120 replies to this topic

[Valerie Valens]

I think Miko is talking about how SatAM's not-so-subtle Sonic and Sally shipping feels forced and well, not really believable.

[Gojira007]

If she is, she's doing so very subtly; I haven't seen her mention Shipping much at all. Either way, though, Shipping preferences do not a "problematic" character make; if it did, you should just remove Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender, or Aeris and Tifa from Final Fantasy VII, and I'm pretty sure it would be a mistake to do so in both cases.

[Valerie Valens]

No, it affects how a character acts around one another, it can be a just as much as a stumbling block for characterization as other pitfalls.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Wow. I sleep for a little bit and the SonSal battles break out. Now I know why SatAM based movies aren't made. I wouldn't want to go into Development Hell with this situation.

[quote="Miko":82cmleit]

[quote={SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_geek.gif" alt=":geek:" title="Geek" /> )

Sonic's self awareness wasn't introduced until Sonic 3 games, which trickled down into the shows like AoStH and SatAM during the game's preproduction phase. When Sally was created, Sonic had turned from the more determined character in Sonic 1 & 2, to a self aware, ADD character in Sonic 3 and eventuality SatAM (during missions he would eat chilli dogs ["No Brainer], critique his looks inside a mirror ["Ultra Sonic"], annoy SWATbots for the heck of it [also "No Brainer", in the beginning], ect.)

By reviving the Sonic from the first game and throwing him in the mix with Sally, we eliminate most of the faults of the relationship, since both characters would be more focused on Robotnic than Sally trying to steer Sonic from ADD side-effects. Maybe Sonic could be shown as being self aware before the war, and his determination being a change he makes in himself to restore order on Mobius.

And now for something completely different:

Since this would be Sonic's origin story, does anyone actually KNOW how he got his incredible speed? Is it his shoes? If so, why can't Robotnic make a pair that does the same? Was he born with his speed? If so, when did he discover it?

Is this too many questions?

[Valerie Valens]

Wow. I sleep for a little bit and the SonSal battles break out. Now I know why SatAM based movies aren't made. I wouldn't want to go into Development Hell with this situation.

There's also the fact that all the SatAM movie pitch attempts from years back into the past to the most recent one were made by people who are the least capable of handling the task, both in attitude and in capability.

[Morgan]

Since this would be Sonic's origin story, does anyone actually KNOW how he got his incredible speed? Is it his shoes? If so, why can't Robotnic make a pair that does the same? Was he born with his speed? If so, when did he discover it?

I think it was explained in a clip of Fleetway, but I can't say it's canon. I don't think it was ever officially explained.

[Gojira007]

I've always preferred that Sonic's speed not have an origin and simply be something he was born with, personally.

[Gojira007]

It does to me. Sorry it didn't work out that way for you.

Hell, that's pretty much this argument in microcosm, isn't it? The very things that make Sally an interesting, engaging, and significant character to me seem to be the very qualities that make her a "liabliity" to you. There's no way such a discussion can really move forward, because the disagreement is just that fundamental.

[Gojira007]

No, Meeks, no. I'm saying I don't find Sally to BE detrimental to the story. I don't think she DOES sap the other characters of their ability to contribute to the heart of the story. You do. I don't agree with you, but there's no way to argue with you when our fundamental starting points are so different.

Is that a touch clearer?

[Gojira007]

Because all you've said is that other people COULD do what Sally does. The story COULD work without Sally if you re-jigger the origin of Robotnik's coup and alter characters so that they can pick up the slack Sally's absence would cause. But while it COULD be done that way, you've yet to offer me a compelling reason why it SHOULD. You think Sally flattens Sonic's character; I think she enhances it. You think Sally takes focus away from the others; I think she was an important character who deserved the focus she got.

See? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Our whole perceptions of this story and its characters are diametrically opposed to each other. The only thing furthering a discussion between the two of us ever yields is butting heads over and over, repeating our points ad nauseaum until everyone's sick of it.

So maybe we should just agree to disagree?

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Wow. I sleep for a little bit and the SonSal battles break out. Now I know why SatAM based movies aren't made. I wouldn't want to go into Development Hell with this situation.

There's also the fact that all the SatAM movie pitch attempts from years back into the past to the most recent one were made by people who are the least capable of handling the task, both in attitude and in capability.

I'll admit, even though I've been educated in the art of filmmaking, I have no means or connections of pushing a SatAM movie pitch at the moment. I'm just a fresh film graduate trying to find work in something that utilizes my education. Far shot from a big shot. That's not to say I won't do a SatAM movie in the future if I have the means, but I don't know that I will either. This topic is mainly for my own little edification.

I've always preferred that Sonic's speed not have an origin and simply be something he was born with, personally.

That's how I always pictured it... but maybe not having Sonic actually discover his speed until Robotnic's takeover forces Sonic to improvise.

[Morgan]

Miko, I do not have a problem with you disliking Sally and or that you feel that she should not be in a SatAM film or Archie. That's your opinion and I'm fine with it. The problem I am seeing, however, is you trying to pass this opinion off as a fact. The problem there being is nothing can be a fact without hard evidence. With that said, in all of your points, it is apparently not enough as myself and others still do not see why Sally is such a bad character. I think you'll find most of the community would accept your distaste for Sally, but they become annoyed when you try to state this as a fact without those hard evidence.

A suspected criminal cannot be convicted without the clear-cut evidence to take him or her down. You see where I'm going with this? As with Sally or even any other character or entity. You say she presents a problem to the cast or characters, etc...but where exactly is it, you and no one else, that you see Sally is holding Sonic back or presenting other problems?

What I am asking (not just to appease others and to keep a flame war from breaking out, but also to make it where you can state what you feel as well) is that when you make a point, actually pick something out of the source material (in this instance, the show or comic, some detail *in specific*) that backs up your claim. A white horse may be white, but how do we know it is if we don't see it? Let me also say in a more specific manner, that cannot be misconstrued, of what I mean of taking HARD evidence from the source material.

Let's take Antoine. Here is the claim made. "Antoine is a coward." Okay, fine...why is he a coward? Here is where your hard, clear-cut evidence is, straight from the source material. He is a coward because in the episode Sonic and the Secret Scrolls, when they landed the plane, Antoine was found covering his eyes asking if it was safe now while shivering in fear. This is the kind of proof I mean. I think, if you truly believe Sally is a bad character, that by providing evidence such as I have demonstrated that you may have people say to you "Oh, yeah, okay, that makes sense." If you can't find something from the source material to prove what you're saying, then just don't say it. (I say all this because it's apparently annoying everyone to have these statements made without the hard evidence). Not only that, but after this point is made, we don't know why it should be like that, which comes in more hard evidence.

Let me also be clear to everyone else. This does not just apply to Miko. If anyone wants to make a point or even refute it, you need that hard evidence to demonstrate your point, or it is better off not said. Debates have no room for personal opinions or emotions/feelings.

Also, this is just as important (and again, does not just apply to Miko but to everyone). Please be sure that what you're saying has a clear link and relevance to the topic you're posting it in. In a topic about pencil sharpeners, "I have to take a shit" makes no sense at all unless (of course that's a bad example) you can somehow show how you needing to take a shit is related to pencil sharpeners. It's annoying everyone, Miko, because you bring this up about Sally in every topic. This can count as spamming if you don't show also how it's relevant.

My post is designed to keep things under control without impeding anyone's right to an opinion.

[fishtheimpaler]

"Mina Mongoose"

There, someone said it