An amusing/interesting cartoon from the documentary "For the Bible Tells Me So" just got me thinking about this again recently, and wanted to share it with others.
Some fascinating stuff, and well presented to (so worth a watch even if you know it all already x3)! :3
And yes I believe that is the voice of the late great Don LaFontine ^^.
PS- maybe this could be moved to a more open part of the forum? Dunno if Rocky/Chief still want to keep such things so hidden.
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"Is it a choice?"/Science of Homosexuality
Started by Ratty Randnums, Dec 18 2008 04:50 PM
62 replies to this topic
#1
Ratty Randnums
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Posted 18 December 2008 - 04:50 PM
"I really think of life as a great expression of joy. And if you take yourself seriously you're going to be defeated I'm afraid.
...Maybe that is the whole recipe of life, is to be in on the joke. Because life is a joke and if you're not in on it you're out.
But if you're in on it, you can make it." - Vincent Price
"What have you got to lose? You know you come from nothing you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"
- Eric Idle
...Maybe that is the whole recipe of life, is to be in on the joke. Because life is a joke and if you're not in on it you're out.
But if you're in on it, you can make it." - Vincent Price
"What have you got to lose? You know you come from nothing you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!"
- Eric Idle
#2
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Posted 18 December 2008 - 05:20 PM
Nope, not a choice. Most people I ever knew said they knew something was different about themselves at young ages, they just did not know what. My aunt is homosexual and from she said, no choice in that. She said that she relationships with males, but something was always lacking. And then she met Carla....
#3
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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:00 AM
I think its a fuck up in hormones to be honest.
#4
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Posted 20 December 2008 - 09:00 AM
What I want to know is, why do all the studies we ever see talk about male homosexuality? Every time something is discovered about sexual preferences men are talked about and the women are left alone. I think we should try to find out what could be cause for girls. I mean, the same cannot apply for women.
#5
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Posted 20 December 2008 - 09:05 AM
I believe a lot of has to do with childhood experiences. Not so much as choice or anything hormone related.
If someone is molested as a child, they sometimes tend to have a fetish/hatred for whatever it was that tormented them. If a boy had it beat into their mind all their childhood that "Being TeH Gay will send you to hell"... well... They'll most likely grow up shouting "GOD HATES FAGS!".
So honestly, for the most part I think it's something they experienced throughout childhood. There can always be other answers, of course.
If someone is molested as a child, they sometimes tend to have a fetish/hatred for whatever it was that tormented them. If a boy had it beat into their mind all their childhood that "Being TeH Gay will send you to hell"... well... They'll most likely grow up shouting "GOD HATES FAGS!".
So honestly, for the most part I think it's something they experienced throughout childhood. There can always be other answers, of course.
#6
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Posted 20 December 2008 - 10:38 AM
I can see the reason behind why some people claim god hates gays. They feel hated by their god themselves so think that everyone should be hated. It's all part of self acceptance. But the whole molestation part, not sitting well with me. It can explain hatred toward gays, sure, but not an explanation as to why gays exist. Nope.
#7
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Posted 20 December 2008 - 04:05 PM
I know a buddy of mine(No, seriously) who was molested as a kid. He thinks guys are ugly, but has a sexual attraction towards the male body, and has acted on it.
I also know a woman who was raped as a child. She grew up hating boys, and now... well... is a lesbian.
I also know a woman who was molested as a child by another woman. She grew up bi sexual.
I study psychology, and this is one of the things that interests me. Practically, everyone that has come to me to talk(I am always the one everyone runs to cry to.[yay me])... if they had a perfectly normal childhood, (Normal social status, not the outcast...etc) they grew up vanilla. On the other hand, if they had a traumatizing childhood, at one point or another, they grew up with little quirks and fetishes. Fetishes lead to desire, and desire leads to ... whatever they want it to lead to. Such as having 1 night stands with skinny black men, or having a "girls night out".
You want to know why homosexual exist? There is far to many reasons to list. It could come from a hatred of ones own parents, such with men- the mother figure. It could come from what I mentioned. It could come from simply wanting to rebel and wanting to be different, and sure, they could just be born gay. There could be many, many reasons. There is no definitive answer to that.
EDIT-
And as for choice- Again, no. My friends didn't choose to have what happened to them as kids. They can't really help the urges they get, like when my buddy is watching porn, or doing whatever it is he does. He can't just say "NO! I DON'T LIKE THIS INCREDIBLY HOT AND AMAZING FEELING!"
That'd be like me, saying "I FUCKING HATE GOLDEN GRAHAMS!" *Om nom* "I FUCKING HATE THEM!"
