29 replies to this topic

[Vlad Yvhv]

Sadly, this is a case of "we told ya so"... Those of us who could see this looming on the horizon and warned about it were laughed at and dismissed as paranoid crackpots...

I've said it before and I'll no doubt say it again... This country started falling apart the moment Columbus landed... My ancestors had a thriving civilization for thousands of years before that. They knew that it didn't pay to be so greedy...

But nowadays, it's all greed and corruption and no accountability until everything falls apart because the nails holding up the foundation have all been stolen and resold to build the the upper stories (and stolen again and resold to build the roof [and stolen once more and sold to be melted down into the weather vein, which causes the whole thing to fall in under its own weight]). Nobody wants to think about what their immediate profits will cause in the future... It doesn't make them as much money immediatly to plan things out right and do things by the book. And in the society of the past few hundred years, money is everything. It is ironic that their lust for money has finally shot them in the feet...

The real quesion is: "When the same thing will happen to the money-hungry society that caused this problem in the first place?" I don't know the answer to that one, but I hope it's fairly soon. At least then, we'll be able to hopefully build one that works properly... If only for a little while...

[chief]

Your American Native?

[Vlad Yvhv]

Yes, I am. Muscogee (Creek if you prefer), Cherokee, and who knows what else... I'm an enrolled tribal member of the Creek nation (double enrollment is either forbidden or illegal [I forget which]). Paradoxically fortunatly and unfortunatly, I was adopted by a white rural family... As such, I haven't exactly had what would be considred full access to the remnants of my people's culture. Though, on the other hand, it has actually raised my social standing, compared to where I'd've been had I grown up with my biological mom... There's more paradoxial stuff associated with it, but this's a discussion for another topic...

[chief]

Thats cool. I'm... Scottish Canadian


My brother in law is Métis. Well... He is like a quorter Métis which makes him technicly 1/8th native... But as Métis now have native status he gets that too. So all 4 of my sisters kids get that as well.. Free schooling etc etc etc...

[Jman1236]

Jim Cramer's View on the GM Bailout

If Cramer thinks this would screw us, it's game over man! GAME OVER!

[chief]

Our economy is so intertwined in the American shit hole economy so its buggering us up. Well.. To a extent. We are starting to trade elsewhere and set our economy up so when America does finally fall on its rotting money whoring ass the majority of Canada should escape without too much damage.

Well... That's if our Asian market holds up, and China is in no big trouble seeing as they like to buy other countries debts for the fun of it.

[Ratty Randnums]

1: Nationalized healthcare: You want the government--THIS screwed up asshole government that can't even get our school system working right--to be running everyone's healthcare? THIS goverment that you think is a terrible, bloated bunch of fatcats to be in charge of other people's health? Sorry, bucko, but just because something works elsewhere doesn't mean it works here. That's the sorry-ass truth.

Maybe people would be more interested in making things work if they felt it involved them huh? Let people die in the streets (or rather quietly in their homes where we don't have to look at them) as long as you've got health insurance and don't have to do a little extra paperwork? Right wingers go on about "freedom" and "life" a whole lot, but what's this right? The right to be born, be stepped on and die because the government/people that take part of your earnings and go on and on about how great it/they are, can't be bothered to provide basic necessities for it's/their people?

2: Higher taxes: Yeah, well, we don't and shouldn't have to pay high-out-of-the-ass taxes. Seems we ended up going to war with Britain during the American Revolution and taxation without representation and high taxes was one damned big part of it. Kiss my ass.

Yeah, because I'm sure you'd be in that top 10% or whatever that might have to give back some of the hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars worth of yearly tax cuts they've gotten under Bush.

3: Seems to me that 9/11 happened because a bunch of poor, pissed off Islamics who hate everyone that isn't them decided to start a war on our own soil and the rest of the world is somehow surprised when we retaliate? Well, flip it the other way. We get attacked and do nothing. Then the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of pussies who can't hold our own.when we're attacked. Yeah, that sounds like a great plan.

