs a free spirit and creative mind like Sonic to help break that stogey mold. That puzzle you speak of can be made, but it's not going to make itself... Best get cracking.   



#363 E122Psi

E122Psi

    Fellow FUSer

  • Fellow FUSer
  • 138 posts

Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:42 AM

I agree with you on most comments. However concerning the recklessness issue, I meant less in cases like Secret Scrolls with that 'tunnel vision' you say and she is at least rather defensive and convinced her plan will work and more for recent moments in Archie where she is shown not taking issues and risks seriously. This is especially evident in the Iron Dominion arc where it is implied that some Mobians actually did pay the price via legionization because she and the others repeatedly made cocky oversights, first ignoring any threat in Snively and then making the ridiculous mistake of leaving NICOLE vulnerable to a techno mage, not for much other reason than they were too cocky and busy feeling good about themselves.

 

It doesn't help that whenever she and Sonic are called out on their mistakes, they act extremely confrontational and self righteous about it, they don't like anyone stepping on their way of doing things and to an extent even castrate other fractions abilities to take steps of their own, yet when they finally put their lives in their hands, they don't take the responsibility with proper seriousness. It only works because of Ian's tendency to use strawmen (eg. Hamlin had good points which Sally pretty much just blackmailed in retaliation, she outright made the council herself but then ignores their say the moment they suggest something the team don't agree with, which makes their creation seem more like a shallow publicity stunt while still not really compromising any power, though we're not supposed to feel he has a point since he does it all out of spiteful grudge and just generally has the demeanor of a smug weasel).

 

Sally could be seen as sympathetic if she were at least taking their concerns and safety seriously like she usually does, but as of recently she's gained Sonic's attitude, which makes her seem more neglectful and apathetic to other's well being (compared to her 'control freak' mode, which was overbearing, but always near obsessively with the best intentions for her people). Similarly Sonic has become very confrontational and vindictive towards anyone who objects to his ideas. All versions of Sonic do what they believe is right and nothing else, but most of them are easy going guys, they don't waste time trying to force others to agree with them and just have a 'you do what you want, I'll do what I want' approach. That is what being 'like the wind' is. Archie Sonic however feels more like a tantrum prone brat who believes only he's allowed to rebel and be the big hero. This is where I feel Sonic and Sally's ethics are not interchangeable, because having both set of flaws leads to them coming off as being inconsistent and full of crap.

 

I feel like you're edging me more into trying to write a fanfic here. ;P



#364 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:11 AM

 I think the whole idea of building you city out of material that can be hacked into is really bad...in general. I find the nanomachine-makes-magical-everything concept as smelling ripe with phlebotonic contrivance. It's sad when the bricks eveyr building in Neo-Mobo become Deus Ex Machina. You could do so much more with them having to build Neo-Mobo and gather resources for such. And the drama of trying to improve the living conditions of their fellow Mobians. I think Sally in Satam as young and still very green. And I guess you could say Archie Sally in the Dominian Arc suffers from what they call in Westpoint as"Victory Disease." Still, that could be better handled.

 

 Not to mention a majority of the people on the council make bumbly Obama look like the love child of The Fire Lord and King Solomon. :/  I could understand that our heros would butt heads with a bunch of brainless civilians that are undermining the very freedom (they have their flesh, they should be thankful) and progress they gave them. If it were up to me, I would have shot half of them, govenor style. xD "This isn't a democracy! You haven't earned it..."

 

  I think dealing with a goofy bueracrcy stuck in the past and temptation towards becoming a more pragmatic character, is something that is ignored by Archie. I think Sally, enabled as a leader and responsible, could make some really harsh decisions that could lead her down quite a spiral. She might break from her seemingly repressive ethics to accomplish her goals. While Sonic's morals, not bound by stuffy political rules, are more spirtual and based strong in his own individual nature (It's all in his theme Song: It doesn't matter.) Sonic has an edge of her morally as person who won't be blinded by politics and will stay a bastion of righteoussness (though he can be somewhat self-righteous). I think Sonic is a total type-B, semi-libertarian personality, he will give you his advice but it's your life. If you want to screw it up, that is your fualt. But if your decisions hurt other people... he's indeed going to smack you around something fierce. 