I also know a woman who was raped as a child. She grew up hating boys, and now... well... is a lesbian.
I also know a woman who was molested as a child by another woman. She grew up bi sexual.
I study psychology, and this is one of the things that interests me. Practically, everyone that has come to me to talk(I am always the one everyone runs to cry to.[yay me])... if they had a perfectly normal childhood, (Normal social status, not the outcast...etc) they grew up vanilla. On the other hand, if they had a traumatizing childhood, at one point or another, they grew up with little quirks and fetishes. Fetishes lead to desire, and desire leads to ... whatever they want it to lead to. Such as having 1 night stands with skinny black men, or having a "girls night out".
You want to know why homosexual exist? There is far to many reasons to list. It could come from a hatred of ones own parents, such with men- the mother figure. It could come from what I mentioned. It could come from simply wanting to rebel and wanting to be different, and sure, they could just be born gay. There could be many, many reasons. There is no definitive answer to that.
EDIT-
And as for choice- Again, no. My friends didn't choose to have what happened to them as kids. They can't really help the urges they get, like when my buddy is watching porn, or doing whatever it is he does. He can't just say "NO! I DON'T LIKE THIS INCREDIBLY HOT AND AMAZING FEELING!"
That'd be like me, saying "I FUCKING HATE GOLDEN GRAHAMS!" *Om nom* "I FUCKING HATE THEM!"
#8
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Posted 20 December 2008 - 08:00 PM
There exceptions to every rule. I guess the only gay person I know knew up in shitty house hold. No, she was not molested. Never. But she grew up with 8 siblings and she was next to last. From what she said, she had relationships with men and never liked it as much. It was not until she met her Carla that she thought about dating girls. She had been with that same person for years until money troubles brought them apart. I also remember that one user who used to post here said she always felt different, but it was not until she was MUCH older did she realize it was because she liked girls..
or this one messed up girl I knew in High School. She got rapped from her adoptive father until she was 14! But to this day she does not date girls. She loves the dudes more then anyone I ever saw. Or the kid my brother knew in grade school. As he told me once, this kid asked him over for a game of "Cops and Robbers." He went over and the kid said, "You be the cop and I'll be the robber. Now spank me! I have been one bad robber!" My brother got uncomfortable and said, "My mother is calling me" and left. Years later when he saw him again he found that this kid was gay. Or the friend I knew who had a good life at home. Good parents, good home, average life. Now he is SO far back in the closet he's finding holiday gifts from the 70s.. So I guess Dues is right to say that it more then one factor. I just have to admit that it is hard for me to accept the fact that shitty lives make homosexuals. Because that means that if their molestation scars could be overcome (with lots of time and work of corse) then so could the same sex feelings, and I am not for that at all. People should be who they are.
or this one messed up girl I knew in High School. She got rapped from her adoptive father until she was 14! But to this day she does not date girls. She loves the dudes more then anyone I ever saw. Or the kid my brother knew in grade school. As he told me once, this kid asked him over for a game of "Cops and Robbers." He went over and the kid said, "You be the cop and I'll be the robber. Now spank me! I have been one bad robber!" My brother got uncomfortable and said, "My mother is calling me" and left. Years later when he saw him again he found that this kid was gay. Or the friend I knew who had a good life at home. Good parents, good home, average life. Now he is SO far back in the closet he's finding holiday gifts from the 70s.. So I guess Dues is right to say that it more then one factor. I just have to admit that it is hard for me to accept the fact that shitty lives make homosexuals. Because that means that if their molestation scars could be overcome (with lots of time and work of corse) then so could the same sex feelings, and I am not for that at all. People should be who they are.
#9
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Posted 20 December 2008 - 11:19 PM
Considering being gay is just the same result as NOT being gay, I got no clue as to whether or not it has to do with some science reason or what-not. I like the woman body. Fuck, I like the woman body a lot. Now, is it free will that I like to grope the boobies, or is science telling me to grab and hold and lick like a crazy man because of a certain childhood upbringing? Either way I don't care, I just like boobies. And I don't think being gay should have any different kind of considerations; not everything is about traumatized events in our pasts that have to explain how we are now. Some people just love the cock. What’s wrong with it being that simple?
A more serious question should be: Writing gay/slash fanfiction: Is it free will, or some genetic DNA code that can be 'cured'? Ali?
[edit]HA! I edited my post while you're will still typing, Ratty. Now your quoting of me makes you look stupid. Stupid!
HA!
A more serious question should be: Writing gay/slash fanfiction: Is it free will, or some genetic DNA code that can be 'cured'? Ali?
