198 replies to this topic

[Tristan Palmgren]

"Well, look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?"
"Big damn heroes, sir!"
"Ain't we just?"

[Gojira007]

Love Bunnie's hero shot. Thank you for making them matter more than just 'chicks that get captured until the man saves them'. A good page.

"Well, look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?"
"Big damn heroes, sir!"
"Ain't we just?"

I too love that little panel of our two heroines coming to the rescue. The whole page came out quite nicely, but that shot in particular may go down as one of my favorites of the arc.

EDIT: HA! Tristan and I had the exact same idea.

[John Roberts]

I suppose it's stretching it a bit too far hoping Antoine is hanging above, looking down below and aiming Vera at Snively and Naugus:
"Man's lookin' to kill some folk. So really, it's his will y'all should worry about thwarting."

[Kaotix]

And the chicks save the day. Take that, fastest thing alive!

Well if they hadn't had gotten themselves captured in the first place, Sonic would't have needed to be rescued. Sonic was able to fight the mind control. Sally however wasn't.

If Snively was smart, he would have asked Sally to give him the location of Knothole. She would have told him since she was under control enough to get Sonic captured.

[Tristan Palmgren]

Naugus blew his wad on Sally, so to speak (beautiful mental image, eh?). Sonic wouldn't have stood a better chance if he'd been Naugus's first target.

I hope Naugus puts in a better showing later, though. Something needed to happen to help the Freedom Fighters out on their first meeting, but crumpling to the floor was more Naugus's failure than the heroes' success.

[Kaotix]

Naugus blew his wad on Sally, so to speak (beautiful mental image, eh?). Sonic wouldn't have stood a better chance if he'd been Naugus's first target.

I hope Naugus puts in a better showing later, though. Something needed to happen to help the Freedom Fighters out on their first meeting, but crumpling to the floor was more Naugus's failure than the heroes' success.

So what we are saying is that Snively is making the same mistakes that Robotnik did in going after the hedgehog when he could have used Naugus' power to force Sally to tell him where Knothole is right from the getgo.

[chalcara]

And the chicks save the day. Take that, fastest thing alive!

Well if they hadn't had gotten themselves captured in the first place, Sonic would't have needed to be rescued. Sonic was able to fight the mind control. Sally however wasn't.

If Snively was smart, he would have asked Sally to give him the location of Knothole. She would have told him since she was under control enough to get Sonic captured.

OMG GIRLS DID SOMETHING USEFUL! LET's disparage it as soon as possible!

[Kaotix]

Well they shouldn't get praised for it either.

Sonic was captured because they were captured and manipulated by Naugus. Now if they were never captured and Sonic was, then they could be Big Damn Heroes. Instead, they are correcting a situation that they were mainly the cause for.

It'd be like saving the life of a guy you accidentally shot. It doesn't make you a hero. You just (mostly) fixed your mistake.

And if it ws the other way around with Sonic being captured and causing the girls to be captured, then he wouldn't be a Big Damn Hero for escaping and saving them either.

Besides that's Antoine's gimmick for being The Load and causing bad things to happen to the other characters and then (sometimes) correcting it.


TV tropes has ruined my life...

[Tristan Palmgren]

So what we are saying is that Snively is making the same mistakes that Robotnik did in going after the hedgehog when he could have used Naugus' power to force Sally to tell him where Knothole is right from the getgo.

Pretty much, yeah. Snively focused on the immediate threat (the hedgehog in the city), assuming he could mop up the rest later. He was wrong. He didn't understand the limits of Naugus's powers.

I have no problem with this. A lot of battle is chaos and luck and taking advantage of your enemies' mistakes. It doesn't detract from what Sally and Bunnie do later, either.

[fishtheimpaler]

We don't know how long/how deep Sally went under the mind control. All we know is that Naugus got her to say at least one thing over the comms. Additionally, the degree to which resistance to the mind control is possible might also be dependent on how much natural disinclination the victim has toward performing the action. Sally's "get Sonic to come here" is not quite as bad as Sonic's "ruin everything for everyone ever." It would also explain why the first question--a request for information that Sonic happens to know isn't probably that useful to Snively--doesn't trip out the spell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've ever seen Naugus use mind control to do anything on the level of issuing a self-destruct command or the like.

The main point, I guess, is that any of these mechanisms are fine so long as Naugus remains a credible threat and his powers are consistent.

[Gojira007]

Actually, fish, that's almost exactly the logic I used when writing the script; I tried to find a way to give that info to the audience directly, but it kept feeling forced and over-expository.

[John Roberts]

Well they shouldn't get praised for it either.

Sonic was captured because they were captured and manipulated by Naugus. Now if they were never captured and Sonic was, then they could be Big Damn Heroes. Instead, they are correcting a situation that they were mainly the cause for.

It'd be like saving the life of a guy you accidentally shot. It doesn't make you a hero. You just (mostly) fixed your mistake.

And if it ws the other way around with Sonic being captured and causing the girls to be captured, then he wouldn't be a Big Damn Hero for escaping and saving them either.

Besides that's Antoine's gimmick for being The Load and causing bad things to happen to the other characters and then (sometimes) correcting it.


TV tropes has ruined my life...

Sally was clearly feeling guilty and regretful for her part in the manipulation from Naugus, and she and Bunnie clearly redeemed themselves by getting past this and saving the day. They could have just sat there in that cell whining about how mean the world is and let someone else clean up their mess, but they didn't. Not every hero fight has to be a good hand of cards played well; Sally played a very bad hand rather well at a crucial moment.

(Ha! And another Whedon reference inadvertently used).