 

 I am.



#365 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:06 PM

Thoughts Sorzo? ;)

 

Yes I see you.



#366 Captain Sorzo

Captain Sorzo

    The Captain

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Richardson, Texas

Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:32 PM

Thoughts Sorzo? ;)

 

Yes I see you.

 

Stalker.

 

Most of the recent discussion seems to concern comic issues that I haven't read, so I can't offer much input other than that everything I've seen indicates Archie's depictions of Sonic and Sally rarely, if ever, measured up to the quality seen in SatAM. My personal conceptions of the characters don't even take the comics into account. Not consciously, anyway.

 

I don't feel that the imbalance in their relationship [in SatAM] is as problematic as Psi seems to. It's an issue of emphasis and focus rather than the characterization itself. As such, for me at least, it impacts only individual episodes and not the underlying narrative I draw inspiration from when writing. It's a superficial flaw, in other words, one that could be very easily rectified.

 

Psi, I agree with Stranger that the surest way to see the potential of a narrative realized to one's satisfaction is to attempt it oneself. The entirety of fanfiction seems built on the axiom of "If you want something done right, do it yourself." It's certainly why I'm writing.



#367 Prince ByTor

Prince ByTor

    SatAM and Sally Acorn Fan

  • Fellow FUSer
  • 452 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tobes of Hades

Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:50 PM

About the Mobus 20/25 years later. While I liked finally seeing Sonic and Sally together and having kids; ever since I read it I thought it was more or less similar to many of the fanfict stories that dot the internet. For me the real future story was, I believe, in issue 20, if I remember right. They didn't get too much into it but a couple of pages, but the part that rang true was Sonic and Sally were the same people we always liked. Even in the Mobius X years after arc Sally was more or less 'castrated' as well; she wasn't the same character we all love either. So, I don't think that that arc is a good place to cite; let's face it: the story was not that good and was more of less contrived by an author's vision rather than being true to the characters.

Here's a plot hole that I have always scratched my head at: King Sonic. Okay, he married into the crown, but that make a king does not. I dare you to name one monarchy in the real world that allows for someone to marry into the crown and then become the ruler. Let's take the House of Windsor for example: Elizabeth is Queen, but her husband, Phillip has the title of Prince and Royal Consort. Even though he is the father and grandfather of all the princes and princesses he has no claim to the crown, just like Elizabeth's mother The Queen Mother Mary. Also, even if Sonic was bestowed the title of King there would be no power behind it and also nothing to keep him from running off and doing as he pleased anyway, and Sally would definitely join him.

The second part of the story that I found unbelievable is that Sonic can be 'tamed' and also that Sally would have him tamed. If you look at her throughout the SatAM series, especially in the pilot episode, you can see that his free spirit is something she finds very attractive. I believe that there are two aspects to this: 1. She longs for the freedom he has, and 2. He is the 'unicorn' if you will that she knows she can never tame, but wants to try all the same. Even though she might berate him for doing something dangerous he is always rewarded with her love and a kiss. And while Sonic can do these dangerous tasks others cannot, and what kind of a leader just lets her troops run wild? If she doesn't get on him when he does dangerous things, then how can she get on the others when they do something dangerous? If she doesn't try to keep order they just might as well disband and it becomes every man for himself then. When I see Sally get on Sonic most of the time it's in a professional manner: leader to soldier, not lover to lover.

Whatever the case under no circumstances do I see their relationship degrading to that of Mobus 20/25 Years later. Sonic would not want anything to do with Sally if she was like that, and Sally especially wouldn't love Sonic if he became that way; if she wanted someone like that she'd have just married Antoine.



