93 replies to this topic

[Cheezmatt]

It's cool that Eggman can successfully pull off a “nightmarishly creepy” demeanor…

…when he wants to.

I'd call it a failure of writing actually, the equivalent of a Batman film switching between Heath Ledger's Joker and Cesar Romero's Joker at random intervals throughout the movie. A trainwreck in every respect and demeaning the purpose of both.

[masterblaster]

it's a real shame flynn keeps telling us that robo robotnik and Julian are the same, it's real waste of world and character building by ignoring the fact that they are different.

Do not confuse Archie Julian with SATAM Julian...

The SATAM "like" Archie Julian was not always this...



Up until End Game this was the Archie Julian we were treated with...



The evil, creepy Julian of SATAM was never "that" prominent in Archie. I think that there were 10 issues TOPS that SATAM Robotnik was in full force. The rest of the comic has been a blend of "AoStH and Sega Sonic" Robotnik.

Even then, Sega's rendition of Robotnik has "always" been a sort of "AoStH and SATAM" blend anyway. Archie Robotnik and Sega Robotnik are basically the same person. The only real noticable change was that Archie Robotnik lost weight and changed clothes...

I'd call it a failure of writing actually, the equivalent of a Batman film switching between Heath Ledger's Joker and Cesar Romero's Joker at random intervals throughout the movie.

What if you like both Ledger's and Romero's jokers?

Romero Eggman...



...Ledger Eggman.



I may overtly favor the Ledger/SATAM Robotnik...but I can admire Romero/Archie Robotnik for who he is.

Even when Sega had "officially" retired SATAM Robotnik, I still liked the "Robotnik" character. And since Sega retired the "short, fat, black eyed" Classic Sonic...does that mean you can't like Modern Sonic with his long legs and green eyes? When both versions were Sonic?

I liked this issue because it had great "freedom fighting" moments in it. The classic throwbacks to the Sonic 2 animal capsules, the tree stump, evil/creepy Eggman, it was all good.

What about "Legionization"?

The fact that Archie Eggman rips out your guts and stuffs your insides with eletronics...with NO anaesthetics!!! How is that not cool? That is equal to, if not better, then Roboticization and is clearly the biproduct of alittle SATAM mixed in with Archie's Eggman.

And if anyone has read the issue's Sonic Grams, you would know that Archie is being flooded with Sonic/Sally fan mail ever since Ian has introduced Khan into the mix.

With creepy Eggman, throwbacks to '93, Freedom Fighting, and Rotor being "almost" ruined by Snively...there were alot of things to like about this issue.

211 is when the arc wraps up...if it was anything like 210...it should be really good.

[spoonfullvon]

hoo boy where do i begin. first off let me begin by saying no offense to another bumbleking forumer.masterblaster first off the early archie comics are under what could be called ambiguously cannon. the early comic probably happened in a way, just not in overtly humorous way, which means that robotnik is the same as the archie version. look up broad strokes on tv tropes if you will.


second flynn has said that he thinks that the archie universe is the same as the satam one in terms as where they stand in the multiverse. so by saying this and having eggman be a joke of a villian and then saying that they are same as the satam , you
are greatly raping on the on the legacy of satam by getting rid of 80 percent of the show's strength of having a strong, intimidating, commanding villain.

third, you like allot of bumble kingers are way too accepting of game elements, without really understanding the impact of said addition to the established continuity.

[John Roberts]

The evil, creepy Julian of SATAM was never "that" prominent in Archie. I think that there were 10 issues TOPS that SATAM Robotnik was in full force. The rest of the comic has been a blend of "AoStH and Sega Sonic" Robotnik.

Even then, Sega's rendition of Robotnik has "always" been a sort of "AoStH and SATAM" blend anyway. Archie Robotnik and Sega Robotnik are basically the same person. The only real noticable change was that Archie Robotnik lost weight and changed clothes...

Yes. And for the record I laughed my arse off with early Archie Robotnik. It was funny.

But. Current 'Eggman' Robotnik was originally 'Robo' Robotnik, and he had none of those earlier slapstick character traits. In fact one would say he was more darker and sinister than the SatAM counterpart. And then he became Eggman, and the unfunny silliness began.

[Lord Exor]

Even then, Sega's rendition of Robotnik has "always" been a sort of "AoStH and SATAM" blend anyway. Archie Robotnik and Sega Robotnik are basically the same person. The only real noticable change was that Archie Robotnik lost weight and changed clothes...

