62 replies to this topic

[Ratty Randnums]

I completely agree with this. Keeping an entire relationship status as a private part of someone's life is close to impossible, and verges on the point of it being needlessly discrete. However, keeping the details of what all goes on in a relationship is really no one's business. If a homosexual or heterosexual talks/boasts loudly about something they did with their partner, and someone can hear this that didn't ask, then that's wrong.

Heterosexuals are allowed to freely display affection to a certain "decent" (decided by the larger society/traditions and so on) degree in public, but just because you and some others have a problem with it, they shouldn't? Of course not, that's your problem. And the same applies for homosexuals, or should, in an equal society. I think being reasonable you would have to agree.

To elaborate a little more, I think it's a good thing to boast that someone is in a relationship. In fact, that's healthy. If one were to simply mention their significant other's name without stating they're in a relationship with them prior, then that could lead to misconceptions and for people to form 'crushes' or desires for one of the two in the couple since it was never made known that they were both taken. So again, I think it's good for someone to say they're in a relationship, but I honestly wouldn't want to know if the person were homosexual or heterosexual or not.

But you agree they should say it freely? So you're agreeing that the problem really is your own sensitivity.

To be quite honest, I'm homophobic and sexuaphobic if that's even a word. To explain the latter, I just don't like envisioning or hearing about one's sexual life or desires.

One's? You mean one as in person, or one as in person who is homosexual.

It's disgusting to me, no matter how 'natural' it is. Moving on, I'm not 'scared' nor do I 'hate' homosexuals, it's just I don't like, in fact, I hate, seeing two females or two males kiss or show affection to eachother that's beyond platonic. "Friends" have done this in my presence before just out of spite.

Ahh but not two people of the opposite sex?

This is largely why I believe no one should proclaim their sexuality/go into details about their relationship.

You mean why you'd prefer they didn't, even though you said above you think it's healthy.

To be fair, I say I don't like hearing about a heterosexual's relationship either simply to be fair to homosexuals,

You "say that to be fair"/"simply to be fair" so you're only saying that in an attempt to be fair? Or do you mean all sexual ideas make you sick?

but its also the whole dominant/submissive factor that's involved. I think that specifically is a sick and twisted way of having a healthy relationship,

This is a part of every relationship to some degree or another, though the dominant and submissive roles are switched around of course. And what you're thinking of isn't for most practitioners so much a full lifestyle as an accentuation/magnification for a heightened sexual experience. Of course someone tied up and led by a collar for sexual gratification probably doesn't do this as an everyday thing. Just like someone who dresses up like a Nurse or Police officer for sexual shenanigans X3 .

I currently am in a relationship, but everything we do is mostly platonic. Mostly, not everything.

Uhm, ok, thanks for sharin'.

Anyone who tells you God has changed their sexual desires is lying my friend, if you think he's changed yours (like killing your sex drive) you're fooling yourself.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the person you quoted never mentioned God in his/her post. Granted, I only read a few sentences out of that person's post, but it seems odd that you'd bring religion into this if not.

It is part of the topic, did you watch the film it started with? Furthermore he mentioned his beliefs which if I recall he has said elsewhere are Christian (and most likely he's referring to religion even if not Christianity in particular).

The real reason why I quoted you though is to say this:

A lot of people are speaking out for others, and that's wrong.

In your opinion. Speaking out for a speaking for cane be interpreted very differently, but really I don't know how you're seeing such an abundance of this. The topic is again about evidence, not so much opinion.

I personally don't care about nor regard these 'studies' that a few people regard as references to be very liable, if at all.

All I want to hear are the opinions straight from the individuals.

Great for you, start your own topic. This one as you see at the top is about the *Science of Homosexuality* (and showing the need for study in it, which is where religion comes into the discussion as it often in favor of a biased view of sexuality which is antithetic to the scientific method) which, yes, involves studies and research.

If I ask a lot of homosexuals-turned-heterosexuals why they changed, then I'm sure I could make a generalization that "it's untrue that sexuality is a choice," but in truth that would only apply to those people that I had asked.

Your point being... ? I think you misunderstand studies to purely mean "surveys".

There are probably people out there who do think sexuality is a choice simply because their sex drive may not be as powerful as someone else's, and many other causes. Love is an extremely complexed thing, and I really doubt studies will ever be able to distinguish between it being a choice or not.

