62 replies to this topic

[The Man]

Ok, to post how I should post. Some people thought a long time ago that breaking the sound barrier and going to the moon were impossible. Is this situation any different?

I think someone else already said in this thread a 100 years ago women were not allowed to vote. It depends what idea we can discriminate against next.

[randomizer]

But back on topic, I agree that nobody ever suddenly decided their sexuality one day. So it's not a choice in that way. But as anyone who's ever decided to hold on to their virginity knows, you can choose whether or not to follow through on those sexual urges.

That I agree with. Just like you can choose not to go and eat when you're hungry.

Even change them.

That I'm pretty sure would be near impossible, at least right now.

[Vlad Yvhv]

I think Americans discriminate against homosexuals because humans always seem to hate what is different

*Homosexuals
*Blacks
*Anyone of a different culture
*ALL Arabs (like they all wanted to bomb us or something, it was the same as the Asians back during WWII)
*People suffering of Mental Retardation ( or any other thing related)

Basically what I said, but narrowed in scope. Don't forget that discrimination runs both ways a lot of the time. For example, "White" is a serious insult (fightin' word level at lest) amongst the general Native American populace. Of course, they really did earn that status... I don't know for sure, but I have a suspicion that the Jews may have a similar opinion on the tite of "Nazi"... Genocide'll do that...

One of the big problems with differences (reguardless of what kind) is that at least one side will have a "We're better than you!" attitutude, which really throws a wrench into any attempts to find common ground and get along.

The other major point I've got in relation to this is that people tend to look for scapegoats. People like having someone else to blame just as much (if not more than) having someone to hate.

Honestly I think love is love. Plus I have a lot of friends that are homosexuals and they are the nicest people around...
They don't make what they do in private a public thing.

You're onto something there... As long as they're keeping the rest of us out of it, who cares what anyone does? That's one point of contention... There's a lot of us in the world who find homosexuality disgusting, which then gets us into trouble for voicing our opinion, which leads to us getting mad at the folks who're now mad at us and so on... Most of us really don't care what they do in private, as long as they keep it private and keep us out of it.

In fact, that particular point goes for just about anything. Do what you do, so long as it doesn't negitivly affect the rest of us. Freedom within reasonable boundries. Simple enough in concept, but is apparently ruther difficult to achieve in practice...

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

*facepalm* no you can't. God isn't going to change your sexuality, did you even watch the short educational toon I made the topic for, or were you afraid to see things from others points of views (like, say, psychologists and other medical professionals)? Anyone who tells you God has changed their sexual desires is lying my friend, if you think he's changed yours (like killing your sex drive) you're fooling yourself.

Yes, I saw the toon. But, as I've expirenced while doing documentary work for film school, the filmmaker would take doctor's that agree with HIS views to make a film, and discard the other doctors who's findings are different. Most of Michael Moore's films do this very thing. Yes, the people he interviews are experts in the field of whatever topic, but he also discards or even mocks the many other experts of the field that dissagree with him.

No, no, no! Not to "kill" you sex drive. That IS impossible. But to quiet it so it doesn't determine who you are as a person. Not to say we won't be different due to gender. Gender will always determine a lot of what we do as people.

Sexuality is a mental thing. Anyone discussing hormones will tell you this. It has very little to do with whatever "hardware" you're born with. One's sexual organs merly react to whatever's happening in the brain. The brain is developed through expirences in life that lead up to whatever the end result would be, including one's sexuality.

If people were born with homosexualy sex organs, then we hould have men andwomen giving birth through homosexual acts.

And since sexualty is a mental occurance, it can be decided. This is why we have people who were promanatly heterosexual become homosexual over a period of time. Some indaviduals would even go as far as a gender change due to their change of mind in their sexuality.

[Ratty Randnums]

Yes, I saw the toon. But, as I've expirenced while doing documentary work for film school, the filmmaker would take doctor's that agree with HIS views to make a film, and discard the other doctors who's findings are different.

See, s/he (the film maker) didn't do that- Professional Associations were cited, not individual experts, this means the majority of the professionals in these associations (made up of people who know a lot more about human behavior and influence than either of us) believe this to be the case, and it is no short list.

Most of Michael Moore's films do this very thing. Yes, the people he interviews are experts in the field of whatever topic, but he also discards or even mocks the many other experts of the field that dissagree with him.

This has nothing to do with the topic, but I'll point out that both "many" "experts" and "fields" are all very subjective in your use there.