Everyone seems to confuse this with a character trait that defines Archie Robotnik, even Ian. This wasn't really the case. The tone of the comic simply shifted, and all the characters were made silly whenever the comic published stories that emulated the slapstick comedy of AoStH. If Ian wants to consider this a part of character canon, then he should do the same with every single character.

[masterblaster]

hoo boy where do i begin. first off let me begin by saying no offense to another bumbleking forumer.

Hey man, I’m here as a FUSer. I’m flying no bumbleking flag whatsoever. Just a regular SATAM fan like everyone else here. :^)

first off the early archie comics are under what could be called ambiguously cannon. the early comic probably happened in a way, just not in overtly humorous way, which means that robotnik is the same as the archie version

Yes and no. Satam Julian is Satam Julian. Archie Julian is not SATAM Julian, but was based off him. There are very distinct and yet very familiar traits about both of them. Archie Julian is now Archie Eggman, in looks and mannerisms. But this new change isn’t that far fetched from what was established before. But then the character design change was mandated by SEGA.

= / =

=

so by saying this and having eggman be a joke of a villian and then saying that they are same as the satam , you are greatly raping on the on the legacy of satam by getting rid of 80 percent of the show's strength of having a strong, intimidating, commanding villain.

That is entirely debatable...Current Archie Eggman verses SATAM Robotnik and if they are jokes or not.

SATAM Robotnik couldn’t find Knothole. Archie Eggman found it “multiple” times and destroyed it. SATAM Robotnik never killed anyone. Archie Eggman has “at least” two genocides under his belt. SATAM Robotnik built the Doomsday Device. Archie Eggman built the Death Egg. SATAM Robotnik couldn’t defeat Sonic. Archie Eggman killed his Sonic before reverting to the prime universe.

SATAM Robotnik always presented himself in a really evil, creepy demeanor. Archie Eggman not so much. But SATAM Robotnik's actions were pretty mild compared to Archie Eggman’s. This doesn’t make either one of them a “joke”, they’re both strong, intimidating villains. In similar and different ways.

third, you like allot of bumble kingers are way too accepting of game elements, without really understanding the impact of said addition to the established continuity.

It’s not like we (as readers) even have a choice when it comes to the “game elements”. Sega goes to Archie, “Give Sonic green eyes, make Robotnik tall and thinner. Do it now.” And Archie “has” to comply. Basically being given a square peg to fit into a round hole.

Archie has fumbled this task in the past, the events leading up to and after the “Sonic Adventure” arc are evidence of this. The new mandates by Sega do not cut SATAM any slack whatsoever. This cannot be helped. However, the SATAM like elements are very dominate within the comic despite this. Archie has “a lot” of leeway when it comes to crafting stories, more so then the “Sonic X” book.

So given the circumstances…Archie is fairing a lot better then if the SATAM stuff was axed completely and Sonic X was the new default standard. The SATAM legacy lives on in the comic…

But. Current 'Eggman' Robotnik was originally 'Robo' Robotnik, and he had none of those earlier slapstick character traits. In fact one would say he was more darker and sinister than the SatAM counterpart. And then he became Eggman, and the unfunny silliness began.

The change to Eggman was SEGA’s doing and couldn’t be helped. The roller coaster of “silliness” to “evil” threat level is a character trait of Sega Eggman. Sonic Unleashed Eggman blew up the world, but is seen munching down on a sub sandwich. That’s silly, and evil…at the same time. This is just to bring his character closer to the game counterpart. But currently the whole “egg grapes” and “Legionization" thing just goes to show that Eggman is STILL very much a threat and it’s not all fun and games with him. And that’s the Archie/SATAM Eggman shining through.

Do you think that Sega Eggman alone, would torture and kill his enemies like the Archie one does?

But the change to “absolute” Eggman didn’t “have” to happen. If Ken just kept Julian alive we would have had Julian in an “Eggman” outfit…much like how Sonic the Comic did it when they had to “Eggman-ize” their AoStH Robotnik. Which would be EVEN more threatening, IMHO.

If Ian wants to consider this a part of character canon, then he should do the same with every single character.