#368 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:59 PM

You already know how I'm dealing with this in EoT:
 
Bunnie swiped her eyelids dry. Flicking away her tears, her attention stayed fixed on Sonic.  "You do have Sally, sugar. Why, she thinks the world of you, though she don't fess up to it more than she ought. And you two...you are just the cutest thing together." She doated with a fond, though still tear-eyed, look. "Why, you are -"
 
  Sonic smacked his fists together. "I am Sonic The Hedgehog - I kick tin-can kiesters, dupe dictators,  and blow up doomsday machines." Sonic tensed, his quills standing on end. "But Sally Acorn, - oh wait, when were no longer in Knothole I guess we'll have to call 'er Lady Salena  ( 'cause, you know, royals positively daren't have nicknames) -   well, she is going to be ruling a country someday. Don't get me wrong Bunnie I lo -"
 
 Bunnie's ears darted up straight like two antennas. Her aquamarine eyes beaming with a wondered shock. Sonic winced, rapidly covering his tracks. Great job, 'nic, last thing you need is to say the L-Word in front of chatty Bunnie. Get any more mushy-gushy with the ole mouth, and everybody will think you've gone softer than Antoine. Before you now you'll be readin' Sal "phoum's" in a goofy accent. Sonic cleared his throat. " I like Sally," he recovered carefully, keeping his tone as smooth an nonchalant as possible. "But I don't like her title. Ya got me?"
 
 "You don't like the idea of being Prince Sonic ?" Bunnie tilted her head, curious and sniffling. Her eyes narrowed  into teary, suspicious slits. 
 
"Whoa Bunnie!" He waved his hands in front of her. "Too soon to talk like that, way too soon!"
 
 She shrugged off his intensity with a coy giggle. She took another sip of her drink, savoring it. The tangy drink seemed to rebolster her spirits a bit (that, and her deliberate tease). "You know it's the direction you're headin'," She said between smacks of her soured lips. "You ain't got the royal blood to be king, but that still gives you -"
 
 "A whole lot to handle," Sonic finished before her. "I'm not royal material you know..."


#369 E122Psi

E122Psi

    Fellow FUSer

  • Fellow FUSer
  • 138 posts

Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:01 PM

My problem in Archie is less they clash with people who argue with them and sometimes are shown with an incompetent opinion, but sometimes they give off the rather egotistical opinion that people shouldn't be allowed to contradict them in the first place. There's a difference between feeling you deserve gratitude for your heroism, and feeling no one should call you out for an error. After all it undermines your efforts to save someone if you just do something stupid to negate it all afterwards (as mentioned in the Iron Dominion arc, after saving the world from being turned into robot slaves, their cockiness allowed another baddie to take over and...turn people into robot slaves in a different method this time).

 

Sonic and Sally's attitude just screams completely of 'Never My Fault' and that because of their past efforts they should be void of any consequences for their actions, they are above normal standards (you know, from the same girl who thought the status of princess was superficial). Their attitude after people complain about what their stupidity done afterwards (if somewhat callously) is that 'people could be put in serious danger, but we won't do a thing because it would hurt our friends feelings', to the point Sonic basically wishes Eggman would come and terrorize them again just to show them. Sure the people who conflict with them have a poor way of handling it, but I think they're entitled to feel unsafe around such people who try to restrain their attempts to protect themselves out of pure personal pride.

 

 

And while Sonic can do these dangerous tasks others cannot, and what kind of a leader just lets her troops run wild? If she doesn't get on him when he does dangerous things, then how can she get on the others when they do something dangerous? If she doesn't try to keep order they just might as well disband and it becomes every man for himself then. When I see Sally get on Sonic most of the time it's in a professional manner: leader to soldier, not lover to lover.

Whatever the case under no circumstances do I see their relationship degrading to that of Mobus 20/25 Years later. Sonic would not want anything to do with Sally if she was like that, and Sally especially wouldn't love Sonic if he became that way; if she wanted someone like that she'd have just married Antoine.