[Massagraf]

I think I know why Sally's acting so weird. If my theory's correct, congratulations with destroying that plothole

[Aizen90]

So what we are saying is that Snively is making the same mistakes that Robotnik did in going after the hedgehog when he could have used Naugus' power to force Sally to tell him where Knothole is right from the getgo.

Pretty much, yeah.

Even though that's the exact opposite of Snively's intelligence shown in season 2? And one of the reason you think "oh crap!" when Snively becomes the new main villian in the very last scene? No offense but in my opinion the fact that he was clearly portraid as far more intelligent than Robotnik was a major part of his character and the story, and it feels like that's been forgotten in this comic.

[John Roberts]

I may need to go back re-watch some episodes, but I don't think Snively was ever shown as 'more intelligent' than Robotnik. He stood in the background seeing where Robotnik went wrong, the awesome power of hindsight and the such, but now he has to actually stand in Robotnik's place. Perhaps he's not taking the preasure all that well. Seemingly making a deal with the devil, and slipping up with those Swat-bot modifications "I knew that quick-fix was no substitute for a full reprogramming!” (More powerful hindsight from Snively), it feels to me that he had a bad case of over-confidence.

Now, whether he learns from that mistake and becomes more of that threat he seemed to posses in Season 2, or sinks further in failure, remains to be seen. I don't feel the comic has forgotten anything there - it's just not following the obvious Snively-will-be-better-than-Robotnik route. In the end only our Sea3on staff know for certain, because damned if I do.

But, hey! Discussions are all part of the fun.

[chalcara]

I may need to go back re-watch some episodes, but I don't think Snively was ever shown as 'more intelligent' than Robotnik. He stood in the background seeing where Robotnik went wrong, the awesome power of hindsight and the such, but now he has to actually stand in Robotnik's place. Perhaps he's not taking the preasure all that well. Seemingly making a deal with the devil, and slipping up with those Swat-bot modifications "I knew that quick-fix was no substitute for a full reprogramming!" (More powerful hindsight from Snively), it feels to me that he had a bad case of over-confidence.

Now, whether he learns from that mistake and becomes more of that threat he seemed to posses in Season 2, or sinks further in failure, remains to be seen. I don't feel the comic has forgotten anything there - it's just not following the obvious Snively-will-be-better-than-Robotnik route. In the end only our Sea3on staff know for certain, because damned if I do.

But, hey! Discussions are all part of the fun.

Dunno, Snively actually struck me as dumber than Robotnik. Exhibit a) It was Robotnik, not snively, who realised the wolfpack had covered up the ground entrances to their city. Sniv took over because Robotnik made a mistake with the handling of the doomsday project - Everyone can bide their time till the superior fucks up; it doesn't need intelligence just patience.

It's not as if Snively outwitted Robotnik, his natural cowardice just allowed him to see where Robotnik has a blind spot. His natural cowardice led him to actually have plans in case of catastrophic failure - whereas Robotnik had trouble with the concept of him not winning.

And the second Snively's in command, he shows the same weeknesses as Robotnik - Not planning for failure.


Something else to keep in mind: Snively has been shown to fold under stress like a wet towel. It didn't matter who put the heat on him - be it Robotnik, Sonic or just technological failure; when alot of things happen not as planned, Snively ends up squeaking like a rat. Oh, he may mutter menacially afterwards, but during such a situation he's whimpering and squeaking. That's his biggest character flaw.

And maybe what makes him so goddamn dangerous: Snively's (unlike Robotnik) a bona fide fear biter.

[Tristan Palmgren]

Even though that's the exact opposite of Snively's intelligence shown in season 2?

Robotnik: Have you noticed that there are caves along the top of the canyon wall... but none at ground level?

Snively: Oh, yes, sir.

Robotnik: What's that tell you?

Snively: That the wolves... *squeak*... used to be very tall?

[Speedy_25]

I love every page of this comic series, it's doing great!!

[Aizen90]

You are right about those moments with Snively, the moments I was refering to however were parts of several episodes where Snively says things to Robotnik like "why not just kill him now?" and then secretly thinks to himself "you'll ruin everything", showing Snively doesn't fall for the dumbass villian stereotype of talking to the hero for too long or not killing him immediatly.

And then there's 'No Brainer' where Snively manages to hypnotise basically the entire main freedom fighter group, including Sonic, he got far closer to defeating the Freedom Fighters than Robotnik, and that was only his first time running everything. He only failed simply because of Tail's ability to fly.

[Tristan Palmgren]

The thing with Snively is that, while he may be smart (in some circumstances), he has entirely the wrong motivations to succeed as a villain. Throughout the entire series, he's motivated principally by the hope of making a good impression on others--usually Robotnik or himself but sometimes the Freedom Fighters, too (see the cape-and-helmet getup and dramatics in 'No Brainer'). His years living under Robotnik have trained him to do so. Robotnik controlled every aspect of his life, and so his life gradually started to revolve around appearing competent and valuable.

In Sonic Racer, he didn't want to murder Sonic for the sake of the deed. He wanted to murder Sonic to impress Robotnik. Same thing with hunting the Wolf Pack. He wasn't thinking properly because hunting the Wolf Pack wasn't his first goal. It was just a means to an end--appearing competent.

When he thinks he can get away with a shortcut that nobody will see, he does. The sloppy SWATbot reprogramming in the comic. Or trusting Julian, already a chronic backstabber, with unfettered computer access before the coup, back when he thought they were partners.

Robotnik didn't bother with appearances until he was finished with everything else. Impressing people was a lower priority. Even when he gloated it was usually some kind of psychological attack. He took no shortcuts, even invisible ones. He wanted to win. And he usually did.