The Great Continuity Debate: A tale of false pride
For the longest time and for many people it's been difficult enjoying Sonic. If you can't enjoy "true" SEGA characters or stoyline you're not a true Sonic fan. The truth is, is that as long as you can appreciate the idea of Sonic at some point in his life saving a bunch of woodland animals from an evil dude, you're a Sonic fan and you've essentially been following the mythos accurately the whole time. Spinoff stories such as SatAM, STC, the SoJ (SEGA of Japan) games of today and yesterday, etc have all been expansions of this concept.
One of the problems with the Sonic fandom is that many members of it try to impose the concept of one story being true among the many that make his up his franchise. This is often done with the intent to justify/prove the superiority of the present games’ storyline, these games being an extension of the Japanese storyline from the early genesis days (something to keep in mind for later). Due to many of these kinds of fans known as SoJ purists, there is strong pressure aimed at many fans stating that you simply aren't "allowed" to, for example, see a group of Freedom Fighters in Knothole Village as equally canon as whatever goes on in the present games’ storyline.
So why do purists hold their story in such high regard? Many of them do so because they feel the Japanese story was first and therefore true, while everything American or European were knockoff storylines of what Japan established. To them, people working under SEGA of Japan were the only creators of Sonic while thoe working under the other branches did nothing to create the character. Some might even go as far as say he was created by only one person (Yuji Naka). This attitude is especially problematic because it isn't even supported by the information we have today. It would be one thing if this sense of pride could still be supported by information we presently have. But what bothers me is how little of their reasoning is actually supported.
At first glance the belief they hold sounds perfectly coherent and feasible. Purists will often start off by saying the game's storyline has always been the canon because it came first and every other Sonic storyline like the comics or cartoons derives from it. While this might be an adequate way of defining canon if there was only 1 storyline for the early games, there have actually been at least two storylines within the games themselves since the early genesis days: one for the west and one for Japan. According to former SEGA staff member, Dean Sitton, "each of these fictions has a life of its own ...which is pointed out well in the history threads here... there’s soa [American game story] … the original Japanese game and uk game versions." Point being, that the US game storyline and the Japanese storyline are just that: two distinct stories, with the modern games being a derivative if not a direct continuation of the Japanese storyline. Meanwhile stories like SatAM and (early) Archie comics were derivatives of the American gaming storyline (AGS).
SoJ purists who are aware of the existence of two game storylines (The UK being essentially the same story as the AGS) tend to say that the Japanese story was the first of the gaming storylines and that the American storyline is simply a localization of the Japanese game, so that the Japanese story remains the “truest”. Japan purists sometimes even make the analogy of the AGS' relationship with the Japanese story to an American dubbing company that alters Japanese fiction for American audiences. However the analogy of a dubbing company is faulty for a number of reasons. Dubbing companies have lots of exposure to the Japanese source material when formulating how to tell essentially the same story to a different culture.
When SoA developed Sonic's storyline however, there was no such thing as "localizing" according to Dean Sitton. As a matter of fact, he goes further to add "there was little to no exposure to the original Japanese fiction at that time." At that point, the "original fiction" from Japan laid out by Ohshima featured Sonic as a party animal in a rock band with a very attractive human and assertive girlfriend (Madonna) as the Sonic GameTap retrospective reveals. Now, that sounds nothing like the information in early Soa Sonic bibles where Sonic had to save woodland creatures from a scientist gone evil due to a freak accident.
The irony is that if you look at the foundation Sonic 1's story provides in both versions, most of what made it reflects SoA's ideas with some expanding ideas added to the Japanese storyline. Neither version though contain the premise about a rock band or a human girlfriend inside the game itself, suggesting that the original Japanese story was something of an afterthought as platformers with deep storylines were rare at the time. Yes while ideas like Amy (who seems inspired by Madonna), were added eventually to both storylines I’m discussing the initial mythos outlined in Sonic one that would be the foundation for everything else to come. At best it’s possible the story might’ve been collaboration between both sides at the start, but from what information we have now the story from the US is reflected in Sonic 1’s basic premise and not SoJ’s idea.