I'm not saying Sonic shouldn't have been called out for his moments of arrogance and recklessness. Most of the stories that do so in Satam (eg. No Brainer, Sonic Conversation) were at least done well and gave Sonic's rather abrasive personality some humility. It's just that, as mentioned this sort of laser guided karma rarely happened to Sally despite following the opposite extreme and a matching ego, or really any other Freedom Fighter concerning their flaws, which not only seeped of being something of a Double Standard, but also seemed to punctuate Sonic as being a lot more incompetent than the others because of his flaws. Only HE ever had his shortcomings challenged and had to learn to better himself, everyone else was just enabled, even Antoine, despite being the Butt Monkey only ever was put in a situation he had to correct his errors once or twice. Secret Scrolls was about the one instance Sally learned of her error, and as said, it half felt more like she was being punished for acting like Sonic than having her own shortcomings called out and this example was much more subtle and brief than the majority of Sonic's examples where he usually spends most of the episode suffering a merciless Break The Haughty scenario.

 

One of the key development problems with most of the Freedom Fighters is that they were usually just regulated to Straight Men and periphery characters for Sonic (par Antoine who seemed designed to make Sonic's ego look more subtle and act as a Straw Loser) and thus their personalities rarely were important outside being calmer more rational foils that emphasized his flaws. The comics TRY to develop them individually, but are so used to only their positive aspects being on display they don't really know how to remedy it, not to mention tend to undermine most 'quirky' eccentric elements of the cast that could make them stand out (as said one of the things that stood out for Sally in Satam was she had this sort of childish innocence to her, something that is disregarded in favor of making her a dead serious war leader that the reader's treat with utter drama in the comics, how dare Sonic characters act like cartoons).

 

I agree on the idea that is something that could easily be fixed if looked into the right way, but the fact still stands that hardly a single story in twenty years has managed to do so, even with writers who seem damn vehement to place Sally in a flawed light. Writing a fanfic would add some amount of cathartism to the matter so I may try it out (I've made some for stuff like The Dreamstone on the grounds of how much untapped potential I see), but I don't think it's going to change a damn thing professionally, especially since, from what I know, writers are forbidden to look at fanfics for source material anyway. From the looks of things, boring flawless Sally is here to stay.



#370 Captain Sorzo

Captain Sorzo

    The Captain

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Richardson, Texas

Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:38 PM

I don't think it's going to change a damn thing professionally

 

No, but honestly does that even matter? The only inherent distinction between the Archie comics and fan fiction is a wider audience and a stamp of approval by a draconian publisher that couldn't care less about the narrative quality as long as it's perceived to be effective marketing. Sea3on doesn't have those things, but at the end of the day it's the better work of fiction, and the same can be true of our own work.

 

If there was no audience at all for such fan fiction, I would understand the perception of it being futile, but such an audience, though small, does exist. There are likely around a dozen users on this site that your work would reach, in addition to guests and users on other sites such as Saturday Morning Sonic or DeviantArt. It's not much, but you certainly wouldn't be writing to a void. On top of that, most of those that would read your work write stories themselves, giving your writing the potential to influence other works, which could influence other works and so on.

 

So what if your writing doesn't reach some kid begging his mother for the Sonic comic sitting on the grocery store rack? It'd still be reaching someone, still be making a difference.

 

I'll, ah, get down from my soapbox now. :blush:



#371 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:02 PM

 

I don't think it's going to change a damn thing professionally

 

No, but honestly does that even matter? The only inherent distinction between the Archie comics and fan fiction is a wider audience and a stamp of approval by a draconian publisher that couldn't care less about the narrative quality as long as it's perceived to be effective marketing. Sea3on doesn't have those things, but at the end of the day it's the better work of fiction, and the same can be true of our own work.

 

If there was no audience at all for such fan fiction, I would understand the perception of it being futile, but such an audience, though small, does exist. There are likely around a dozen users on this site that your work would reach, in addition to guests and users on other sites such as Saturday Morning Sonic or DeviantArt. It's not much, but you certainly wouldn't be writing to a void. On top of that, most of those that would read your work write stories themselves, giving your writing the potential to influence other works, which could influence other works and so on.

 

So what if your writing doesn't reach some kid begging his mother for the Sonic comic sitting on the grocery store rack? It'd still be reaching someone, still be making a difference.