[edit]HA! I edited my post while you're will still typing, Ratty. Now your quoting of me makes you look stupid. Stupid!
HA!
6620
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9:06
#10
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Posted 20 December 2008 - 11:34 PM
QUOTE ("John Roberts":17svduf6)
Considering being gay is just the same result as NOT being gay, I got no clue as whether or not it has to do with some science reason or what-not. I know I like the woman body. I like the woman body a lot. Now is it free will that I like to grope the boobies, or is science telling me to grab and hold and lick like a crazy man? Either way I don't care, I just like it. And I don't think being gay should have any different kind of considerations.
A more serious question should be: Writing gay/slash fanfiction: Is it free will, or some genetic DNA code that can be 'cured'? Ali?
A more serious question should be: Writing gay/slash fanfiction: Is it free will, or some genetic DNA code that can be 'cured'? Ali?
x3
I realized I didn't actually state any of my own thoughts on this. I'd say it can be nature or nurture, though it's certainly not "unnatural" whether it's caused by one the other or both.
I don't really think it's possible (for most people anyway) to "choose" to find a certain or both sexes attractive, though it's certainly possible to not realize that you do.
As for abuse, that might happen in some cases (which I would say is a infinitely better outcome than having the person become abusive themselves, which is typical) but I certainly wouldn't think that applies to the majority, and even such cases as you mentioned there might not be a real cause/action connection. Remember people thought flies came from meat for a while
#11
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Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:51 AM
Yeah, I can move this to peaceful debates if you want.
#12
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#13
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 04:34 PM
I know a couple gays at my school that claim they are so because they think the female anatomy is disgusting.
#14
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Posted 26 December 2008 - 08:17 PM
There was actually a study done in France (I think it was France) to see how the brains of young children (ages 5-12, I think) respond to the different smells made by both the male and female body. Both boys and girls were tested, and a few of the results came in homosexual. Last I heard, they were still doing tests to see if that response was trained (possibly by molestation, as Deus.EXE mentions above) or if the kids were just born that way. But this was a few years ago since I read about this, so I don't know what they've found out since then.
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#15
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 03:34 AM
Sorry not to add much with that last post but in time I'm sure all forms of social discrimination will be banned. It hasn't right now because corruption stands in the way of the truth. That should answer your question whether it is a choice.
#16
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Posted 27 December 2008 - 06:45 PM
I think that there's 2 parts to this... Yes, there are people who didn't exactly wake up one day and decide to be gay... But there are are also those who choose to be, such as prison inmates and collage girls...
As for outright banning of all social discrimination: That wouldn't do any real good good. It's human nature to dislike and distrust that which is different from us. This isn't something that can be changed through laws and learned tollerance. The rich and poor won't hate eachother less just because the law says they have to, nor will various religions or other groups of people. The real world isn't Barney & Friends... To answer the old question: No, we can't all just get along. There'll always be some dividing force between people. Don't get me wrong... I'd like to have a world where no one's out to get anyone else and that we could all be friends... But it's a pipe dream... It's not humanly possible to achive that goal... Not without sacrificing our humanity to become something like the brainwashed masses in Demolition Man...
As for outright banning of all social discrimination: That wouldn't do any real good good. It's human nature to dislike and distrust that which is different from us. This isn't something that can be changed through laws and learned tollerance. The rich and poor won't hate eachother less just because the law says they have to, nor will various religions or other groups of people. The real world isn't Barney & Friends... To answer the old question: No, we can't all just get along. There'll always be some dividing force between people. Don't get me wrong... I'd like to have a world where no one's out to get anyone else and that we could all be friends... But it's a pipe dream... It's not humanly possible to achive that goal... Not without sacrificing our humanity to become something like the brainwashed masses in Demolition Man...
Projection: If Intruder Organsim reaches civilized areas...
Entire world population infected 2,7000 hours from first contact.
#17
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Posted 28 December 2008 - 03:50 PM
I don't know... I personally have gotten along with lots of people who didn't agree with my religious beliefs. Sure, I wish that they saw my point of view. But they don't see it that way, and they really wouldn't even want to try to see my point if I acted like a discriminating jerk about the issue.
But back on topic, I agree that nobody ever suddenly decided their sexuality one day. So it's not a choice in that way. But as anyone who's ever decided to hold on to their virginity knows, you can choose whether or not to follow through on those sexual urges. Even change them. It's just more slow and difficult since it took situations in one's life to make drawn to the same or the opposite sex.
But back on topic, I agree that nobody ever suddenly decided their sexuality one day. So it's not a choice in that way. But as anyone who's ever decided to hold on to their virginity knows, you can choose whether or not to follow through on those sexual urges. Even change them. It's just more slow and difficult since it took situations in one's life to make drawn to the same or the opposite sex.