I love how you think everything is so simple. These same "Islamics" as you call them were "freedom fighters" when they were fighting the Russians and we were giving them weapons (why, even Rambo commented on how "noble" they are!) incidentally it was our coming onto sacred land during the first Gulf that first upset Osama Bin Laden, it wasn't quite "just because we're not like them".

4:Tax the hell out of companies and rich people? Ring, are you serious? Are you out of your canuck fu**king mind? THERE WOULD NEVER BE AN INCENTIVE TO SUCCEED! The country would be a nation of poor, bitter people who can't rise above poverty because the goverment will just take all the money they work for. Why should I bother to do better for myself and bust my ass at work if the goverment is just going to take it all and either fund itself or give it to someone who sits on their sorry ass all day. Maybe it works for you because you're the guy collecting the check, but I don't believe in a world where you're sucking at the goverment titty from birth to grave. To hell with it!

Never mind that upward mobility is practically non existant as the middle class shrinks while wealth is accumulated in smaller and smaller circles. Don't worry Red, they didn't lie to you, you really can do anything you work hard enough for right? *snicker* Just keep telling yourself that, and they'll keep giving you your bottle.

Here's a little economic lesson for you: Uber-taxing companies leads to cutting jobs, which ends up leading to the company folding. No companies equal NO JOBS! NO JOBS EQUAL NO MONEY FOR ANYBODY! DUUUUUUUUHH!

Whereas zero government regulation leads to the great situation we're in now! Oh, and taxation doesn't go to the point of driving companies out of buissness, because then they wouldn't be able to tax them the next year, making the government lose revinew. Who taught you economics, Bill O'Reilly?

But what do I know, what with actually LIVING HERE!

Not a lot apparently.

PS- I'll say again as someone who voted for Bush for the most powerful position on the planet in 2004 "just to piss everyone off" by his own admittance. I don't exactly see what legs you have to bitch on.

[Valerie Valens]

It's so nice to see a Canadian look down his nose at us and tell us everything that's wrong with us. Makes me feel all fuzzy inside. Wiat, that's not fuzziness, it's my middle-finger coming up and aiming right at your asinine face.

You are an imbecile for bringing nationality to assert your argument. This is why people laugh at Americans.

1: Nationalized healthcare: You want the government--THIS screwed up asshole government that can't even get our school system working right--to be running everyone's healthcare? THIS goverment that you think is a terrible, bloated bunch of fatcats to be in charge of other people's health? Sorry, bucko, but just because something works elsewhere doesn't mean it works here. That's the sorry-ass truth.

Base assertion fallacy; you need to base your assertion on something more factual than your histrionic vitriol.

Higher taxes: Yeah, well, we don't and shouldn't have to pay high-out-of-the-ass taxes. Seems we ended up going to war with Britain during the American Revolution and taxation without representation and high taxes was one damned big part of it. Kiss my ass.

You are an idiot, and I don't mean the garden variety of idiot. I am talking about Joe the Plumber grade idiocy here. Did you even take a look at the tax plan? People of income brackets lower than $250 000 per year will get a tax cut across the board. That means YOU will benefit from it even if you earn a little over $250 000 a year, because only the dollars above the $250 000 mark will experience larger taxes.

Seems to me that 9/11 happened because a bunch of poor, pissed off Islamics who hate everyone that isn't them decided to start a war on our own soil and the rest of the world is somehow surprised when we retaliate? Well, flip it the other way. We get attacked and do nothing. Then the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of pussies who can't hold our own.when we're attacked. Yeah, that sounds like a great plan.

9/11 happened because the US was on middle-eastern soil. Ron Paul is right on this issue. The US needs to stop sticking its dick in other countries' business otherwise they are just going to paint a target over themselves. This isn't just a recent thing. The US paid back the Pearl Harbour attack with 2 atomic bombs to civillian cities, the US responded to Chile electing a socialist president by assasinating him and putting that genocidal dictator Augustus Pinochet in his place.