At this point some SoJ purists might still keep thinking that the Japanese story has some sort of major precedence over the American story because according to them, they were solely responsible for designing the character and crafting the original Sonic 1 which Americans made the original story off of. Frankly, even if they were solely responsible for programming the game and designing the character, it doesn't change the fact that both sides were greatly influenced by American ideas for the story and if we're discussing which story is true and who made the premises that even SoJ followed, then it's best to evaluate who originally created those premises.
Still if one were to go that route, Sitton's commentary again mentions that there were 2 producers from SoA and "one was back n forth between Japan working closely with sonic team to craft the game". Other noteworthy members in SoA included project Manager Madeline Schroeder who revealed in a GameTap retrospective that she and other unaccredited American artists helped softened up Sonic's appearance a lot and so indeed helped to design and as she says it "define" him. What leads to the misunderstanding is that most people will only give credit to Naoto Ohshima for designing Sonic without knowing Sonic's design was ultimately a collaborative effort.
So then we reach perhaps one of the final reasons for SoJ purism. The idea that SoJ made most of the major Sonic titles, even if the original Sonic 1 was a collaborative effort. Available information however does not support this. Sonic 1 was a collaborative effort by both branches, and Sonic 2 and 3&K were developed by STI.
Sonic 2:
This won't even need too much digging into by me. Sonic 2 is known to be an STI creation. Japanese purists usually do not know or cover up this little fact by placing emphasis on where many of the individuals had came from before they'd worked for STI (because they’d been working for SoJ). Another way they cover it up is to place emphasize many members' Japanese ethnicity. However, at the time of the game's creation Tim Skelly notes that they :
" were all STI. At the time Naka was an outcast from SEGA Japan. He wouldn't have been working for any SEGA division anywhere if Mark Cerney hadn't intervened. However, that doesn't mean that there wasn't a split. Mostly it just involved the usual difficulties of working with talented creators."
The fact remains that STI is American. If a former Nintendo employee made a Sonic game as a member of STI it is still an STI game. It is not a Nintendo product. The same logic applies here. Sonic 2 was therefore an American product and even with the various backgrounds of the developers a good number of Americans helped to develop the game.
Sonic 3 &K:
Sonic 3&K were also created under the STI division of SoA. It is also therefore an American product. However the division chose mostly STI members of Japanese nationality to develop Sonic 3, while Sonic Spinball was the primary project for most developers with American roots. This was done because according to Mark Cerny, "there were language problems and cultural problems too". That shouldn't suggest however that they didn't work under STI which was stil an American division or that there was no one of American nationality to provide a helping hand. There were simply far fewer members of American nationality who had any involvement on this project than Sonic 2 and some weren't credited.
For example, many of the music composers (famously including Michael Jackson) were of American nationality. Paul Rioux was part of the Executive management while Roger Hector and Diane Fornasier were executive coordinators. Hector described his contributions as helping Naka to formulate ideas for the game. Adrian Stephens is also an unaccredited developer who helped to create the physics that would be used. Naka and Stephens were also said to have had a particularly good relationship even though Naka was hesitant to include many Americans in on the development process.
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The Great Continuity Debate: A Tale Of False Pride
Started by
Guest_Miko_*
, Jan 26 2010 01:31 PM
13 replies to this topic
#2
Cheezmatt
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Posted 26 January 2010 - 11:49 PM
TLDR: Sonic purists are morons.
Aussie #3
#3
Ratty Randnums
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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:17 AM
I agree.
"I really think of life as a great expression of joy. And if you take yourself seriously you're going to be defeated I'm afraid.
...Maybe that is the whole recipe of life, is to be in on the joke. Because life is a joke and if you're not in on it you're out.
But if you're in on it, you can make it." - Vincent Price
"What have you got to lose? You know you come from nothing you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"
- Eric Idle
...Maybe that is the whole recipe of life, is to be in on the joke. Because life is a joke and if you're not in on it you're out.
But if you're in on it, you can make it." - Vincent Price
"What have you got to lose? You know you come from nothing you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"
- Eric Idle
#4
The Man
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Posted 28 January 2010 - 11:58 PM
Based on all the experiences out there is it possible for anyone to have a truly objective view of the Sonic subject?
I saw the games as a kid, the show as a teen, and the debates and fanfics as an adult. In some way I still enjoy all three but the easiest part of any debate is to pick it apart to justify one idea over the other.
In terms of Sonic SatAM I'd sing Soul Sister. 'A game show love connection.'