I believe in what I want to believe in, you believe in what you want to believe in, so when someone wants to believe in something, no one will know what to believe!
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#18
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Posted 28 December 2008 - 05:00 PM
I can't answer from experience, but I too am of the mindset that at least in general it's not a choice. I'm pretty confident from a variety of reasons that at least the overwhelming majority of people who are homosexual didn't choose to be that way, it just happened to them. I have at least (possibly two, I don't bother him about it) friend who is homosexual, and I know that I've heard people claim that he told them he was homosexual even at a fairly young age. If my other friend is, then he has been since he was around 12. At that age I doubt anyone can just choose to be gay, you know?
Not to mention the possible parallels between it and sexual fetishes. I know that most people don't just choose those, now do they? It's something more, often present from a young age if sources like Wikipedia are to be trusted, and again makes me believe that they're either born in or formed at a very young age by something.
That of course is the tricky part. What causes it? I'm of the mindset that something like sexual attraction is so strongly integrated into the way our brain is structured that nothing short of malformity could cause it to be homosexual. You can't choose it, and no experience you have could possibly change it, at least not on the same level as those born with it. I could easily see experiences like rape or molesting causing you to have a separate hatred toward a specific gender, but I don't think that could cause you to like the other inordinately, even if we weren't talking about homosexuality.
Hormones... that I might be inclined to believe as a possible cause. Or at least part of it. I doubt that hormonal treatment after you've reached adulthood could do a darn thing about it, but I'd bet that it does have some effect during development on the structure of your brain that might cause homosexuality to develop. Too early to notice it was going to happen, I'd bet, but possibly a factor nonetheless. It's fairly natural to believe that this is the case with, say particularly feminine males who are gay or partiuclarly masculine females who are gay, but even then I'm not so sure it's hormones so much as brain dysfunction that causes the personality quirks. Physical quirks on the other hand are directly correlated... at least with masculine females.
It's all very complicated in the end I guess, which is one reason we haven't cracked the source yet. I'll just reiterate that I believe that it's innate or inflicted in my opinion, not a choice.
The rest of the discussion I'll just leave for the moment I suppose.
Not to mention the possible parallels between it and sexual fetishes. I know that most people don't just choose those, now do they? It's something more, often present from a young age if sources like Wikipedia are to be trusted, and again makes me believe that they're either born in or formed at a very young age by something.
That of course is the tricky part. What causes it? I'm of the mindset that something like sexual attraction is so strongly integrated into the way our brain is structured that nothing short of malformity could cause it to be homosexual. You can't choose it, and no experience you have could possibly change it, at least not on the same level as those born with it. I could easily see experiences like rape or molesting causing you to have a separate hatred toward a specific gender, but I don't think that could cause you to like the other inordinately, even if we weren't talking about homosexuality.
Hormones... that I might be inclined to believe as a possible cause. Or at least part of it. I doubt that hormonal treatment after you've reached adulthood could do a darn thing about it, but I'd bet that it does have some effect during development on the structure of your brain that might cause homosexuality to develop. Too early to notice it was going to happen, I'd bet, but possibly a factor nonetheless. It's fairly natural to believe that this is the case with, say particularly feminine males who are gay or partiuclarly masculine females who are gay, but even then I'm not so sure it's hormones so much as brain dysfunction that causes the personality quirks. Physical quirks on the other hand are directly correlated... at least with masculine females.
It's all very complicated in the end I guess, which is one reason we haven't cracked the source yet. I'll just reiterate that I believe that it's innate or inflicted in my opinion, not a choice.
The rest of the discussion I'll just leave for the moment I suppose.
#19
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Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:20 PM
I think one question people have to ask is, if this is a choice, then why would anyone chose to be part of a group that has to fight for basic marriage rights? Why would any person, who knows of how hard it can be, chose to be this way? if someone knew that they could change the way they feel (I don't think they can, but suppose) and become the norm, then why would they chose to stay in a lifestyle that is harder then most? Because I believe that it is not a choice one has to make. If someone is bi, then they can.
I guess you can say it is a choice in some ways. They can chose to accept that they will never get sexual fulfillment from the opposite sex. Or they can chose to live a lie.
I guess you can say it is a choice in some ways. They can chose to accept that they will never get sexual fulfillment from the opposite sex. Or they can chose to live a lie.
#20
Ratty Randnums
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Posted 28 December 2008 - 10:53 PM
QUOTE ("FreakyFilmFan4ever":1szkfy6o)
But back on topic, I agree that nobody ever suddenly decided their sexuality one day. So it's not a choice in that way. But as anyone who's ever decided to hold on to their virginity knows, you can choose whether or not to follow through on those sexual urges. Even change them.