...and to be honest, doing nothing but to improve defenses is the best course of action here. The people responsible for preventing such attacks are partly to blame because they had their thumbs stuck up their asses when the twin towers got Tetris'd. How many people have died as a result of the Iraq war? How many inhumane atrocities are commited by the US troops in the Iraq war?

Tax the hell out of companies and rich people? Ring, are you serious? Are you out of your canuck fu**king mind? THERE WOULD NEVER BE AN INCENTIVE TO SUCCEED! The country would be a nation of poor, bitter people who can't rise above poverty because the goverment will just take all the money they work for. Why should I bother to do better for myself and bust my ass at work if the goverment is just going to take it all and either fund itself or give it to someone who sits on their sorry ass all day. Maybe it works for you because you're the guy collecting the check, but I don't believe in a world where you're sucking at the goverment titty from birth to grave. To hell with it!

This kind of mentality is exactly the reason the US economy is in a pickle. The tax increases are pretty marginal, and quite honestly, those 5% earning 80% of the national wealth could stand to part with a few more thousand dollars.

Here's a little economic lesson for you: Uber-taxing companies leads to cutting jobs, which ends up leading to the company folding. No companies equal NO JOBS! NO JOBS EQUAL NO MONEY FOR ANYBODY! DUUUUUUUUHH!

It's a gross oversimplifcation, if you have any knowledge of how the economy works, you would realise that it is not the case. Arguing extreme results over small changes is a sign of gross ignorance.

I will agree that these companies shouldn't be bailed out. There needs to be genuine consequences to fiscal irresponsibility. The loan companies went down because politicians pressured them to take high risk clients who, in times of normal or high interest, couldn't make mortgage payments and when interest started going higher, assloads of houses were forclosed, which is what started all this.

Actually, it happened because people like McCain campaigned to repeal the 1933 act that was set in place in response to the great depression. Corrupt investors then suddenly find themselves free to do more morally questionable business practices and that ended up costing the nation 1/3 of the national federal budget.

But what do I know, what with actually LIVING HERE!

The voices that speak otherwise are more numerous and louder.

PS

[fishtheimpaler]

Higher taxes: Yeah, well, we don't and shouldn't have to pay high-out-of-the-ass taxes. Seems we ended up going to war with Britain during the American Revolution and taxation without representation and high taxes was one damned big part of it. Kiss my ass.

You are an idiot, and I don't mean the garden variety of idiot. I am talking about Joe the Plumber grade idiocy here. Did you even take a look at the tax plan? People of income brackets lower than $250 000 per year will get a tax cut across the board. That means YOU will benefit from it even if you earn a little over $250 000 a year, because only the dollars above the $250 000 mark will experience larger taxes.

Samuel Wurzelbacher is dead on, but I don't know if it's idiocy. A lot of Republican support from the middle-class comes from people who, while not "legally wealthy" for tax and entitlement purposes, nonetheless identify with the wealthy, either for some direct emotional rush or because they actually plan to become wealthy. Hence Joe's "what will this mean for my hypothetical plumbing business?" fixation. One could argue whether the identification is pathological, or the plan unlikely--I would argue both.

The notion of the "tax revolt" in America is bivalent and fascinating; the tension between license/freedom and tyranny/government is always particularly tense and powerful.

Yes, the American revolution was basically triggered by the British crown attempting to increase America's taxes, without the American colonists having an official representative in Parliament. There's a flip side to that. The notion of one-to-one representation was foreign to the British Parliament at the time; there were large English cities that were without a single representative, while old empty manors sent people to London. Furthermore, the British Crown had just taken on crushing debt fighting a war against the French that in large part ensured the colonies' security from invasion--what is known in the United States as the French and Indian War. And there were other causes of revolution as well (among other things, the beginnings of American urban poverty--whenever the political agitation leading up to hostilities needed an angry mob of Bostonites without much else to do, one always seemed to be on hand).