We have decoded the human genome, I think we'll be able to handle sizable complexities. It's odd the amount of attention love gets in the studies on the human mind in comparison to say anger or simple sexual attraction, but with all of the advances the scientific method has brought us in understanding ourselves and the universe around us, I've yet to see a reason why we shouldn't try to understand some of our strongest motivations and emotions using it. Personally I'd guess a lot of the reluctance though is that people would like to think of love and attraction as undecipherable, it is certainly a magical experience in the metaphorical sense, maybe people aren't yet willing to let go of a belief in that description of it in the literal sense just yet.

[Ratty Randnums]

Well, with all due respect, Ratty, I refuse to talk more about this subject than I already have. I don't mean to get the last word in with this post or anything, but it's clear that I did not attack any opposing views and I clearly stated my opinion.

It's fine if you don't want to discuss it any more, but when I asked for clarification it was because I didn't understand it- and I think all of my questions were from reasonable unsureness because you were not clear.

There's no, 'so you mean this or that?' about it. Hey, I'll be honest, while you did give insightful replies to a few of my quoted texts, most of it I found was just your nosiness and inability to interpret my opinion.

Wanting to understand the meaning of something you said freely is not nosiness, and your lack of clarity was the cause of it, though it may have seemed clear to you (clearly ).

However, I can see where someone could possibly be confused about my opinion, so to try to sum it up:

I don't kiss or flirtatiously interact with my significant other in public, and I expect the same respect in return.

Yes but you see I could pour applesauce on my head and say I expected everyone else to do it in return, but it doesn't work like that. Society is collective, it doesn't work from the wishes of one individual.

I'm not a hypocrite from this perspective.

"One's? You mean one as in person, or one as in person who is homosexual."

You seem to be trying to twist my words into something much more cynical than they are not.

Nopes, just wanted to be clear on what you were saying.

I said one's, which means anyone who is heterosexual or homosexual.

Alrighteh.

I've always found it a bit annoying when people dissect other peoples' posts and negatively comment about every detail.

Lol x3 I'm just trying to answer all of your points :3

Granted, some of your points were valid, others were not.

I'd ask which ones but you're not posting again :/

Second, I didn't ask to be told to 'get back on topic.' I'm usually the one to try to be as loyal to the first post as I can be, but other conversations were started, so I decided to express my opinion. I express my opinion by stating what I do and what bothers me specifically, not by judging other people and stating what's none of my business.

See that would make sense except you got on me for mentioning religion when it's clearly part of the topic from the start.

So, again, to be more clear about this: I think it's fine if someone says, 'hey, I'm in a relationship, back off,' if approached flirtatiously by someone, but I don't believe it's ok for someone to go into detail when it's not asked for. If you still disagree or whatever, then so be it. I'm done 'trolling' to a degree, but I was expecting an intellectual discussion.

The whole point of trolling is to derail intellectual discussion . I simply answered your post as best I could :3 (though I was quite tired this morning so might not have been the best overall x3)

[Vlad Yvhv]

Well... Really... Who hasn't gotten ticked off at an overly romantic couple at some point? There comes a point where someone has to stand up for public desncency and shout "Get a room!" at them... And if they're friends of yers, then go ahead and throw a drink at them while yer at it, or find a garden hose.

Essentially, the line of what's acceptable behavior depends on where you are and who's around. In a bar or club or other similar place, it's probly ok to make out with your SO. It's not, however, ok to do so in church or at a movie, where it becomes a distraction and annoyance to most everyone around you.

[The Man]

And we know people's common sense rate is off the scale.

Sorry to be so negative but every bad thing haunts you so I'm not to happy about the way things have gone. I'd probably feel better if I talked about them but there's nothing I can do about it.

I can't make someone get a room or change their ideas. How is it possible to get anyone to be willingly a good person? I can't believe I"m saying this because I've also claimed life would be boring if it were perfect/without problems.

It's not like I've always gone with the flow myself.

To be more serious and reiterate a point it comes down to religion also being a cause for this problem. If we were to suspend religion for a day what would happen? When you teach people that a cause and/or an idea is divine it gives a sense there's more meaning to it.

It leads into discrimination/intolerance/hatred because people have a preconcieved notion(presumption)that the new idea just defy's their belief when in fact it's one idea out of millions. I think some people are embarassed by it so much they can't even admit it and/or brainwashed by the idea.

[Vlad Yvhv]

Do people not heckle eachother where you're from? The purpose is to simply disrupt the unwanted behavior and get a bit of laugh in the process. It's similar to shouting "Say no to crack!" or "Buy a belt!" to someone who's wearing saggy pants. We're not foolish enough to think that it'll make them change their ways... We're just having some fun at their expense. Changing the state of being offended to being entertained for the moment.