 

I'll, ah, get down from my soapbox now. :blush:

 

 

 No... *Grabs you and push you back on the soap box alongside him* You are going to stay here and make something happen. Unlike other people.

 

 Actually, just ask Chief, he has talked and showed off Sea3on material to various people on the other side of the fanon/canon viel with warm approval. It's not the writers, or the performers, or half people working at Sega  that are contractly obligated to ignore the fan-base and its push for changes, its just a small group of diconnected executives that have no love for their jobs other than a pay check and some vague sense of self-actualization due the prigish honor/shame-based cultural diconnect attitude that pollutes SOJ.  Well I got news for you, they are not going to be around forever. Even now there is a grass-roots reform in SEGA, even to where people together from the inside and out of the company almost got Ryan Drummond to play Sonic again due the Lead Creative Consult being a fan and wanting to please fans. Only one idiot stopped this from truly going down, and it cuased people to want to crucify him after they realized he was sucking up cash from the company like parasite all the while being a cheapskate to Drummon and refusing to pay his Union Fees. Times they are a changin', the people who love and grew up with Sonic are starting to work for SEGA now, and when these old and aloof Robber Barons pop off to Corprativist Hell or retire you'll have not these stuffy modernists but passionate, young millenials wanting celebrate what the work they cheerish and grew up with .  Also, you are forgetting one big, huge thing: The internet has restored the power folklore and has liberated entertainment from the idealogical and creatively narrow annals of Hollywood and big-name productions. The face of the entertaiment industry is changing rapidly and consumers have more power over the products than ever (just look at interactive fiction and hacking/modding). Also look at the power to amass a fan base via the internet, look at people like Pewdie Pie, Cry, Sam and Niko, Mr. Creepy Pasta, Arnel Pineda (the guy who now instead poor and starving sings for Journey),  or works like Marble Hornet's and Victor Surge's Slenderman. If a group of dedicated fans made a reconstructed and well thought out Sonic story all together, they...wow...they could change Sonic forever. They could even beat out Sega, Archie, and all these procrusteanly limited and contrived dung-soaked ideas that seems to bubble off from the corporate sewage from time to time (like Titan Tails and Werehogs) . Look, http://www.youtube.c...h?v=R0RNkkd2peE  (focus real hard around 5:52) Slendy is a goo example, look how he changed the gaming industry on the Indie level massivly, and refreshed the horror genre in market trounced by bland COD clones. Why can't a good fan-series alter the trajectory of Sonic in part, when a guy with no face can change the whole of pop-culture, the horror genre, and gaming?  Some franchises have already dared to blaze the trail of this more interactive consumer-producer relationship (EA was forced into it, having to change the ending of ME3 via free DLC - a first in the industry!) and then there is stuff like Kindle Worlds (http://www.amazon.co...ocId=1001197421). Honeslty, this is the future...if you are not on board - then enjoy the Middle Ages! :/ Consumer Sovernigty and Competition, the hallmark beauty of Capitalism.

 

To quote my father, a miltary man with a zero-tolerance for griping and B.S:  "In the end of the day I say this... You are part of the solution or your part of the problem."

 

 What are you going to be?



#372 Captain Sorzo

Captain Sorzo

    The Captain

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Richardson, Texas

Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:54 PM


 No... *Grabs you and push you back on the soap box alongside him* You are going to stay here and make something happen. Unlike other people.

 

But I need sleep! Also, muffins.

 

And for the record, the whole ME3 ending fiasco is a sore point for me, one I don't consider an example of healthy developer-consumer interaction. While I felt the original ending was rather abrupt and confusing and am glad that the EC exists, in no way did it come close to deserving the biggest collective tantrum the gaming industry has ever seen. Bandwagon hate, hyperbole, and blatant lack of understanding eclipsed meaningful debate, despite self-righteous claims to the contrary. The fact that the movement described itself as retaking Mass Effect, as if it were theirs to begin with, speaks volumes of the arrogance and lack of respect toward those who invested years of their lives making the series that characterized the movement.