This would be bad. Reverting the comic back to it’s early slapstick/AoStH days. I don’t see why it has to be one extreme for another. Archie is a nice blend between Sega, SATAM, and AoStH universes. Just because Eggman is a little more crazier then Julian, it shouldn’t rule him out as a creditable threat altogether.

Then again, Ledger’s Joker was more crazier then Romero’s and Nicholson’s Joker. Nolan’s Batman wouldn’t kill like Burton’s Batman. Does that make Nolan’s Batman any less a creditable hero then Burton’s?


I didn’t mean for this to post to go on as long as it has, but I will end on a very positive note:



My entry for the design Team Sonic/Sally logo challenge in 210’s Sonic Grams…

Sonic n Sally 4 life :^)

[Cheezmatt]

What if you like both Ledger's and Romero's jokers?

Perhaps you misunderstood. Both interpretations have their place, in light of their series' respective tones. Is one superior to the other? In this case it's irrelevant. What I'm describing is two contrasting portrayls of the same character in the same film. Romero fans would cringe as their slapstick icon suddenly performed shocking feats of violence, while Ledger fans thrilled by the crazed terrorist would get a rude awakening when he starts acting like a complete buffoon. Note that there's a difference between black humor and cartoon camp, as if it needs to be said.

Archie's Eggman embodies this sort of schizophrenic writing. This "Legionization" business further illustrates the point; to paraphrase a friend, one minute Eggman could be a clownish oaf, the next he's butchering thousands. Apparently perfectly within character. There's a reason few villains are written the way Eggman is.

Legionization also follows a common trend of hack writing: in order to sell a new threat, the writer declares it to be much worse than the original menace. Not only is this often blatantly dishonest, it demeans the original's legacy and the backstory as a whole. In another fine example, the characters sometimes remark that they had a much easier time with Robotnik Prime than the new threat of the Iron Dominion. Right. This sort of move is amateurish, cheap and entirely predictable.

[spoonfullvon]

What if you like both Ledger's and Romero's jokers?

Perhaps you misunderstood. Both interpretations have their place, in light of their series' respective tones. Is one superior to the other? In this case it's irrelevant. What I'm describing is two contrasting portrayls of the same character in the same film. Romero fans would cringe as their slapstick icon suddenly performed shocking feats of violence, while Ledger fans thrilled by the crazed terrorist would get a rude awakening when he starts acting like a complete buffoon. Note that there's a difference between black humor and cartoon camp, as if it needs to be said.

Archie's Eggman embodies this sort of schizophrenic writing. This "Legionization" business further illustrates the point; to paraphrase a friend, one minute Eggman could be a clownish oaf, the next he's butchering thousands. Apparently perfectly within character. There's a reason few villains are written the way Eggman is.

Legionization also follows a common trend of hack writing: in order to sell a new threat, the writer declares it to be much worse than the original menace. Not only is this often blatantly dishonest, it demeans the original's legacy and the backstory as a whole. In another fine example, the characters sometimes remark that they had a much easier time with Robotnik Prime than the new threat of the Iron Dominion. Right. This sort of move is amateurish, cheap and entirely predictable.

did they really say that the iron queen was a bigger threat then julian ever was?

uhhhhhhh................

this is just more evidence that flynn doesn't see the cast as people, just objects as a mean to a pay check.

yes, this person you've been fighting for a week at tops is tougher then someone you fought tooth and nail since youth.

[furrykef]

The SATAM "like" Archie Julian was not always this...



Up until End Game this was the Archie Julian we were treated with...

Nah. Robotnik had been his SatAM-like self throughout around #20 through #50. His comedic version did often surface (especially in the 20s), but still, the comedic Robotnik had become the exception, not the rule.


Oh, and pet peeve:

Archie Eggman found it “multiple” times and destroyed it. SATAM Robotnik never killed anyone. Archie Eggman has “at least” two genocides under his belt.

Quotation marks are not emphasis markers. Sorry. ^^;

[Lord Exor]

This would be bad. Reverting the comic back to it’s early slapstick/AoStH days. I don’t see why it has to be one extreme for another. Archie is a nice blend between Sega, SATAM, and AoStH universes. Just because Eggman is a little more crazier then Julian, it shouldn’t rule him out as a creditable threat altogether.

You missed my point, although I will admit to enjoying extremes. My point was that Robotnik Prime shifted characterizations because the overarching tone of the stories shifted with it--this was in no way meant to indicate that Robotnik possessed a dual personality, as Ian has interpreted it.