Define your proposed suspension of religion. If we're talking about a total "nothing you do today will ever be counted against you" idea, then there's a lot of people who need to die and I've got 500 bullets to spend... Suspending all concept of right and wrong leaves the door wide open to total chaos.

Do you really think that people are inherently benign? Well, we aren't. We're violent and aggressive, with only the concept of rules and punishment to keep us in line. And those don't always do the job... Most "normal" and "sane" people tend to follow the general rules that prevent us from following our more destructive natures. Intolerance and hatred have existed long before the concept of religion, back when our ancestors were flinging their feces at eachother for living on the wrong side of the tree... If anything, religion does help curb the violent tendencies, if only toward one another within the same religion...

Part of the problem with free will and independent thought is that they allow for the worse sides of humanity to surface. As such, the only real way to rid ourselves of these bad sides would be to strip ourselves of our humanity... To essentially become mindless robots or zombies... Slaves to some sort of ideal set of behaviors, or just living corpses hooked up to life support machines...

I believe you've fallen into the trap of blaming religion for the faults of the people who misuse it. The key flaw in any human system is the humans, themselves. It's unfortunately convenient for people to hide behind religion when doing things that're clearly not right, or actively use it as a means to attack others. But these people are simply using it because it's convenient for them to do so. They'd use some other reason if religion was removed from the equation.

Conversely, attacking religion and the religious only serves to further this point. Those who harbor prejudice and hatred toward religion and the religious are just as bad as those who use religion as an excuse for their hatred and prejudice.

[MistressAli]

I do agree with parts of your statement Ylad, but not this part...

Define your proposed suspension of religion. ....Suspending all concept of right and wrong leaves the door wide open to total chaos.

Getting rid of religion does not get rid of a concept of right and wrong. Hatred and intolerance existed before religion, but so did love, respect and tenderness. And atheists have a moral code. I, as an atheist myself, don't have the 'incentives' to be good that religion gives, yet I want to be good anyway, why?... because -I-think it's the right thing, and because I was raised to feel bad about hurting people, and to feel good when people get along. That's a reward and punishment system right there, and of course, there's still laws to keep me in line.
No, laws are certainly not enough for everyone, but there's no evidence that religion stops bad behavior, eithier. (how many serial killers are religious? O.O) It's the nature of the human beast...we're violent. Nothing will stop that. I do agree with you when you say the only way to end human violence is to turn everyone into zombies. Or maybe just kill anyone who displays excessive violence or anger so eventually only the more docile and calm tempered traits get passed on? I don't see that one happening.
But people won't become mindless pyschopaths just because there's no religion. To be honest, I don't think there'd be an incredible difference in violence levels; however there might be a little less elitist and judgemental behavior. I also personally think the shame and repression that some religion teaches is damaging to the human pysche. And the way many religions put the woman as lesser to the man, I don't think that's helpful either. Anything that damages the human pysche may lead to bad behavior.
But who knows...

[randomizer]

Or maybe just kill anyone who displays excessive violence or anger

Ironic much?

[Ratty Randnums]

Or maybe just kill anyone who displays excessive violence or anger

Ironic much?

What's ironic about quote mining?

Also yes of course almost everyone gets peeved sometimes when people are practically humping in public, but that's because it's not socially normal and therefore makes many of us uncomfortable. Maybe you could argue that some people would be uncomfortable around it whether it was common or not but the thing is a healthy society doesn't revolve around the needs of one or two individuals, certainly it doesn't or shouldn't descriminate against them either, but their own descirimination against the accepted and non harmful practices of the many will at best probably be ignored.

[MistressAli]

Or maybe just kill anyone who displays excessive violence or anger

Ironic much?

Well, it was really a joking suggestion. I mean, honestly, how could you really get rid of the violent traits of humans? Eliminating humans who are overly violent from the gene pool? I guess you wouldn't have to kill them. Just make them sterile

[randomizer]

Just make them sterile

That could be more violent depending on how you go about it.

[Vlad Yvhv]

Just make them sterile

That could be more violent depending on how you go about it.

As long as yer not planning on going into the "moutain oyster" business...

[MistressAli]

Just make them sterile

That could be more violent depending on how you go about it.

As long as yer not planning on going into the "moutain oyster" business...

But they're so tasty skewered and grilled over an open flame! >:}

[chief]

To be perfectly honest.. When I see 2 gay guys holding hands or kissing I get kinda creeped out.. Same with 2 women.. Just.. weird..

Call me whatever you want from that I don't care haha.

I don't care if people are homosexual, I just prefer not to witness acts of it... Mind you I'm not exactly all yee haw and watching 2 straight people kiss and ... sometimes keep kissing either. Probably cause.. Even when I have a girlfriend I don't like to do anything past holding hands in public..