I saw the games as a kid, the show as a teen, and the debates and fanfics as an adult. In some way I still enjoy all three but the easiest part of any debate is to pick it apart to justify one idea over the other.
In terms of Sonic SatAM I'd sing Soul Sister. 'A game show love connection.'
#5
BlazeyBakeneko
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Posted 05 February 2010 - 11:51 AM
I'll admit that I still kinda miss the "Kintobor had an accident and became Robotnik" back story. It was my first exposure to Sonic, story wise, and I was left metaphorically scratching my head at first when that origin wasn't used for SatAM or Archie.
#6
Chaosmaster8753
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Posted 06 February 2010 - 05:48 PM
And we should care about this, why?
#7
Guest_Miko_*
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Posted 06 February 2010 - 06:05 PM
Seeing as other people have showed some interest in the matter, if you don't find it interesting fine. But you don't offer anything to the discussion except baiting to those who were interested. I'd suggest not bothering in any future topics if all you're going to do is bait by trying to be a smart alic. A week after the topic got here I might add. Some people get flack for not liking Sonic interpreted a certain way. And many of them will wind up being SoA fans since SoJ purits outnumber SoA/SatAM purists generally. There's some relatively new information from people who worked from SoA at the begginning like Dave Sitton and Madeline Schroeder that really show that America was also a big part of the development of Sonic making 'canon wars' moot. some will care obviously and some people don't. I never said this would be of applicable interest to anyone but seldom is a topic.
#8
Valerie Valens
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Posted 07 February 2010 - 04:02 PM
QUOTE (Chaosmaster8753 @ Feb 7 2010, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And we should care about this, why?
I don't know, it's obviously worth discussing about if there are other replies to it.
#9
Chaosmaster8753
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Posted 07 February 2010 - 04:34 PM
QUOTE (Miko @ Feb 6 2010, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seeing as other people have showed some interest in the matter, if you don't find it interesting fine. But you don't offer anything to the discussion except baiting to those who were interested. I'd suggest not bothering in any future topics if all you're going to do is bait by trying to be a smart alic. A week after the topic got here I might add. Some people get flack for not liking Sonic interpreted a certain way. And many of them will wind up being SoA fans since SoJ purits outnumber SoA/SatAM purists generally. There's some relatively new information from people who worked from SoA at the begginning like Dave Sitton and Madeline Schroeder that really show that America was also a big part of the development of Sonic making 'canon wars' moot. some will care obviously and some people don't. I never said this would be of applicable interest to anyone but seldom is a topic.
I thought I remembered hearing that SEGA of America wasn't even fond of Sonic at first.
#10
Guest_Viuely_*
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Posted 07 February 2010 - 04:40 PM
QUOTE (Chaosmaster8753 @ Feb 7 2010, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Miko @ Feb 6 2010, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seeing as other people have showed some interest in the matter, if you don't find it interesting fine. But you don't offer anything to the discussion except baiting to those who were interested. I'd suggest not bothering in any future topics if all you're going to do is bait by trying to be a smart alic. A week after the topic got here I might add. Some people get flack for not liking Sonic interpreted a certain way. And many of them will wind up being SoA fans since SoJ purits outnumber SoA/SatAM purists generally. There's some relatively new information from people who worked from SoA at the begginning like Dave Sitton and Madeline Schroeder that really show that America was also a big part of the development of Sonic making 'canon wars' moot. some will care obviously and some people don't. I never said this would be of applicable interest to anyone but seldom is a topic.
I thought I remembered hearing that SEGA of America wasn't even fond of Sonic at first.
No, SEGA of America wasn't fond of the japanese's concpept ideas for what Sonic's general storyline should be. SOJ wanted Sonic to have fangs, be in a rock band, and have a human girlfriend named Maddonna *shudders*. If Unleashed, and 06 were any indicator, it was a good call.
#11
Mithrandir
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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:54 AM
It really goes to show how badly SoJ has treated Sonic as a property. Horrific game after horrific game, needless new characters at every turn that are simply "kewl" because they're drawn to look sleek, and a near-completely unsustainable hero/villain dynamic with Sonic, who never, EVER breaks a sweat or loses his smirk, and Eggman, a bumbling, harmless oaf.