*facepalm* no you can't. God isn't going to change your sexuality, did you even watch the short educational toon I made the topic for, or were you afraid to see things from others points of views (like, say, psychologists and other medical professionals)? Anyone who tells you God has changed their sexual desires is lying my friend, if you think he's changed yours (like killing your sex drive) you're fooling yourself.
QUOTE ("FreakyFilmFan4ever":1szkfy6o)
It's just more slow and difficult since it took situations in one's life to make drawn to the same or the opposite sex.
No, it could be something someone is born with, a natural attribute of a person. You wouldn't say, if in the bible it said people with red hair were sinning, that they could pray hard enough and their hair would change. They could dye it and pretend (and many would sadly) but they would still be sinful redheads, with the hairs roots ever trying to breath chemically free.
QUOTE ("Telgin":1szkfy6o)
I can't answer from experience, but I too am of the mindset that at least in general it's not a choice. I'm pretty confident from a variety of reasons that at least the overwhelming majority of people who are homosexual didn't choose to be that way, it just happened to them. I have at least (possibly two, I don't bother him about it) friend who is homosexual, and I know that I've heard people claim that he told them he was homosexual even at a fairly young age. If my other friend is, then he has been since he was around 12. At that age I doubt anyone can just choose to be gay, you know?
Not to mention the possible parallels between it and sexual fetishes. I know that most people don't just choose those, now do they? It's something more, often present from a young age if sources like Wikipedia are to be trusted, and again makes me believe that they're either born in or formed at a very young age by something.
That of course is the tricky part. What causes it? I'm of the mindset that something like sexual attraction is so strongly integrated into the way our brain is structured that nothing short of malformity could cause it to be homosexual. You can't choose it, and no experience you have could possibly change it, at least not on the same level as those born with it. I could easily see experiences like rape or molesting causing you to have a separate hatred toward a specific gender, but I don't think that could cause you to like the other inordinately, even if we weren't talking about homosexuality.
Hormones... that I might be inclined to believe as a possible cause. Or at least part of it. I doubt that hormonal treatment after you've reached adulthood could do a darn thing about it, but I'd bet that it does have some effect during development on the structure of your brain that might cause homosexuality to develop. Too early to notice it was going to happen, I'd bet, but possibly a factor nonetheless. It's fairly natural to believe that this is the case with, say particularly feminine males who are gay or partiuclarly masculine females who are gay, but even then I'm not so sure it's hormones so much as brain dysfunction that causes the personality quirks. Physical quirks on the other hand are directly correlated... at least with masculine females.
It's all very complicated in the end I guess, which is one reason we haven't cracked the source yet. I'll just reiterate that I believe that it's innate or inflicted in my opinion, not a choice.
The rest of the discussion I'll just leave for the moment I suppose.
Not to mention the possible parallels between it and sexual fetishes. I know that most people don't just choose those, now do they? It's something more, often present from a young age if sources like Wikipedia are to be trusted, and again makes me believe that they're either born in or formed at a very young age by something.
That of course is the tricky part. What causes it? I'm of the mindset that something like sexual attraction is so strongly integrated into the way our brain is structured that nothing short of malformity could cause it to be homosexual. You can't choose it, and no experience you have could possibly change it, at least not on the same level as those born with it. I could easily see experiences like rape or molesting causing you to have a separate hatred toward a specific gender, but I don't think that could cause you to like the other inordinately, even if we weren't talking about homosexuality.
Hormones... that I might be inclined to believe as a possible cause. Or at least part of it. I doubt that hormonal treatment after you've reached adulthood could do a darn thing about it, but I'd bet that it does have some effect during development on the structure of your brain that might cause homosexuality to develop. Too early to notice it was going to happen, I'd bet, but possibly a factor nonetheless. It's fairly natural to believe that this is the case with, say particularly feminine males who are gay or partiuclarly masculine females who are gay, but even then I'm not so sure it's hormones so much as brain dysfunction that causes the personality quirks. Physical quirks on the other hand are directly correlated... at least with masculine females.
It's all very complicated in the end I guess, which is one reason we haven't cracked the source yet. I'll just reiterate that I believe that it's innate or inflicted in my opinion, not a choice.
The rest of the discussion I'll just leave for the moment I suppose.
See what I don't like here is things like "malformed" and "brain dysfunction", it has been shown to be perfectly natural and healthy in nature, just more uncommon, and uncommon does not equal a disorder, just a different order, and still a perfectly valid one.
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