Uhm... Really point here is.. Do I think homosexuals should not be able to hold hands and shit in public.. They should like anyone I guess sure. But.. Do I want to see it? No.


So what you would call me from this I dunno.. Yea they should have the exact same rights I just don't want to see it every time I go out.

Eh... Yea that's about it I guess. And.. I like to consider myself pretty decent on this matter to be honest.. I'm not all for it but I'm not trying to burn people for it either.

[The Man]

I posted long before Rocky I'm a universalist/positivist and believe in an ideas suspension/advocation when the situation calls for it. With DNA evidence and eye witness testimony at my side I think religion is responsible for the murder of millions-and sadly-people who had nothing to do with it.

The problem people have is they like to take one side of the argument. Basically our minds can not concieve what perfect is so you invent an idea in an attempt to justify what you don't know about.

It really comes down to the act of single-minded people who won't tolerate homosexuality or learning how to swim. Some people can be very stubborn while others can hold their breath longer.

To conclude it the theory of quantum mechanics says that in one universe people believed in religion and everyone lived happily ever after-unfortunately in our universe it was also a motivation for murder.

[An7imatt3r]

Chief I agree with you, and my guess is that is how a lot of people feel. I don't want to see people being intimate with each other in public. It doesn't bother me in the slightest who it is though, just as long as i don't have to see it. It bothers me deeply that people can't just respect who others are and leave them alone.
I have been raised a catholic, but don't buy into a lot of it. From what I have gathered, a religion and its god is supposed to be perfect, and yet in many cases they condone killing, persecution, and ridicule... perfect huh? For that reason I simply try keep everything in perspective and treat everyone equally, we are all people regardless of anything. Obviously those who make poor choices in life (i.e kill people) need to be thought about differently, but being homosexual is not a choice. The reading i have done on the subject suggest that people knew from a young age that they were different. People simply react to what feels natural to them, and thats what makes us human.

[The Man]

Is it a choice?

Yes, there are choices if you are aware of them and know the real reasons why they might be motivating.

[MaRaMa-TSG]

It's too late and I'm too tired to read most of this but here's my opinion from experience and personal beliefs.

Firstly, I believe people can do whatever the heck they want with their lives as long as they don't hurt anyone and if with another as long as it's mutual.

About homosexuality I believe there can be 3 causes.

1. By choice: I do know of people who just are so open minded they can appreciate both opposite and same gender bodies and so they're bisexual. I also know of a girl that said that was the best way for her to not get pregnant. Being with another girl.

2. Past experiences causing them some trauma: and I do mean trauma, because they won't have a normal way of thinking. Like if a girl is raped by their father or any male and end up hating makes so much they find them repulsive and cannot stand them so they feel comfort from their own gender, same goes for males because males can get raped too.
They could also be bullied by the gender they end up disliking, or have an abusive parent of the opposite gender.
I also know of a male adult who was married but had such a horrible relationship with his wife he found comfort in another male coworker who had gone through the same. That friend walked him through divorce and eventually they fell in love with each other. After many painful months of guilt and shame from having such feelings for each other they gave up in hiding and made it public. One of the families accepted it as long as they were happy, the other didn't but the guy didn't care anyway. They seem happy together and I even find them cute sometimes. Just like a regular couple.

3. Born that way because of hormonal imbalance. These are the kind that look effeminate in their gestures and sometimes even physical looks and voice. Now not all of them do follow their hormones. A high school art teacher of mine was highly effeminate but he was married with children and very happy. It's funny because he has two more brothers and I say he's the middle version, because one of the others is manly and straight while the other is just plain "gay". I've had many friends that are either girly males or manly females that are that way not from deciding to act it but because their bodies have a lot of the opposite gender hormone.
Some of them feel they're trapped in the wrong gender body to the point of hating themselves, that's why they get sex changes.


Me? I'm very straight. I love men too much.
I joke that I'm "lesbophobic" sometimes because it will freak me out when another female's trying to hit on me more than if it was a guy, but I'm aware it's because I've grown with a family that thought that a sin and old habits are hard to break. But I can understand homosexuality. I respect them and defend them because of the many friends I've had that way and I dislike when someone speaks of them as if they were a disgrace or something horrific.

I will never forget these words.
"You women are always assuming we can read your minds. You have to be clear with the things you from us! And I tell you this like a man..." A lesbian schoolmate.
She was a very awesome friend I won't forget~

[The Man]

I apoligize for my behavior here. It's really ignorance that gets the best of us.