Ian's belief is that this dichotomic "portrayal" corroborates his decision to write Eggman as a character incessantly vacillating between farcical absurdity and utter depravity. If he swears by this logic, then he should apply the same treatment to the other characters.

SATAM Robotnik couldn’t find Knothole. Archie Eggman found it “multiple” times and destroyed it. SATAM Robotnik never killed anyone. Archie Eggman has “at least” two genocides under his belt. SATAM Robotnik built the Doomsday Device. Archie Eggman built the Death Egg. SATAM Robotnik couldn’t defeat Sonic. Archie Eggman killed his Sonic before reverting to the prime universe.

Eggman is not Robotnik Prime, so they do not share the same timeline or accomplishments following the coup d'etat. They are two separate characters, just like the Cyborg Sonic from Eggman's zone isn't Sonic Prime. I can't count how many times I've connected my face with my palm upon hearing people, including Ian, confuse the two.

Archie Eggman killed his Sonic before reverting to the prime universe.

That isn't an accomplishment at all. Obviously Eggman's version of Sonic was far weaker than Sonic Prime.

[masterblaster]

This "Legionization" business further illustrates the point; to paraphrase a friend, one minute Eggman could be a clownish oaf, the next he's butchering thousands. Apparently perfectly within character. There's a reason few villains are written the way Eggman is.

I just thought that Legionization was the next logical step in the cyborg army way of things. Natural progression. Much how we had the standard gray Swatbots. Then it was the combots. Then it was the Shadow Bots. Then it was Shadow Bots in mech walkers. Roboticization evolved in the comic as well. When it first appeared, it was a standard process. Then it evolved into the “brain burn through” modes, then eventually the Roboticizer got so powerful that Eggman could use it with a simple touch.

What does Eggman have at this point as a weapon? His city is in shambles, his robot army is gone. Roboticization doesn’t work anymore. He’s down to a rag-tag hoodie army with poor organizational abilities (namely Lien-Da fault). So his next logical step would be to start drafting civilians to partake in his evil conquest. What other options does he have?

Cramming little animals into robotic devices and having them attack Sonic?

In another fine example, the characters sometimes remark that they had a much easier time with Robotnik Prime than the new threat of the Iron Dominion.

The Iron Dominion steamrolled over New Mobotropolis in just 8 issues. It took Eggman 50 issues to steamroll over Knothole. It took another 125 to flatten it completely.

Just sayin…

Eggman is not Robotnik Prime, so they do not share the same timeline or accomplishments following the coup d'etat.

If my memory serves me right, Eggman (aka Robo Robotnik mach two) is identical to Robotnik Prime. They are the same up until the final battle. Ian has stated that there were two Robo Robotniks.

I shall answer this with a sense of authority since I've just been going through this. It's especially confusing since both Ken and Karl offered their own versions of this, neither of which are accurate.

There are TWO Robo-Robotniks.

RR#1 showed up in the "Night of a Thousand Sonic" story. His nemesis was Cyber-Sonic, he built the Giant Borg, and he got turned to scrap. The pieces were handed out among the Sonics and spread throughout the multiverse.

RR#2 came from a M25YL-variant. We know this because Sonic is all fleshy in his world. RR#2, inspired by Classic Robotnik, found his Zone's piece of the Giant Borg and rebuilt himself. He then conquered his Zone, sent Evil Sonic on that one mission in the Super Specials, and finally came back to Mobius Prime.

This makes the most sense and sets up RR#2 as a diehard force to be reckoned with. He has since evolved into Eggman, but that was a mandate by SEGA.

That isn't an accomplishment at all.

Not an accomplishment? Come on! :^P

He murdered King Sonic! He had kids! I’m pretty sure Eggman killed them and Queen Sally too.

Obviously Eggman's version of Sonic was far weaker than Sonic Prime

Not so…



Here Sonic is clearly defeating his version of Robotnik. Either Robotnik started off a wimp, turned bad@$$ and killed Sonic…or…Sonic started off bad@$$ and turned wimp. Either way, Robo Robotnik comes out on top with the kill count.

Quotation marks are not emphasis markers. Sorry. ^^;

Heh, heh..sorry about that. It’s a habit I have to break. I type fast and just use the “” to emphasize stuff. The [b] and [i] tags are there for a reason. :^P

[Lord Exor]

Provide me with the quote from Ian that states that "Robo-Robotnik II" followed the same exact timeline as Robotnik Prime up until Endgame.
Not that I care what Ian says, but I'd like to see it anyway.