No, no, no! Not to "kill" you sex drive. That IS impossible.

No it isn't. What makes you think that it is? People lose their sex drives all the time man

But to quiet it so it doesn't determine who you are as a person.

What? Of course your sexuality affects you as a person, one of the human's main instincts (like with all other life) is to perform the reproductive act, along with sleeping and breathing it's just programed into most people.

Not to say we won't be different due to gender. Gender will always determine a lot of what we do as people.

How do you know? For most of human history (well, pre-history actually, the vast majority of our existance before we settled and record keeping began) it is most likely that women and men shared quite equal status in society, as each of the activities typically assigned them (gathering and hunting food respectively) had pretty much an equal part in the survival of the group as a whole. It is only with the settlement and start of farming (and thus typically women being less directly responsible for food production) that their work and therefore themselves have begun to be devalued, or seen as significantly different in society. And as we get closer to the perceived value of women's labor becoming equal the status differences will change, along with the culture that dictates how each should act and be treated.

Sexuality is a mental thing. Anyone discussing hormones will tell you this. It has very little to do with whatever "hardware" you're born with. One's sexual organs merly react to whatever's happening in the brain. The brain is developed through expirences in life that lead up to whatever the end result would be, including one's sexuality.

So you say that genetics have no role?

If people were born with homosexualy sex organs, then we hould have men andwomen giving birth through homosexual acts.

Uhm, ok... that contradicts the basic definition of homosexuality. Unless by "homosexual sex organ" you mean how men have that special sweet spot that makes... hee in the woo feel good come to think of it, that still doesn't make sense, what were you even trying to say?

And since sexualty is a mental occurance, it can be decided.

Just like love or hate or... oh wait, you said things that can be decided. Just because something is "mental" doesn't mean it can be decided. You didn't decide to have the brain you have for example, and all of the genetic influences upon it's formation.

This is why we have people who were promanatly heterosexual become homosexual over a period of time.

No, the reason we have homosexuals in denial/covering it up gradually accept themselves and be comfortable and confident enough in who they are is because society is getting less dumb in a lot of ways. Slowly, almost imperceptibly it might seem at times, but progress is being made

Some indaviduals would even go as far as a gender change due to their change of mind in their sexuality.

Some people are born in the wrong gender, and they know what their gender is better than anyone else, including you or me. If they want to get a sex change to match who they are, more power to them for having the (unusual-in-today's-world) courage to be who they really are

[Anaesthesia]

If people were born with homosexualy sex organs, then we hould have men andwomen giving birth through homosexual acts.

Um.... no. That would defeat the purpose of having distinct sexes in the first place.

While the human sex drive comes from the need to reproduce, people can and often do have sex without the intention of making babies—as do dolphins and bonobos, IIRC. Women are still receptive to sex even when it's not the fertile part of their menstrual cycle. Humans don't have a set "mating season".

And since sexualty is a mental occurance, it can be decided. This is why we have people who were promanatly heterosexual become homosexual over a period of time. Some indaviduals would even go as far as a gender change due to their change of mind in their sexuality.

Another no of the "lolwut" variety, for everything Ratty just said. You can't help your own personal tastes, but you can become aware of them. I couldn't just wake up one morning and say, "From now on, my favorite color is blue!" any more than I could say, "Well, I've weighed the costs and benefits, and I think I'd rather be an uncertain but mostly straight woman from now on. And hey, maybe I'll throw in a fetish for lanky British nerds just for kicks and see how that goes!"

That's not to say that we're complete slaves to our genes without any kind of free will, but we don't choose the kinds of brains and hormones we were born with, either.

[randomizer]

I couldn't just wake up one morning and say, "From now on, my favorite color is blue!"

I think I pretty much did that when changing from blue to green.

[Ratty Randnums]

I couldn't just wake up one morning and say, "From now on, my favorite color is blue!"

I think I pretty much did that when changing from blue to green.

But did you decide to like it enough to want to *officially* change it to your favorite?
I've always since toddler hood liked purple myself.






PS-

While the human sex drive comes from the need to reproduce, people can and often do have sex without the intention of making babies—as do dolphins and bonobos, IIRC. Women are still receptive to sex even when it's not the fertile part of their menstrual cycle. Humans don't have a set "mating season".

