77 replies to this topic

[Ratty Randnums]

Yep, typical religion thread. Next will come the Great War.

Not really, no one has gone batshit crazy. Also the last time we had a "great war" was years ago. The main fellow defending conservative christian dogma was if I recall so badly owned (due largely to our own resident libertarian Momiji, who has insane pimped out debating skillz) that he quit the forum. Religious discussion since then has tended to while of course getting heated, shyed away from this all out "epic war" quality you're talking about.

Also one line posts that add nothing like that are spam >.> I wouldn't say anything but a LOT of your posts are like this, I know you've seen the rules, please respect them and by extension this board by at least trying to follow them.

PS- also in a typical religion thread there are a lot of unfounded claims, we are making an attempt to let these books (that so many people *act* like they read) speak for themselves.

[randomizer]

Well I don't consider religious debates worth putting effort into. I used to be quite a lengthy poster on the subject, but I have learned that it doesn't matter what you say you will never change people's opinions with a few lines of text. So while I respect your posts on the matter, I consider religious debating itself spam and/or flamebaiting because there is no useful purpose for it and it just makes people angry for no good reason. I am not saying that this is your intention, but it happens. In fact, several forums I am a member of removed any "free speech" sections purely because of political and religious debates. Fortunately, they do not seem to be the norm here.

[chief]

Because of where this is going...Moving

[The Man]

Do you see the problem with taking one side of the debate. There'd be no conflict or challenges if your idea were absolute.

If god/allah/budda/whomever were unchallengable we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's as simple as it gets.

[Ratty Randnums]

Well I don't consider religious debates worth putting effort into. I used to be quite a lengthy poster on the subject, but I have learned that it doesn't matter what you say you will never change people's opinions with a few lines of text. So while I respect your posts on the matter, I consider religious debating itself spam and/or flamebaiting because there is no useful purpose for it and it just makes people angry for no good reason. I am not saying that this is your intention, but it happens. In fact, several forums I am a member of removed any "free speech" sections purely because of political and religious debates. Fortunately, they do not seem to be the norm here.

I think you miss the point of a debate, not an augment, but a debate. No matter how many Doctors of Truthology or whatever someone like Richard Dawkins debates, he's not going to have any of them admit they're wrong dinosaurs lived 4000 years ago. And no matter how many times Obama and McCain debate Obama isn't going to turn McCain into a democrat and vice verse. A debate is mainly for the spectators, the non-participants. To shed light on a subject and allow them to see which position they find makes the most sense/agree with.
Not to say it is useless for debators as well, it may shed light on things or show them ways of thinking they hadn't seen before. As oppossed to an argument which is mainly just one person trying to show their correctness to another by screaming the loudest. Faux is pretty bad for this.

Unchallengeable? How about we were given free will to make our own choices.

Lol basic contradiction, if god is all knowing and all powerful, how can there be freewill? If he started the game knowing everything that was going to happen ("destiny" if you like in his "great plan") then how is there free will? Even if all following events just happened as a result of his creation of all things and then unfolded as he knew it was going to happen (again all knowing and all powerful, so it would happen exactly as he knew it would from the start) then how is any part of it "free"? How is anything really "chosen" by a person?

[The Man]

Free will? What about the religious fundamentalists/oppressors who don't want you to have any. The point is they think they are right and can't stand that their beliefs are challenged. This could apply to anyone.

It's always been up to humanity to draw the fine line between right/wrong, morality/immorality, recents events are simply the latest example even if it has gone on before any of us were born. It doesn't occur to people to take up the challenge of considering other possiblities.

I don't want to contradict myself but there's a difference between free-will and oppression. People who'd use phrases like 'must' 'have to' 'you have no choice' for the 'wrong reason.' People who'd talk to incite others instead of trying to persuade them.

At this point I'm sure religion has commited a crime and if the athiests are so concerned about it why don't they just file another lawsuit with a fair court? The net will only get you so far.

And finally it all leads around to it being challenged. That if your idea were absolute we wouldn't need 'others' to decide things for us and vice-versa(the state can also be wrong.)

[chief]

Fundamentalist Muslims are F***ed up. Which they are.

Oh I'll agree with that. But so are Fundamentalist christians, catholics, bla bla everything.

[furrykef]

Yeah, but those generally aren't prone to bombing stuff (except maybe in Belfast, though I remember somebody in Belfast saying that things aren't really like what people say it's like).

[chief]

What about the IRA? Although they aren't as active now.

[Vlad Yvhv]

Free will? What about the religious fundamentalists/oppressors who don't want you to have any. The point is they think they are right and can't stand that their beliefs are challenged. This could apply to anyone.

It's always been up to humanity to draw the fine line between right/wrong, morality/immorality, recents events are simply the latest example even if it has gone on before any of us were born. It doesn't occur to people to take up the challenge of considering other possiblities.

I don't want to contradict myself but there's a difference between free-will and oppression. People who'd use phrases like 'must' 'have to' 'you have no choice' for the 'wrong reason.' People who'd talk to incite others instead of trying to persuade them.

At this point I'm sure religion has commited a crime and if the athiests are so concerned about it why don't they just file another lawsuit with a fair court? The net will only get you so far.