Here Sonic is clearly defeating his version of Robotnik. Either Robotnik started off a wimp, turned bad@$$ and killed Sonic…or…Sonic started off bad@$$ and turned wimp. Either way, Robo Robotnik comes out on top with the kill count.

Clearly not the former. If that were so, then Robo-Robotnik would have steamrolled Sonic upon his arrival to Mobius Prime. Thus, his zone's Sonic was easier to defeat no matter how you slice it.

evil/creepy Eggman, it was all good.

The sequence with Eggman and Snively was the only decently written portion of the issue. Ian actually attempted to get inside the characters' heads rather than simply use them to move the plot along, like he did everywhere else.

[masterblaster]

STH#72 gives about all the in-canon backing I need.

In that issue, Robo-Robotnik / Robotnik mach II / Eggman-to-be pirated the airwaves to tell "The Robotnik Origin Story." This was obviously Julian's history. Given the pomposity of the Robotniks, it makes no sense whatsoever to say Mach II showed anything other than his own origin.

They're the same up to a point. The EndGames played out differently and the futures came to a different head. They act with equal measures of cruelty, cunning and ridiculousness.

Archie Julian = Robo-Robotnik mach two = Archie Eggman

[Lord Exor]

That's absurd, faulty logic. Robo-Robotnik was obviously attempting to pass himself off as Robotnik Prime until his cover was blown, so of course he'd broadcast Robotnik Prime's biography. No offense, but Ian will cobble together any excuse he can to justify and/or canonize his personal bias.

There are several other reasons why this doesn't make sense, and since you love using pictures to illustrate points, I'll indulge in the same practice.


Here we find Dr. Eggman confronted by the future "Destructix". What's this? He needs to search through data files to figure out who Drago Wolf is? What is this blasphemy? I thought he shared the same exact timeline with Robotnik up until the very final act of Endgame! Indeed, I'm fairly certain there are even more instances of quotes like this one, there just aren't any others that immediately come to mind.

Furthermore, if these two were exactly the same "up to a point", then why did Robo-Robotnik need to download the location of the Giant Borg pieces from Robotnik Prime's memory? You mean to tell me Eggman didn't experience the same event beforehand? I guess this counts out E.V.E. zapping our Eggman too. AND GUESS WHAT, this portion of Robotnik's life was also covered in Robo-Robotnik's broadcast biography, further proving my own point. Deary me, it appears reality itself is unraveling around us. Whatever shall we do ?

Even if their origins are the same (birth-coup), their timelines obviously diverge far more than Ian wants to admit because let's face it, he's large and in charge. He can make up whatever canon he feels like, screw logic and continuity!


Edit: Oh right, I just remembered! According to Ian, Eggman seems to think his new look is stylish. If you recall, Robotnik Prime thought Eggman looked like a "boob" when the two met in issue #108. The same exact character having different taste? My head is really hurting at this point.

I'm also amused at how much your opinions have changed over the years, Blaster. At least, ever since Ian arrived.

[John Roberts]

So... Ian is trying to tell us that Robotnik Prime, Robo Robotnik/Eggman all equals out as the exact same Archie Robotnik character, but we have to squint really hard and look at this through an aquarium in order for it to make continuity sense? Sounds like Ian needs to stop reinventing the fucking wheel and just follow the course that has already been well laid out before he arrived.

[Mithrandir]

It's cool that Eggman can successfully pull off a “nightmarishly creepy” demeanor…

…when he wants to.

I'd call it a failure of writing actually, the equivalent of a Batman film switching between Heath Ledger's Joker and Cesar Romero's Joker at random intervals throughout the movie. A trainwreck in every respect and demeaning the purpose of both.

If this were just a recent development that went hand-in-hand with Robotnik's decent into insanity, it'd be more acceptable, but considering it's been this way since around the time they fully got rid of robotization, it's inexcusable.

I'll draw a parallel between this and one of the simplest, most straightforward forms of storytelling there is: professional wrestling...I know, bear with me here for a second.