Exactly, well put Ana . The fact that we as social animals don't have an estrus cycle and so obviously use it as a socializing/bonding tool whether offspring can result or not (from infertility or even advanced age for example) only further supports the idea that so-called "wasteful" sex between persons who can't reproduce because they are of the same sex can be and IS useful in the other capacities besides reproduction that we use (and to one degree or another always have used as social animals) sex for for. -And in our world today it is undeniably used more for these other reasons than simple reproduction.

[randomizer]

But did you decide to like it enough to want to *officially* change it to your favorite?

I believe so, since green is still my favourite, and blue was my favourite until sometime around 3rd grade but I'm not exactly sure. Perhaps something influenced me to change my favourite colour but that's too long ago to remember.

[Ratty Randnums]

But did you decide to like it enough to want to *officially* change it to your favorite?

I believe so, since green is still my favourite, and blue was my favourite until sometime around 3rd grade but I'm not exactly sure. Perhaps something influenced me to change my favourite colour but that's too long ago to remember.

*nods* so you see, you didn't actually have control over it. Might it have been a certain Blue hedgehog that made you want to take that banner up as your color of choice? But the comparison is a little skewed since favorite colors usually don't involve one of the major influences on human existence. Still though, I mean if we could *really* control it wouldn't the best thing to do just be to change it to whatever color you are looking at the time? So you'd always be facing your favorite color? You can tell yourself whatever color you're looking at is your favorite sure, but is it?

[randomizer]

Actually I think it was due to the fact that I was in the "blue house" for our school sports carnivals. If Sonic cartoons or games were what influenced my favourite colour, I should have liked brown/orange most *points to avatar and sig* Or maybe there is no such thing as a favourite colour, and we have all been brain-washed by the government into thinking it can exist.

[Vlad Yvhv]

Favorites aren't hard-wired and often change. Is your favorite movie today the same as it was when you were 5? Probly not. In fact, many of you may not even be able to stand some of your old favorite things, now.

[Anaesthesia]

But you have reasons for changing your mind about a movie, most of which have to do with more specific aspects such as plot, characterization, explosions, and all that jazz. That's not really the same as preferring one color over another.

The point I was getting at was that we really don't choose the brains that we're given, and that many aspects of our personality—including personal tastes—are mostly natural. I wasn't trying to say everything was hard-wired from birth; it's just that you don't necessarily pick your aesthetic preferences on a conscious level. Admittedly, my analogy was flawed, since aesthetic choices aren't quite on the same level as preferences in partners. But the gist of my argument was that nature's an important part of orientation.

[Ratty Randnums]

But you have reasons for changing your mind about a movie, most of which have to do with more specific aspects such as plot, characterization, explosions, and all that jazz. That's not really the same as preferring one color over another.

The point I was getting at was that we really don't choose the brains that we're given, and that many aspects of our personality—including personal tastes—are mostly natural. I wasn't trying to say everything was hard-wired from birth; it's just that you don't necessarily pick your aesthetic preferences on a conscious level. Admittedly, my analogy was flawed, since aesthetic choices aren't quite on the same level as preferences in partners. But the gist of my argument was that nature's an important part of orientation.

*nods* exactly. A better example might have been taste in food (in which you crave/like what your body thinks it needs) which is also connected to one of the two or three major motivations in human life. -And since I know someone is probably going to mention acquired tastes at that, they don't supplant your natural tastes, and people can "acquire tastes" (like certain fetishes) for different things sexually and it doesn't change their orientation. Though it's not an exact likeness obviously (nothing ever is, arguing the finer points of culinary art and it's appreciation won't invalidate the real point of the analogy) but like with taste in food it depends on what kind of body you were born with/your genetics, and what it comes to desire as it matures.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

But you have reasons for changing your mind about a movie, most of which have to do with more specific aspects such as plot, characterization, explosions, and all that jazz. That's not really the same as preferring one color over another.

The point I was getting at was that we really don't choose the brains that we're given, and that many aspects of our personality—including personal tastes—are mostly natural. I wasn't trying to say everything was hard-wired from birth; it's just that you don't necessarily pick your aesthetic preferences on a conscious level. Admittedly, my analogy was flawed, since aesthetic choices aren't quite on the same level as preferences in partners. But the gist of my argument was that nature's an important part of orientation.

*nods* exactly. A better example might have been taste in food (in which you crave/like what your body thinks it needs) which is also connected to one of the two or three major motivations in human life. -And since I know someone is probably going to mention acquired tastes at that, they don't supplant your natural tastes, and people can "acquire tastes" (like certain fetishes) for different things sexually and it doesn't change their orientation. Though it's not an exact likeness obviously (nothing ever is, arguing the finer points of culinary art and it's appreciation won't invalidate the real point of the analogy) but like with taste in food it depends on what kind of body you were born with/your genetics, and what it comes to desire as it matures.

