29 replies to this topic

[Valerie Valens]

EDITED

...and nothing of value is lost.

[chief]

Ugh ok guys shut down the attack Red band wagon. In less you are going to say something about the topic and not a full out attack VAL.

[fishtheimpaler]

Oh, and, uh, No More War, KILL GM and help the resulting poor.

Nice ad, Val!

Come on man, like we both don't already know a lot of that money would/will go straight into the pocket of executive bonuses (many of whom have departed sinking companies they helped crash with millions of dollars in bonuses they give themselves while laid-off workers get nothing) and the company crash only a little later. GM and other car companies are going to die because they don't provide a service large amounts of people can afford anymore, much less something that is needed with the cars already on the road slowly destroying the human habitability of the planet.

Agree. It will be rough on the workers, though. (Part of the reason GM has as much clout as it does is because of the UAW--it's in the workers' interests to keep the companies limping along as much as in the stockholders'.) Recessions generally hit the poor harder than the rich. It's a good idea to help the poor generally, and I doubt it will be politically possible to let GM fail without the US government funding GM's vested UAW pension obligations.

Recession doesn't get me off. It's a little overdue, though; lots of inefficient business around after over a decade and a half of economic expansion.

[Ratty Randnums]

So I don't get to say "Don't let the door hit your ass?" :<
Anyway yeah, this was inevitable result of letting short sighted corporations who's only concern is making money/short term gains run free. The world is about to be ass raped by the mistakes of the few idolized wealthy.

[Vlad Yvhv]

Wow... Give myself a coulple of days to collect my thoughts and topics explode...

I'm surprised I didn't see one obvious suggestion....
Pay based on actual work and the conditions of work, rather than position: The harder you work, the more demanding the work, and the more adverse conditions you work under, the more you get paid. This is the natural evolution of the equal pay for equal work concept. If you work a shitty job, you get paid more than someone who works a cushy job, who gets paid more than someone who just sits around not exerting themself. Let them keep their fancy job perks, but slash their paychecks and give that money to the guys and gals breaking their backs to keep the business going. I think that's a fair trade off... If you've got a nice office job, you can deal with not having a new car every year, or the latest cellphone, or a TV bigger than me. If yer out fighting the elements and generally getting your ass kicked by your job, then you deserve to be driven home in a limo every day to your personal castle with solid gold crapper... And if you disagree with that, yer either a rich person, or an enemy of the honest working folk...

[Ratty Randnums]

Wow... Give myself a coulple of days to collect my thoughts and topics explode...

I'm surprised I didn't see one obvious suggestion....
Pay based on actual work and the conditions of work, rather than position: The harder you work, the more demanding the work, and the more adverse conditions you work under, the more you get paid. This is the natural evolution of the equal pay for equal work concept. If you work a shitty job, you get paid more than someone who works a cushy job, who gets paid more than someone who just sits around not exerting themself. Let them keep their fancy job perks, but slash their paychecks and give that money to the guys and gals breaking their backs to keep the business going. I think that's a fair trade off... If you've got a nice office job, you can deal with not having a new car every year, or the latest cellphone, or a TV bigger than me. If yer out fighting the elements and generally getting your ass kicked by your job, then you deserve to be driven home in a limo every day to your personal castle with solid gold crapper... And if you disagree with that, yer either a rich person, or an enemy of the honest working folk...

You see the problem is that's the opposite of the capitalist view of everything (including air, water and human life) as a commodity from which to make the most money possible. The argument is that the jobs that require (or supposedly require) the "most training/skill" should get paid more because they are generally a more scarce commodity (and take more time to produce) than "less-skilled" labor.
But think about that, all of this corporate pay rests on the assumption that being, say, a CEO (golfing and maybe going to a meeting every now and then, ok maybe it's a little more difficult than that but I guarantee not harder than what corporations will make most of their other employees go through to maximize profits) is somehow so ungodly unimaginably hard that if you run a company into the ground from that position you still deserve a *severance pay* in the multi-millions.