One could argue that the Mario series works despite Mario being just a happy-go-lucky plumber and Bowser being a comedic villain in many games (e.g. the GBA/DS Mario and Luigi games), but the Mario franchise fully embraces it's silliness and cheesiness, whereas the Sonic franchise tries to straddle the fence, from insulting the intelligence of any fan above the age of 10 to then trying to have dramatic, world-threatening storylines and other nonsense like Sonic falling in love with Lacey Chabert in that God awful '06 game.
What really helped make Sonic unique and popular in the 90's was that each branch of Sega got to tailor his story and personality to fit the market they were selling to. They even got to go so far with Sega of America as to give TWO American versions of Sonic, one appealing to the old slapstick cartoon tradition of American animation, and one appealing to American sci-fi/adventure story lovers.
Once the Dreamcast came along and Sonic just HAD to start talking, and start interacting with dozens of useless characters, suddenly, things had to be streamlined.
Again, look at Nintendo; for YEARS, people have been clamoring for them to "tidy up" the Zelda timeline, to let Link speak, blah blah blah, yet they continue to refuse. Why? Because the entire concept of Zelda is to not have it fit into one group of people's mold and ideal for what it should be. It's supposed to have aspects open to everyone's individual interpretations.
Now, Sonic as a franchise never had to go THAT far, but the uniqueness of the character and the series died with the arrival of Sonic Adventure.
One could argue that the Mario series works despite Mario being just a happy-go-lucky plumber and Bowser being a comedic villain in many games (e.g. the GBA/DS Mario and Luigi games), but the Mario franchise fully embraces it's silliness and cheesiness, whereas the Sonic franchise tries to straddle the fence, from insulting the intelligence of any fan above the age of 10 to then trying to have dramatic, world-threatening storylines and other nonsense like Sonic falling in love with Lacey Chabert in that God awful '06 game.
What really helped make Sonic unique and popular in the 90's was that each branch of Sega got to tailor his story and personality to fit the market they were selling to. They even got to go so far with Sega of America as to give TWO American versions of Sonic, one appealing to the old slapstick cartoon tradition of American animation, and one appealing to American sci-fi/adventure story lovers.
Once the Dreamcast came along and Sonic just HAD to start talking, and start interacting with dozens of useless characters, suddenly, things had to be streamlined.
Again, look at Nintendo; for YEARS, people have been clamoring for them to "tidy up" the Zelda timeline, to let Link speak, blah blah blah, yet they continue to refuse. Why? Because the entire concept of Zelda is to not have it fit into one group of people's mold and ideal for what it should be. It's supposed to have aspects open to everyone's individual interpretations.
Now, Sonic as a franchise never had to go THAT far, but the uniqueness of the character and the series died with the arrival of Sonic Adventure.
#12
Chaosmaster8753
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Posted 12 March 2010 - 08:36 PM
QUOTE (Mithrandir @ Mar 12 2010, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Once the Dreamcast came along and Sonic just HAD to start talking, and start interacting with dozens of useless characters, suddenly, things had to be streamlined.
SatAM did that too.
#13
Mithrandir
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Posted 14 March 2010 - 11:09 PM
QUOTE (Chaosmaster8753 @ Mar 13 2010, 05:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Mithrandir @ Mar 12 2010, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Once the Dreamcast came along and Sonic just HAD to start talking, and start interacting with dozens of useless characters, suddenly, things had to be streamlined.
SatAM did that too.
I'm talking more about the video games.
In terms of Sonic "speaking", back in the early 90's there were plenty of different comics, cartoons, etc., all with him speaking and interacting with the world around him.
My point was that the video games being as open-ended as they were in terms of characterization (not much beyond "Sonic! He's got an attitude!" :-P ) meant that different regions and writers could have their own interpretation of the character. The Archie comic co-existed with the Fleetway one, SatAM and AoStH co-existed, there was the Sonic anime flick, etc.
However, once Sonic Adventure came along, it all had to be streamlined under Sega of Japan's complete control, and the vast bulk of all Sonic media must cow-tow much, much more to what SoJ deems fit for the characters.
#14
The Man
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Posted 18 March 2010 - 09:55 PM
This topic is a nice tutorial of the characters history. One wonders if most parents care and simply view it as something to park their kids in front of while making dinner.
One also wonders if one franchise could even meet the expectations of those whose own ideas could exceed the show?
One also wonders if one franchise could even meet the expectations of those whose own ideas could exceed the show?
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