True, and I do think that the most of sexual orientation is genetic, but the genetics determine how the brain is developed. And when the brain is developed so sights, sounds, scents, and whatever else of somebody is aroused when someone is the same sex approaches, then that person is being motivated by what was determined in the early development of his/her brain.

But parts of the brain have been naturally altered in the past to be used in ways that were not originally intended for it to do. So NOTHING can EVER be hard wired.

For example, blind people have a tremendous sense of touch, smell, and hearing to compensate for their inability to see. When the brain of these people are scanned, scientists have found that the section of the brain that normally handles sight has adapted to be used to decipher touch, smells, and sounds instead of sight. Experiments done with patients with sight, but blindfolded, show that this change in the function of the brain occurs within 48 hours of having their sight withheld from them. So, this is not a hard thing for the brain to do.

If something like sight, formally considered by most to be a hard wired part of the brain, can adapt to perform other tasks, then certainly the section that assigns sexual preferences can adapt as well. It would just take some pretty strong will power to do it.

But then, I'm only focusing on the physical aspects of sexual orientation. Just looking at the brain and how it functions. I've completely overlooked the emotional side of sexual orientation, which is inseparable from any situation regarding sex. I mean, who doesn't look at someone who attracts them within their preferred sex and not feel unexplainable emotions for that person.

And I really don't think human emotions are debatable topics. And if you tell me otherwise you'll hurt my feelings!

[Ratty Randnums]

True, and I do think that the most of sexual orientation is genetic, but the genetics determine how the brain is developed. And when the brain is developed so sights, sounds, scents, and whatever else of somebody is aroused when someone is the same sex approaches, then that person is being motivated by what was determined in the early development of his/her brain.

The same is true of non-sexual situations, it isn't isolated incidents of sexual prefrence/food etc. that are affected by how we develop, but everything.

But parts of the brain have been naturally altered in the past to be used in ways that were not originally intended for it to do. So NOTHING can EVER be hard wired.

When what how and where?

For example, blind people have a tremendous sense of touch, smell, and hearing to compensate for their inability to see. When the brain of these people are scanned, scientists have found that the section of the brain that normally handles sight has adapted to be used to decipher touch, smells, and sounds instead of sight. Experiments done with patients with sight, but blindfolded, show that this change in the function of the brain occurs within 48 hours of having their sight withheld from them. So, this is not a hard thing for the brain to do.

Actually I've heard that reports of this phenomnon (at least as applying to people with such afflictions as being "norma/typical/common") are either overblown or false, could I see some sources on this?

If something like sight, formally considered by most to be a hard wired part of the brain,

It is a hard wired part of the brain, actually- nothing you said above contricts the idea that it is. And we have been able to work on the section of the brain in people who have lost their sight (in at least one case I know of) and restore primitive perception artifically, it's very much hard wired.

can adapt to perform other tasks, then certainly the section that assigns sexual preferences can adapt as well. It would just take some pretty strong will power to do it..

Will power? Ugh, Even if the above is true, what makes you think will power has anything to do with it? Concentrating on those sections because the brain no longer has the ability to use it's sense of sight, that's like saying that someone who loses their sexual organs can and will probably lose their sex drive (but not their orientation most likely) very quickly, will power has nothing to do with it.
Or if you were to mention people who were blind from birth (which I think is where many or most of these cases of people having very impressive ablities in the other senses come from, as the part of the brain concerning sight did not develop and the emphasis was put on the other senses, which being used more developed more/the person became more adept at using) or when they were very young- in which case it would be like saying that someone castrated before puberty probably wouldn't develop many sex-specific characteristics.

But then, I'm only focusing on the physical aspects of sexual orientation. Just looking at the brain and how it functions. I've completely overlooked the emotional side of sexual orientation, which is inseparable from any situation regarding sex.

I mean, who doesn't look at someone who attracts them within their preferred sex and not feel unexplainable emotions for that person.

Many people see those they are attracted to as objects unfortunately, and only feel sexual desire for the person who attracts them >.> and sexual desire isn't really an emotion as such (more an urge) -or at least not one that's "unexplainable" .

And I really don't think human emotions are debatable topics. And if you tell me otherwise you'll hurt my feelings!

Why, in your opinion, aren't they though? It's all part of the brain.