#373 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:04 PM

 


 No... *Grabs you and push you back on the soap box alongside him* You are going to stay here and make something happen. Unlike other people.

 

But I need sleep! Also, muffins.

 

And for the record, the whole ME3 ending fiasco is a sore point for me, one I don't consider an example of healthy developer-consumer interaction. While I felt the original ending was rather abrupt and confusing and am glad that the EC exists, in no way did it come close to deserving the biggest collective tantrum the gaming industry has ever seen. Bandwagon hate, hyperbole, and blatant lack of understanding eclipsed meaningful debate, despite self-righteous claims to the contrary. The fact that the movement described itself as retaking Mass Effect, as if it were theirs to begin with, speaks volumes of the arrogance and lack of respect toward those who invested years of their lives making the series that characterized the movement.

 

 

 I will buy you a coffee and a muffin. :)

 

 I agree. But what matters is that it happend. And EA getting the America's Worst Business award twice in a row, shows what direction we are going. This is going to happen. The world is changing no matter what. Either we are going to stew and negativity and thus make this a lliving hell that make this road more thorny than it ought to be or we start thinking critically and trying to edify the markets.



#374 Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

    Everybody's Favorite Uncle ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Moderators
  • 12,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lowell, Massachusetts

Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:20 PM

 

 


 No... *Grabs you and push you back on the soap box alongside him* You are going to stay here and make something happen. Unlike other people.

 

But I need sleep! Also, muffins.

 

And for the record, the whole ME3 ending fiasco is a sore point for me, one I don't consider an example of healthy developer-consumer interaction. While I felt the original ending was rather abrupt and confusing and am glad that the EC exists, in no way did it come close to deserving the biggest collective tantrum the gaming industry has ever seen. Bandwagon hate, hyperbole, and blatant lack of understanding eclipsed meaningful debate, despite self-righteous claims to the contrary. The fact that the movement described itself as retaking Mass Effect, as if it were theirs to begin with, speaks volumes of the arrogance and lack of respect toward those who invested years of their lives making the series that characterized the movement.

 

 

 I will buy you a coffee and a muffin. :)

 

 I agree. But what matters is that it happend. And EA getting the America's Worst Business award twice in a row, shows what direction we are going. This is going to happen. The world is changing no matter what. Either we are going to stew and negativity and thus make this a lliving hell that make this road more thorny than it ought to be or we start thinking critically and trying to edify the markets.

 

 

God dammit now i want Dunkin Donuts.... And i need to find a Tim Horton's... i think theres one in Worchester

 

Well we are the one's who buy the games so in a sense its ours.


Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced Her Majesty The Queen to a Greek racialist. All we know is, I'm going to the tower now to have my head cut off, and he is called The Stig.

#375 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:32 PM





No... *Grabs you and push you back on the soap box alongside him* You are going to stay here and make something happen. Unlike other people.


But I need sleep! Also, muffins.

And for the record, the whole ME3 ending fiasco is a sore point for me, one I don't consider an example of healthy developer-consumer interaction. While I felt the original ending was rather abrupt and confusing and am glad that the EC exists, in no way did it come close to deserving the biggest collective tantrum the gaming industry has ever seen. Bandwagon hate, hyperbole, and blatant lack of understanding eclipsed meaningful debate, despite self-righteous claims to the contrary. The fact that the movement described itself as retaking Mass Effect, as if it were theirs to begin with, speaks volumes of the arrogance and lack of respect toward those who invested years of their lives making the series that characterized the movement.

I will buy you a coffee and a muffin. :)

I agree. But what matters is that it happend. And EA getting the America's Worst Business award twice in a row, shows what direction we are going. This is going to happen. The world is changing no matter what. Either we are going to stew and negativity and thus make this a lliving hell that make this road more thorny than it ought to be or we start thinking critically and trying to edify the markets.

God dammit now i want Dunkin Donuts.... And i need to find a Tim Horton's... i think theres one in Worchester

Well we are the one's who buy the games so in a sense its ours.