But tax revolts continued after America won independence from Britain, and indeed almost destroyed the country. Massachusetts fell into civil war in 1786 and 1787when farmer's revolted against the state government's efforts to tax them to pay for the continental government's war debt (an essential foreign policy move to cement the nation's ties with France and the validity of its coin).

You may notice the importance of the year 1787: the Massachusetts civil war led to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia that ended the Articles of Confederation government and created the current Constitution, which not only stated that the new federal government was responsible for the continental war debt, but gave it strong powers to tax.

Tax revolts--in the literal sense--had only one more go, the Whiskey Rebellion of 1791-1794, against the federal government's excise tax on whiskey. George Washington himself led a large armed force to Pennsylvania to crush the rebels.

That's always the tension in America, madness and revolt in Boston and reason, power and control in Philadelphia.

Oh, and, uh, No More War, KILL GM and help the resulting poor.

Nice ad, Val!

[chief]

I don't think we are sticking up for you. Just joining in some fun.


As for the war of 1812 bit technicly we were a British colony still, and we do use that a lot. So Id bring up something like Vimy Ridge in WW1, Juno Beach in WW2, other stuff up in till how first soldiers in Afghanistan were the Canadian JTF2 who were doing recon and actually capturing Taliban the moment war was finally declared as in this photo



Yea thats a USAF helicopter but Canadian JTF2.


As well our country seems to be doing quite fine and was actually reconised to have one of the best banking systems in the world after this world economy shut down. As at no point in time can we use money in loans etc that doesn't exist. The government regulates everything, and tells the companies and banks how much they can spend and loan out.


And Red I am sorry to see that after all those debates we once shared over the war on Iraq and everything else that you are still as un educated as you are on why Bin Ladin attacked America, and who those people really are. Not every reason to attack America is cause you do things difrently.. Actually almost none of the reasons are that. I could write up a essay on why I think America should be attacked because of their global policys etc.


There are reasons why we all hate America, and its not cause you do things diffrent. Its because America has thought its self to be top shit, so in turn it can treat the world as its playground. School Yard Bully. But guess what, those fucks that America picks on will fight back eventually, and win.

[Valerie Valens]

fish : The more you know. I am pretty rusty on the US history so thanks for that.

Anyways to add to Chief's last paragraph, Americans only have the balls to attack others when they are armed to the teeth and travel in numbers, and even then they are often too much of a pussy to attack anything other than civillians and poorly-armed insurgents. When captured alone, they are not like Rambo, they piss themselves and beg for mercy.

[Ratty Randnums]

Oh, and, uh, No More War, KILL GM and help the resulting poor.

Nice ad, Val!

Come on man, like we both don't already know a lot of that money would/will go straight into the pocket of executive bonuses (many of whom have departed sinking companies they helped crash with millions of dollars in bonuses they give themselves while laid-off workers get nothing) and the company crash only a little later. GM and other car companies are going to die because they don't provide a service large amounts of people can afford anymore, much less something that is needed with the cars already on the road slowly destroying the human habitability of the planet.

And yeah it is odd the way so many poor stick up for the extremely wealthy, because they still buy the idea that they'll be rich one day, even though the facts and hard numbers clearly show otherwise. I guess if you tell someone a lie (like america is the land of opportunity/can do whatever you want) enough after a while they'll believe you even in the face of it's plain falsehood.

[chief]

...Ratty is American.

And thanks for calling me a canuck bastard.. Thats not what we do best by the way.. Cause.. Well your economy effects ours. We've just stated whats happening and why its happening. Uhm... Its going to effect us a bit either way.

I'll edit mine too then since..Yes. I called you un educated on the "they attack us cause we are different" Matter when it is a lot deaper the that. Other then that I really did not mean you were un educated on any level.