And finally it all leads around to it being challenged. That if your idea were absolute we wouldn't need 'others' to decide things for us and vice-versa(the state can also be wrong.)

Those who try to bend religion's context to suit their own purposes are guilty of bearing false witness... What happens to them is up to God (or whoever/whatever)... It doesn't matter if they're fundimentalists, the Pope, televangelists, regular preachers, monks, some crazy dude on a soap box, some crazy dude in a cave, or just some con artist out to fleece his followers... It's all the same. Pay no mind to them. They feed off of attention and give their religions bad names...

The concept of free will is that we're all free to screw up or act right on our own. In the end, we find out if we've screwed up too much or not... The purpose of religion is supposed to help us keep on track by giving us some guidelines to know what God (or who/whatever) would like us to do. There is no real way of knowing if we're on the right path until we die. So, we generally just try to do the best we can.

[The Man]

We shouldn't even give out opinions so I'll try to make a statement I think is best factual as possible.

The point is if any god wanted to be worshipped so absolutely he/she/it/they wouldn't have allowed any means which to challenge them. That's in addition to the possiblity they just don't exist but some prefer not to say anything on the subject.

There's evidence of multiple gods too so how can you be sure which is the right one? Ideas are being challenged all the time, this post for instance, and even as we speak elsewhere. One example is that the only one more powerful than me to delete this post if they don't like it is an admin on this forum not a god that might or might not exist. STOP.

I've had posts up for years with the same argument that have gone unaltered and I hope I've changed people's minds in the mean time.

In case you didn't get it or I confused you, that's there's too many means to contradict a god to know for sure, in debate and/or writing dna, and mathematical evidence. This debate already is enough.

Maybe one day the truth will register in your brain.

[Valerie Valens]

So what is the point here that you're trying to make, and how does it relate to the first post on this thread?

[Ratty Randnums]

Fundamentalist Muslims are F***ed up. Which they are.

Oh I'll agree with that. But so are Fundamentalist christians, catholics, bla bla everything.

Oh I agree, and as I always do when this point is made, I'll point out my favorite Jimmy Carter quote as I still think he said it best "A fundamentalist can never admit that they're ever wrong, because that would mean admitting God was wrong."

At this point I'm sure religion has commited a crime and if the athiests are so concerned about it why don't they just file another lawsuit with a fair court? The net will only get you so far.

Hm, has "religion" committed a crime? Well it has certainly incited violence and mass murder (also genocide) in the past, there's no denying it when you look at the facts.
Though still many will say that's not true, and that it (religion)'s true message is only twisted around when used to such ends, but take a look at some of the quotes I put forth on the last page (though this applies not just to Christianity but pretty much every religion depending on your definition of the word). I think killing someone because they work on Sunday or discrimination/persecution against women is a crime, even if the bible or quran encourages it, and I think discrimination and persecution based on race and "caste/class" is a crime, despite what Hinduism may say.
The simple answer is- has "religion" committed a crime? No, because religion is not alive and independent as such. Has it incited crimes throughout history, and given the cruel and ruthless a banner to hide behind? Yes.
As for a law suite I think the statute of limitations has run out on the crusades, and the witch hunts, and all the other less notorious atrocities, but that doesn't make the suffering experienced by the innocent at these times any less real.
Though I would say Conservative Christianity's (or more precisly those who preached and "voted god's will") support of discrimination against homosexuals as lately as 2004 was aiding and abetting a hate crime. But again, it all goes back to definitions.
And the big question this brings up is, why do we protect from criticism such literature just because it's branded under the name "religion"? If someone wrote a book saying we should kill every homosexual they would be panned and appauled, yet under the protection of the word "religion" such stuff is supposedly *absolutely above question or criticism*?

[The Man]

Hence why I wasn't at FUS for some time because it degenerated into the same thing over and over again but Rocky allows us to keep talking about the same thing again and again because some of us might be open to either possilibity and this is the kinds of discussion I obviously endorse.

I don't know about a limit on murder but I don't know if I want to care, I'm dead from a wmd, a meteor, or cancer at some point so I keep this stuff in mind as I enjoy my life.

Simply put, getting back on topic, maybe people should learn not to take religions/ideas/etc.,. too seriously.

And I guess Ratty you're techically right.

Edit-I thought Rocky closed the last topic, well before this one gets closed I'm going to say it's hard for people to believe in something that's incited crime like religion has. I also stated religion is the cause of problems just like this one. And if we don't hold it accountable more people might get hurt.

But I also have to argue religion had done good so...

[chief]

I'll close the topic if and when people start tossing out the "your a dick head!" remarks.

And the reason why these topics can exist is.. well People can say whatever they want and not agree with whatever they hear... I dont care. I just dont want some bashing and flame wars. Once those start I'll lock it, tell you all that you are morons and get on with my day.

But in till then.. Games on guys. You want to say something say it. JUST DON'T turn this into a flame war, or bash someone here because of his or her thoughts. I will personally kick your ass if you do. By kicking your ass I mean I have a nifty button that lets me warn and ban people. Its fun.

[furrykef]

Well I think anybody who disagree with me is a big fat poopyhead. And I don't mean if they disagree with me on this matter, but if they disagree with me on anything.

[chief]

Where in the bible did god create space?