No need to blashpheme over donuts Ben. :weird: Whatza Tim Horton's?

Not entirely, the concepts and legal rights are there's, but the line blurs when it becomes further engrained in the culture. Back in the day famous works became public-domain over time much slower but did so steadily because they became engrained in the culture's the copyrighted literature were developed therein. Now with subcultures (fandoms) forming rapidly and sticking strong over certain works, well there is more domain slipping in their finger tips at a faster rate. The tug'o'war goes on and either a good balance will be made, we fans get SOPA'd, or we become just as bad as trolling-mobs of uncritcal "fans" unfarily plunder and berate several franchises into oblivion.

#376 Captain Sorzo

Captain Sorzo

    The Captain

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 390 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Richardson, Texas

Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:40 PM

Well we are the one's who buy the games so in a sense its ours.

 

The consumers aren't the ones working for thousands of hours year after year, writing every line of code and modeling every single polygon. Take it from someone who has struggled through a number of programming classes and spent the past month and a half on his first character model: It's hard work. Games are built on a foundation of sweat and tears; in no way do a few dollars and hours of play give the consumer ownership over the work.



#377 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:47 PM

Well we are the one's who buy the games so in a sense its ours.

 
The consumers aren't the ones working for thousands of hours year after year, writing every line of code and modeling every single polygon. Take it from someone who has struggled through a number of programming classes and spent the past month and a half on his first character model: It's hard work. Games are built on a foundation of sweat and tears; in no way do a few dollars and hours of play give the consumer ownership over the work.

Exactly. I know the feeling. On the other side of the coin, consumers clock in a lot of time and love in games like ME and then...some moron in a suit makes a dumb, money hungry call and blows it for both sides.

#378 RedAuthar

RedAuthar

    The Spambot Killer.

  • Admins
  • 37,785 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Knothole

Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:16 PM

 

 

Well we are the one's who buy the games so in a sense its ours.

 
The consumers aren't the ones working for thousands of hours year after year, writing every line of code and modeling every single polygon. Take it from someone who has struggled through a number of programming classes and spent the past month and a half on his first character model: It's hard work. Games are built on a foundation of sweat and tears; in no way do a few dollars and hours of play give the consumer ownership over the work.

Exactly. I know the feeling. On the other side of the coin, consumers clock in a lot of time and love in games like ME and then...some moron in a suit makes a dumb, money hungry call and blows it for both sides.

 

To be fair though, if that's the story he wanted to tell, you can't blame him for writing it in.  

 

Now he can't complain if we don't like it, but he has the right to ruin his franchise if he wants to. 



#379 TheRedStranger

TheRedStranger

    The Soothsayer of Aeons.

  • Scribes of Mobius
  • 1,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lurking in The Forbidden Zone

Posted 16 November 2013 - 11:56 AM

 

 

 

Well we are the one's who buy the games so in a sense its ours.

 
The consumers aren't the ones working for thousands of hours year after year, writing every line of code and modeling every single polygon. Take it from someone who has struggled through a number of programming classes and spent the past month and a half on his first character model: It's hard work. Games are built on a foundation of sweat and tears; in no way do a few dollars and hours of play give the consumer ownership over the work.

Exactly. I know the feeling. On the other side of the coin, consumers clock in a lot of time and love in games like ME and then...some moron in a suit makes a dumb, money hungry call and blows it for both sides.

 

To be fair though, if that's the story he wanted to tell, you can't blame him for writing it in.  

 

Now he can't complain if we don't like it, but he has the right to ruin his franchise if he wants to. 

 

 

Who is "he?"



#380 Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

    Everybody's Favorite Uncle ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Moderators
  • 12,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lowell, Massachusetts

Posted 16 November 2013 - 01:25 PM

My guess Flynn or Penders


Some say that he knows 2 facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong. And that 61 years ago he accidentally introduced Her Majesty The Queen to a Greek racialist. All we know is, I'm going to the tower now to have my head cut off, and he is called The Stig.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users