[fishtheimpaler]

The management you're imagining is from some really inefficient business that kind of got knifed to death in the US in the late 70s, early 80s. Huge money high-level management these days tend to be work psychos who do 13-16 hours a day and go on vacations where they work all the time and then come home early because something has happened. In a sense wealth doesn't mean anything to them--they obviously don't have time to enjoy it--but in another sense it's deeply important to them how much money they have, as like an indicator of social dick size. I guess it can be said that they don't deserve the money, but it's difficult to cash out what that means. Maybe that companies could in fact negotiate them down and it would be better for the shareholders. (Less compansation in bad outcomes might be one possibility.) But I wouldn't do the job at any price, given the other opportunities I have.

[The Man]

Critical post - distribute, read, analzye at your own risk.

I want to know why people contradict themselves. I'm not going to agree or disagree with any individual but to make a general statement why does America claim to be free but charge a price on stuff like gas, food, clothing, water and many things you need to buy.

I thought it was a 'free' country? If that were true there would be no use for the word or situation of 'expense' in any of these posts. Maybe with stem cells and replication we are going to see the end of capitalism. Hopefully this doesn't lead to the end of democracy.

But I guess rights aren't being taken away and evidence isn't suppressed for a reason. If something were truly free there'd be no reason for denial and oppression.

This might or might not go hand and hand with the political weapon/leverage debates. Like what are you going to use the idea for? But humanity did have more sense than to let its government collapse on more than all its occasions.

Edit-probably shouldn't single out U.S. but a form of trade is born withing civilizations. It's also a reason for prosperity as well as conflict.

[Vlad Yvhv]

Critical post - distribute, read, analzye at your own risk.

I want to know why people contradict themselves. I'm not going to agree or disagree with any individual but to make a general statement why does America claim to be free but charge a price on stuff like gas, food, clothing, water and many things you need to buy.

I thought it was a 'free' country? If that were true there would be no use for the word or situation of 'expense' in any of these posts. Maybe with stem cells and replication we are going to see the end of capitalism. Hopefully this doesn't lead to the end of democracy.

But I guess rights aren't being taken away and evidence isn't suppressed for a reason. If something were truly free there'd be no reason for denial and oppression.

This might or might not go hand and hand with the political weapon/leverage debates. Like what are you going to use the idea for? But humanity did have more sense than to let its government collapse on more than all its occasions.

Edit-probably shouldn't single out U.S. but a form of trade is born withing civilizations. It's also a reason for prosperity as well as conflict.

Oh, don't most of us wish that's what they meant by "free"... No... The term is supposed to mean political/individual/religious freedoms, as guranteed by the constitution. Of course that really kinda died with the founding fathers... Now it's just a feel good slogan to help keep the general populace from realizing that we're a naton of the opressed...

You see the problem is that's the opposite of the capitalist view of everything (including air, water and human life) as a commodity from which to make the most money possible. The argument is that the jobs that require (or supposedly require) the "most training/skill" should get paid more because they are generally a more scarce commodity (and take more time to produce) than "less-skilled" labor.
But think about that, all of this corporate pay rests on the assumption that being, say, a CEO (golfing and maybe going to a meeting every now and then, ok maybe it's a little more difficult than that but I guarantee not harder than what corporations will make most of their other employees go through to maximize profits) is somehow so ungodly unimaginably hard that if you run a company into the ground from that position you still deserve a *severance pay* in the multi-millions.

That simply proves the point that captitalism is the enemy. Drop a CEO down to basement level and make them work a while as a janitor and they'll bitch and moan about how hard the job is... I did janitorial work back in highschool and found it an alright job.

[Anaesthesia]

I dunno, there are a good deal of white-collar jobs that involve tons of work, even if it's not manual labor. Doctors? Engineers? Lawyers? Teachers? Hell, even artsy-fartsy graphic designers have demanding schedules and have to pull all-nighters in front of a computer screen with all the stress of meeting deadlines. And while I'm not overly fond of the trickle-down approach to economics, I understand that even pasty fat CEOs need to pay their employees.

But on a lighter note...

Oh, bitchcakes, this isn't light at all. Fuck. Invisible hand, indeed.

Buckle your seatbelts, kids! We're in for quite a wild ride.