When you have a bad guy, or "heel", in wrestling, you want him to be consistent. If he's usually portrayed as arrogant, KEEP HIM ARROGANT. Is he violent beyond belief and a force of destruction? Well, you'd better keep him that way, or the instant he shows weakness, it's all over. Is he comedic, always getting his comeuppance and opening his big mouth too much, and getting pounded for it? Then be consistent about it.

Doesn't mean these guys can't have moments where they do something that's over the line, or goes a little bit against character, as long as it builds up to something new/better/necessary/etc.

But if you take a comedic bad guy and suddenly have him devastate the hero without cheating, just beating the living daylights out of him...the crowd won't accept it, because it's not his character.

Really makes you wish they could've kept Julian around, even if they had to introduce Eggman, as well, so they could each represent the different sides/portrayals of the Robotnik character.

[Lord Exor]

But if you take a comedic bad guy and suddenly have him devastate the hero without cheating, just beating the living daylights out of him...the crowd won't accept it, because it's not his character.

You can have a more comedic villain transition into a darker character, as long as it's a logical progression and a permanent alteration.

[masterblaster]

What's this? He needs to search through data files to figure out who Drago Wolf is? What is this blasphemy? I thought he shared the same exact timeline with Robotnik up until the very final act of Endgame!

Total fan speculation

Sonic and the Freedom Fighters of RR MK II’s universe foiled Sally’s assassination attempt and ousted Drago as a traitor before End Game. Julian and Robo Robotnik are the same up until a point. Where that point starts and stops during, before, or after End Game is unknown.

Total fan speculation

RR MK II was a computer at the time. What is to say that during the multiple uploads and downloads to his harddrive a file or two got corrupted? If my memory serves me right, he couldn’t remember where Knothole was after switching to the Eggman body. Sonic, Sally, and Snively planted a virus into Eggman’s computer to prevent him from accessing the location of Knothole.

Furthermore, if these two were exactly the same "up to a point", then why did Robo-Robotnik need to download the location of the Giant Borg pieces from Robotnik Prime's memory? You mean to tell me Eggman didn't experience the same event beforehand?

...Being that he's from an alternate future, I would think it implied that the past is nearly identical.

So the breakdown is more like this:

WHAT COULD BE SAID
Robotnik took over Mobotropolis
Robotnik was kicked out.
Another Robotnik from an alternate future took back a the city that he had conquered in an alternate past but was the same

WHAT IS SO MUCH SIMPLER
Robotnik took over
Robotnik was ousted
Robotnik came back

As I've said repeatedly: Eggman and SatAM-Robotnik have the same past up to a point. So now I can reference past events much more easily. I can talk about Julian and the Great War and The Coup without having to tack on a proviso every time.

The same exact character having different taste?

Is this the same exact evil overlord seen playing golf with Sonic minutes later? :^P

I'm also amused at how much your opinions have changed over the years, Blaster. At least, ever since Ian arrived.

They haven’t changed that much. I really, really, really disliked the direction Ken & Karl were taking the comic. Ian Flynn was the “Hope and Change” the comic desperately needed. Ian delivered “Change”. No doubt about it. That “Hope” is subjective. You either like the changes or you don’t.

Sounds like Ian needs to stop reinventing the fucking wheel and just follow the course that has already been well laid out before he arrived.

I am of the mindset that Ian was handed an utterly useless flat and broken wheel. Repairs had to be made that were neglected under the previous shop owners. Ian’s put in new rotors, brakes, and axle grease into that wheel to keep it running smoothly. He’s even gone in and done suspension work. Now the wheel can spin for another 100,000 miles without having to stop by a service station every time it rolls into a new town or passes a pothole.

Really makes you wish they could've kept Julian around, even if they had to introduce Eggman, as well, so they could each represent the different sides/portrayals of the Robotnik character.

*points the finger at Ken*

He started it!!! If he didn’t kill off the most evil, bad@$$ villian EVER to hit the Sonic Universe…we wouldn’t be having this conversation in the first place!!

And he tried to kill Sally too!!

I can’t even begin to imagine all the wonderfull Sally isn’t Sally/Robo Sally/Robo Sally MK II stories that would have resulted from that scenario if Ken hadn’t been reeled in by SEGA.

[Lord Exor]

...Being that he's from an alternate future, I would think it implied that the past is nearly identical.

So the breakdown is more like this:

WHAT COULD BE SAID
Robotnik took over Mobotropolis
Robotnik was kicked out.
Another Robotnik from an alternate future took back a the city that he had conquered in an alternate past but was the same

WHAT IS SO MUCH SIMPLER
Robotnik took over
Robotnik was ousted
Robotnik came back

As I've said repeatedly: Eggman and SatAM-Robotnik have the same past up to a point. So now I can reference past events much more easily. I can talk about Julian and the Great War and The Coup without having to tack on a proviso every time.

Robo-Robotnik doesn't come from a simple alternative future, he comes from a totally different zone. There was no evidence--in fact, plenty of evidence to the contrary--that Robo-Robotnik shared any history with Robotnik Prime past the coup. This is nothing but a very loose interpretation that glosses over a good deal of previous continuity in order to canonize Ian's beliefs and "smooth the road" for him. You can fanwank* all you want to explain it away, but the fact remains that Ian's interpretation is incongruous with established continuity.

I am of the mindset that Ian was handed an utterly useless flat and broken wheel. Repairs had to be made that were neglected under the previous shop owners. Ian’s put in new rotors, brakes, and axle grease into that wheel to keep it running smoothly. He’s even gone in and done suspension work. Now the wheel can spin for another 100,000 miles without having to stop by a service station every time it rolls into a new town or passes a pothole.

Ian does nothing but introduce retcons in order to fix perceived "problems". Sometimes his retcons are so sloppy, he even retcons himself. One minute he has Eggman puzzle over how members of the future Destructix could have been roboticized again following the Bem encounter, the next he has Eggman call them cheap robot duplicates. There was no logical progression there, just contradictory statements that came from nowhere. Ian should have "fixed" the wheel with coherent development rather than with magic "continuity white-out".

*

Sonic and the Freedom Fighters of RR MK II’s universe foiled Sally’s assassination attempt and ousted Drago as a traitor before End Game. Julian and Robo Robotnik are the same up until a point. Where that point starts and stops during, before, or after End Game is unknown.

We do know though. Eggman outright refers to the events of Endgame as if he were Robotnik Prime, and speaks as if he truly experienced everything that transpired in the Prime timeline. Before that, he would refer to himself as a different entity nearly all the time. A more logical explanation for this would be to say that his insanity is causing him to forget his true identity and is beginning to consider himself the real Robotnik Prime. But no...

RR MK II was a computer at the time. What is to say that during the multiple uploads and downloads to his harddrive a file or two got corrupted?

That's really pushing it. There's no evidence to prove that.

[masterblaster]

This is nothing but a very loose interpretation that glosses over a good deal of previous continuity in order to canonize Ian's beliefs and "smooth the road" for him.

The crux of that argument hinges on the fact that the previous continuity would have to be flawless and or the Golden Standard. If the previous continuity was so intuitive, so easy to understand, it would NEVER have to be changed in the first place.

Is that right? Is that a correct assumption for the case of “Leave it alone, don’t change it. It's fine as is.”?

This is my opinion, but Ken was FAR from the Golden Stardard…hence this mess:





Let's see...we have...RoboRobotnik: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10….

This is FAR from the easy, intuitive, golden standard of a good continuity. Ken and Karl were very inconsistent when it came to RoboRobotnik. The entire RoboRobotnik saga is a convoluted mess and a knot that is hopelessly tangled with other knots. Ian is trying to “smooth the road” not just for him, but for the other readers, new and old who travel down the Archie Sonic highway every month.

I have every issue Archie published and yet I STILL don’t know the entire story behind the multiple RoboRobotniks and Ken’s plans for them. Especially the large mega one, with the freaky arm, they were just one of many plotpoints Ken never answered or referenced again.

Ian does nothing but introduce retcons in order to fix perceived "problems".

If there was just ONE Robo Robotnik from another zone, just ONE and not two (like Ian has pointed out), and this one faked being Prime to attack Sonic…



He is dead…he’s been dead since Sonic#19. An entirely new, and second RoboRobotnik appeared in Sonic#22. And he's been going strong ever since...

I’m going to close with a quote from Ian, and he sums it up quite well…

From this point, it's simply a matter of personal opinion. And for every "Eggman's a weenie" there's an "Eggman's the best yet!" For every "There's different!" there's a "They're similar enough so it's fine."

So I'm going with what I think is the best for the book on a whole. I'm sorry, but feelings are going to be hurt.

Eggman is the evolution of Julian, and that's that.